PL Fountain a13

a hybrid payload

  1. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    Fountain - a hybrid payload

    Adopted from Tyler, who made versions a1-a8 (a8 was never released).

    Television has a scale. It has other properties, but what television has to a dominant degree is a certain scale and the power to enforce it. No one has been able to describe the scale as it is experienced. We know some of its properties, though.
    • Television does not vary. The trivial is raised up to power in it. The powerful is lowered toward the trivial.
    • The power behind it resembles the power of no-action, the powerful passive.
    • It is bewitching.
    • It interferes with growth, conflict, and destruction, and these forces are different in its presence.
    • "Entertainment" is an unsatisfactory word for what it encloses or projects or makes possible.
    • No good has come of it.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020
  2. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    a9 changes:

    Overall:
    -more artpass (by tyler)
    -various small adjustments to brushwork for neatness / architectural realism

    A:
    -adjusted stairs on cliff-side route for faster blue rotations and to feel less cramped
    -moved health/ammo on cliff-side route into building and adjusted health to medium to allow better hold for blue
    -removed stairs and moved handrail on red side of same route to make rotations longer for red
    -added small ammo pack to roof to better hint at jump route, adjusted rock to make prop jump usable for 100% speed classes

    B:
    -changed side building to make roof area usable

    C:
    -adjusted prop jump route to high ground to be easier / more obvious for red

    D:
    -no changes (reverted to a7 version from a8 incomplete unreleased version from tyler)
     
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  3. Idolon

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    some thoughts

    upload_2020-7-1_20-34-52.png
    upload_2020-7-1_20-36-40.png
    upload_2020-7-1_20-37-51.png
    upload_2020-7-1_20-38-57.png
    upload_2020-7-1_20-42-33.png
     
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  4. tyler

    aa tyler

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  5. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    Test notes:

    A is still as chokey as ever. Changes may have helped but it still plays kind of the same. The red holds are pretty fun but blue just has shit options and its not that fun for them. Need changes here beyond health kit adjustments.

    B still plays weird, nobody used the roof. Need to make that roof an area that is accessible to everyone. It feels like there are some hold areas on B that are hinted at but, if they even do work, nobody is using them. Need to make these more obvious, probably by making them different entirely. Force blue to use more of the area around B instead of just taking the innermost route.

    Speaking of, the innermost route at B needs some consideration - its kind of useful for red at A, but mostly as a shortcut and sniper balcony, and red should probably have a teleporter anyways, so the shortcut isn't that valuable. After A, that shortcut can be used for defense, but it basically never works because you're going against half of blue team on the cart through a 128w doorway - You're going to die without an uber, which you probably don't have, since you just lost A. (Also, if red is going to flank blue on this point, they should be using the sheds! They're much more fun.) For blue, this route is pretty useful, but its not particularly fun? The angles are all awkward. I see multiple approaches to this area, will need to experiment.

    Need to watch demos to get opinions on C, D. I already know D will be redesigned to have the pit pushed further forward and be more like Upward, where the challenge is pushing a short distance within an easily held room. (Fountain already kind of plays like this, the cart tends to roll once it gets around the fence.) I may try a different approach by having the cart work its way around the hold before dumping in, but the geometry of that is less simple and to the point... Will need to experiment.
     
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  6. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    a10

    The concept of a local or national culture is a paradoxical proposition not only because of the present obvious antithesis between rooted culture and universal civilization but also because all cultures, both ancient and modern, seem to have depended for their intrinsic development on a certain cross-fertilization with other cultures. Regional or national cultures must today, more than ever, be ultimately constituted as locally inflected manifestations of "world culture." It is surely no accident that this paradoxical proposition arises at a time when global modernization continues to undermine, with ever increasing force, all forms of traditional, agrarian-based, autochthonous culture. We have to regard regional culture not as something given and relatively immutable but rather as something which has, at least today, to be self-consciously cultivated. Sustaining any kind of authentic culture in the future will depend ultimately on our capacity to generate vital forms of regional culture while appropriating alien influences at the level of both culture and civilization.

    A:
    -reverted patio change
    -raised blue bridge and adjacent room (by patio) by 64 units. added railing to patio room exit.
    -bridged building over to tiny little chimney building thing. makes more sense for detailing, and also nullifies jumping classes a tiny bit (jump route was too awkward to be worth keeping anyways).

