Competitive Matchmaking Discussion

Cargo_Tokens

L3: Member
Feb 19, 2015
116
71
Grab some friends, group up to 3-4 and communicate and you'll do better.

you know I can't make friends...



In all seriousness though, something needs to be done about players leaving matches before they start kicking everyone. Not crashing/timing out, but clicking "Disconnect" because they don't like the map and/or team. And it would be nice to have an auto reconnect feature when someone (me) times out.
 

killohurtz

Distinction in Applied Carving
aa
Feb 22, 2014
1,016
1,277
... well, the first rule on Comp queueing is never solo q. Second rule is NEVER EVER FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOLO Q AS A SUPPORT... or you get your issue. Grab some friends, group up to 3-4 and communicate and you'll do better.

I think solo queueing should be just as viable an option as queueing with friends. If your rank is influenced by your individual performance as opposed to the match outcome, then good players will be able to move up to the ranks they belong in without being dragged down by teammates who can't keep up. Under the current system, solo players might just get stuck in the lowest ranks trying to carry bad teams forever
 
Aug 30, 2015
359
451
Under the current system, solo players might just get stuck in the lowest ranks trying to carry bad teams forever

Cough Cough, how League does it
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
I think solo queueing should be just as viable an option as queueing with friends. If your rank is influenced by your individual performance as opposed to the match outcome, then good players will be able to move up to the ranks they belong in without being dragged down by teammates who can't keep up. Under the current system, solo players might just get stuck in the lowest ranks trying to carry bad teams forever
THIS

The whole "Don't queue solo" mantra is systemic of bad ranking design. Just like "A good craftsman doesn't blame the tools" is BS because a good craftsman knows when the tools are bad and need replacing. A good player shouldn't be penalised because the ranking system is bad. The ranking system should be designed to allow good solo play and good group play. Any ranking system that only caters to one or the other is a bad system that should be reworked or replaced.

This is just a crutch for bad ranking design
... well, the first rule on Comp queueing is never solo q. Second rule is NEVER EVER FOR THE LOVE OF GOD SOLO Q AS A SUPPORT... or you get your issue. Grab some friends, group up to 3-4 and communicate and you'll do better.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
aa
Sep 5, 2010
6,394
5,571
I'm just a believer in the 'play with friends' mentality, damn my extrovertedness!

Now, to counter your point, if your rank is tied to individual performance, I feel like that just opens up a big exploit, and a big "NO, ME ONLY!" mentality. I feel like it wouldn't encourage team play. Making it so that your rank (and thus who you play with) is tied to just how you do individually, you may find that people will be extremely selfish, looking out for themselves and trying to grab up all the points they can so that they can level up as quickly as possible, completely removing the "team" in teamplay.

Now, say "nah, that will never happen!" and I guarentee it will, even after you let the system sort itself out. it's basic player psychology. You tie the reward to individual play, you'll get people who play like individuals. You make the rewards tied to the team effort, you'll get more attempts at cooperative play. It's basic play psychology and basic game theory. You don't have someone trying to lead the team? You be that person.

The other option, which may or may not be better (which I've seen games use to varying success) is to have two separate queues. Solo Q and Team Q. If you're alone, you can use Solo or Team Q, if you're brave. If you're with people, you'll only use Team Q. That way, it ensures that only solo players are against other solo players, so while you might still get bad teams, the other side has an equally likely chance for a bad team too.

Do I agree with what I said before is a crutch for bad ranking design? No. I wasn't commenting on the design, I was directly commenting on how you (you being a general term, no you specifically YM) play. You're playing alone in a team competitive match where you can go up against teams of multiple people, of course you're going to have a bad time you cotten headed ninnymuggens!

tl;dr: To me, it's a team ranking system, for a team based game. Play it with a team (2 or more people), you poops.
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
Frozen I hope you realize that most people don't have a lot of friends who play TF2 at a high level, and they certainly don't have a lot of friends who are available to participate every time they want to play. For the full experience, getting a full queue of 6 competent players means you have to:
  1. Have at least 5 friends on steam whose TF2 experience levels are similar to yours (which is already kind of hard for someone like me who has 4500+ hrs).
  2. Have all those 5 friends live in the same timezone.
  3. Have all those 5 friends be available whenever you want to play.
  4. Have all those 5 friends be willing to communicate, learn strategies, and work together at that time. (also not bothering anyone else in the house when talking, etc.)
  5. And if you want to keep playing and grind for a higher rank, you also need them to be available for a very long time to play several matches and make sure nobody gets bored and leaves during that time.
If you're able to meet all these requirements for "just playing with a team" whenever you want to, fucking great for you. But as you understand, most people don't have this luxury, and you shouldn't expect that from them.

The only reason I managed to reach Global Elite playing with friends in CS:GO is because CS:GO is an extremely popular competitive/E-sports game, and as such I was lucky enough that a lot of my friends happen to be very into that aspect of it. But TF2 is completely different since the competitive scene has been pretty much invisible for everyone outside the hardcore community for the past 8 years, so most people could hardly imagine TF2 being a competitive game (the cartoony graphics don't help). This will hopefully become less of an issue over time as MM and Twitch streaming TF2 becomes more popular, but right now I find it almost impossible to find anyone in my region who doesn't simply laugh at the notion of TF2 being played competitively.

I agree that basing ranks solely on individual performance would create a selfish and harmful environment, but that is absolutely not an excuse, nor motivation, to ignore just how much the matchmaking system sucks at finding players with similar skill and dedication to actually have a fair game, and having the ranking system penalize players who were just unlucky and managed to get placed in a shitty team (no matter how much they try to help that team and make the best of the situation) just makes it even worse. At the very least, they should try to implement a system where your rank is determined by the efforts you've made towards helping your team outside of the binary system of simply winning/not winning.
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
Do I agree with what I said before is a crutch for bad ranking design? No. I wasn't commenting on the design, I was directly commenting on how you (you being a general term, no you specifically YM) play. You're playing alone in a team competitive match where you can go up against teams of multiple people, of course you're going to have a bad time you cotten headed ninnymuggens!

tl;dr: To me, it's a team ranking system, for a team based game. Play it with a team (2 or more people), you poops.

Now you're literally saying I'm playing the game wrong.
I'm playing exactly how I expect tens of thousands of players to play.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
aa
Sep 5, 2010
6,394
5,571
I'm next expecting you to have 5 top-ranking friends, I'm not event expecting people to have the 5 friends to play with, I never said to play with exactly 5 friends. I merely said "Play with other people." If you want to set those (agreeably) ridiculous criteria for 'friends to play with', thats on you. I was just saying to play with other people and some voice chat and I guarentee you'll start doing better.

The system is still under stress-test conditions, it's still new! Despite the what, 24-30 hours it's been open to the public, I guarentee the system hasn't fully been able to sort players out yet, and with new people coming it, it's definitely not fully settled yet. You're going to get people in higher and lower skill levels with you for a while. It needs time to sort its shit out, as this isn't instant.

Now you're literally saying I'm playing the game wrong.
I'm playing exactly how I expect tens of thousands of players to play.

All I'm trying to say is if you're having trouble by yourself, maybe you should try and play with other people before you critique the system as harshly as you are. Get the full picture, from all points of view. Tens of thousands of people play with their friends too!
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
I'm next expecting you to have 5 top-ranking friends, I'm not event expecting people to have the 5 friends to play with, I never said to play with exactly 5 friends. I merely said "Play with other people." If you want to set those (agreeably) ridiculous criteria for 'friends to play with', thats on you. I was just saying to play with other people and some voice chat and I guarentee you'll start doing better.

The system is still under stress-test conditions, it's still new! Despite the what, 24-30 hours it's been open to the public, I guarentee the system hasn't fully been able to sort players out yet, and with new people coming it, it's definitely not fully settled yet. You're going to get people in higher and lower skill levels with you for a while. It needs time to sort its shit out, as this isn't instant.



All I'm trying to say is if you're having trouble by yourself, maybe you should try and play with other people before you critique the system as harshly as you are. Get the full picture, from all points of view. Tens of thousands of people play with their friends too!
If you think those criteria are ridiculous and that the problem can be remedied by just playing with 2-3 other random people then I think you fail to see what the problem is to begin with.
 
Last edited:

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
Dude, I've played as many matches in parties as I have out of parties

38 games, 31 gold medals for healing, 15 gold for support and still about 60% rank 1. This is a problem, and it's not with how I've been playing.
 

nitewalker

L2: Junior Member
Aug 5, 2014
64
141
i mean, its pretty clear that the issue is right now that groups can queue against single players, but it's a stress test. if they implemented systems to make the matches more balanced by matching groups with similarly sized groups, then queue times would go up and they would be getting significantly less data on how the hardware and software of the servers is actually functioning. i think you are misunderstanding what the purpose of the system being open right now is.
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
i mean, its pretty clear that the issue is right now that groups can queue against single players, but it's a stress test. if they implemented systems to make the matches more balanced by matching groups with similarly sized groups, then queue times would go up and they would be getting significantly less data on how the hardware and software of the servers is actually functioning. i think you are misunderstanding what the purpose of the system being open right now is.
No, it's not just that at all. It has more to do with how players are ranked based on their performance (or more accurately, how they're not) since your luck in getting matched with a good team plays too big of a role. Of course, these are just beta stress tests and all that, but we should still get to criticize the system in its current state to make sure it doesn't end up like this when MM actually launches.

Also, something very important to note is that people aren't magically better players just because you happened to queue with them. You can play with as many friends as you want but it doesn't matter if they're just as bad as those you'd have got matched with otherwise.
 
Last edited:

nitewalker

L2: Junior Member
Aug 5, 2014
64
141
No, it's not just that at all. It has more to do with how players are ranked based on their performance (or more accurately, how they're not) since your luck in getting matched with a good team plays too big of a role. Of course, these are just beta stress tests and all that, but we should still get to criticize the system in its current state to make sure it doesn't end up like this when MM actually launches.

Also, something very important to note is that people aren't magically better players just because you happened to queue with them. You can play with as many friends as you want but it doesn't matter if they're just as bad as those you'd have got matched with otherwise.

again, this is an issue with the fact that its a beta stress test development version of what the final product will look like. players are clumped closer together right now and there is very little accuracy in skill rating because if skill divisions became more prominent and separated players more effectively, then fewer matches would be happening and it would slow down valves data collection process. currently 16 ranks exist and most players are sitting in the first few ranks. do you honestly think that a lack of skill based matchmaking is going to be an issue once the system is out and functional for several months, once ranks are properly distributed and more people are playing regularly?
 

nitewalker

L2: Junior Member
Aug 5, 2014
64
141
i mean, valve has designed and implemented matchmaking successfully for two of the largest esports games that exist and i'm sure have learned at least something about designing matchmaking systems during that time. do you think they are going to throw out everything that they've learned in creating those systems for tf2?
 

Yrr

An Actual Deer
aa
Sep 20, 2015
1,308
2,743
stuck at low ranks cause every time we're about to win the enemy abandon

pls preserve the mmr gained somehow
 

Lain

lobotomy success story
aa
Jan 8, 2015
724
757
i mean, valve has designed and implemented matchmaking successfully for two of the largest esports games that exist and i'm sure have learned at least something about designing matchmaking systems during that time. do you think they are going to throw out everything that they've learned in creating those systems for tf2?

Dota 2 maybe, but CSGO has major issues with matchmaking that they have neglected to fix. I don't think it will change in tf2.
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
@nitewalker your attitude seems very dismissive of feedback. If you've got feedback of your own to add, or have opinions on feedback that others are suggesting great, but can you stop with the "Valve know what they're doing" and "That's not what they're looking for feedback on" attitude?
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
i mean, valve has designed and implemented matchmaking successfully for two of the largest esports games that exist and i'm sure have learned at least something about designing matchmaking systems during that time. do you think they are going to throw out everything that they've learned in creating those systems for tf2?
I don't know about DOTA 2 because I don't play it, but as someone who has played in every rank from GN4 to Global in CS:GO, let me tell you that CS:GO's matchmaking system has always suffered, and still suffers, from a lot of the same exact issues I just mentioned. So I have no trouble imagining TF2's matchmaking system meeting a similar fate if no drastic changes are made.

For example, if you solo queue as a Supreme in CS:GO, it's not uncommon to get matched with a team of 4 LEs, and against a team of 5 Supremes. And when you inevitably lose the match, even if you managed to get more kills than your entire team combined and made major efforts towards encouraging your team to win the match against all odds, you still LOSE MMR. Fucking ridiculous, if you ask me.
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,107
6,116
Let's break it down into individual items that we can discuss:
KBfYcPR.png

I'll be abbreviating Individual/Team performance as IP/TP.

IP GOOD, TP GOOD: Making MMR do anything but go up would be silly.

IP GOOD, TP BAD: Basing MMR on individual performance alone promotes people to be selfish and hog frags/caps/whatever, but basing MMR on team performance alone can kinda blow when you lose a match but are otherwise performing excellently. I recently had a match where our team's medic healed more than 5x the other team's medic, but we lost (and presumably the medic lost MMR for it).

IP BAD, TP GOOD: When I play with other people from this community, I'm pretty consistently one of the worst players. I've been gaining MMR for winning matches, but rather quite slowly. I'm okay with this. Losing points for being on the winning team feels like it would be slipping into "scoring off of individual performance would promote players to be selfish" territory, but lower performance players will get left behind their team if they're consistently under-performing.

IP BAD, TP BAD: Making MMR do anything but go down would be silly.

My conclusion:

Winning a match should make your MMR go up no matter what, but how much you contributed to that win should determine exactly how much MMR you get.

Losing a match should either make your MMR go up or down, depending on some sort of balance between individual and team performance. If an individual on a losing team has the same (or better) level of performance as individuals on the enemy team, then they probably shouldn't be losing MMR for that.



This is, of course, assuming we stick with a single value that determine's a player's worth. If we really want to draw a distinction between an individual's skill level and an individual's ability to play on a team, why not just measure those independently? I'm not sure how this would help match players together (or that IP and TP scores are the way to go), but I feel like the solution to this problem lies outside of having just a single value that determine's someones "worth."

(In a way, MM already does this: medals are somewhat a measure of someone's individual performance. However, I don't know that these are actually taken into account when matching players.)