    B:
    -removed inner high ground route. porch is accessed on other side, interior area is just an ammo dead-end. this route isn't super useful for red and kind of shortcuts the blue push to B in a way that feels highly variable, which i want to avoid for consistency in holds. hoping this makes players (blue and red) play more in the shed area behind the B corner.
    -added route through pool-side building
    -replaced roof area from a9 with proper balcony accessible to all classes via staircase

    C:
    -no changes

    D:
    -grounded trash can

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  7. Another Bad Pun

    aa Another Bad Pun dare to meme

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    fountain
     
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  8. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    a10a

    Fixed a couple of random glitches and did a small layout update.

    C:
    -reworked outdoor flank to be more of a gameplay space than a corridor. harder to camp as pyro.
    -fixed funny payload cart path
    -fixed prop jump that didn't actually work
    -added chin

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  9. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    In New York's East Harlem there is a housing project with a conspicuous rectangular lawn which became an object of hatred to the project tenants. A social worker frequently at the project was astonished by how often the subject of the lawn came up, usually gratuitously as far as she could see, and how much the tenants despited it and urged that it be done away with. When she asked why, the usual answer was, "What good is it?" or "Who wants it?" Finally one day a tenant more articulate than the others made this pronouncement: "Nobody cared what we wanted when they built this place. They threw our houses down and pushed us here and pushed our friends somewhere else. We don't have a place around here to get a cup of coffee or a newspaper even, or borrow fifty cents. Nobody cared what we needed. But the big men come and look at that grass and say, 'Isn't it wonderful! Now the poor have everything!'"

    This tenant was saying what moralists have said for thousands of years: Handsome is as handsome does. All that glitters is not gold.

    She was saying more: There is a quality even meaner than outright ugliness or disorder, and this meaner quality is the dishonest mask of pretended order, achieved by ignoring or suppressing the real order that is struggling to exist and to be served.

    A:
    -opened up shed area to make it less of a pain to push into, and also hopefully making it more obvious as a holding area for red team

    B:
    -fixed fence that you could shoot through. apparently tyler did this on purpose?
    -added door that shuts after B is capped to make The Good Route less good

    C:
    -moved a fence back a bit
    -tweaked deathpit flank door a bit to block a sightline into blue spawn
    -developed same cave area a bit
    -added windows overlooking point. not sure why

    D:
    -no changes

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  10. Idolon

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    Thanks to Chin (smig) for suggestions on changing B / C connecting area.

    A:
    -redesigned opening area because red doesn't actually use it for much of anything and it feels really weird and cramped and i don't like it. after looking at some classic tf2 maps, i think this area needs to be more natural and open to just help the map feel more like a real place rather than a big clusterfuck of sheds

    B:
    -opened up dead-end diagonal shed to be a better hold area. added medium health
    -added funny stairs to water area to give red more mobility, easier to flank into shack area and use more of the area to give blue a hard time
    -added wall onto bridge for blue cover
    -garage door will not open until B is capped
    -reworked side building so red can still enter while in cover but it does not connect to C. upgraded health to medium
    -downgraded health in balcony room to small

    C:
    -disconnected the Good Route from B entirely so Blue is forced to use other routes. connected Good Route back into the main room, added medium health / ammo
    -added balcony for high ground exit so blue can use it more easily and so red can prop jump up more easily / obviously

    D:
    -rework to put fountain in center instead of at the end. minimal changes to the Actual Layout in response to this, mostly because i don't have a ton of ideas

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  11. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    a12a

    A:
    -no changes

    B:
    -added medium health to shack flank to hopefully encourage blue usage of the area

    C:
    -various small adjustments for detailing

    D:
    -no changes

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  12. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    a13

    -reduced max map time from 10 minutes to 8 minutes

    A:
    -full rework of blue's approach to the point. the old one didn't have a proper space for players to "duke it out" and the gameplay was stale as a result. the aim here is to open up the flow for both teams to be more fun for everyone without reducing the difficulty too much.
    -balcony on top of elevator is gone. i wanted to try and keep it in because it feels like an iconic part of the map, but it just doesn't fit in a design for A that is meant to encourage red to push forward and play more aggressively.

    B:
    -lowered red side of choke by 64 units (without an overall reduction in height difference for the point) in order to make the main choke slightly easier to push (as well as make red holds require better use of the sheds) and also make the red half of the point easier to defend.
    -lowered left sentry nest to make it more connected to point area
    -added conveyor belt over choke to try and hamper blue demomen from jumping to red spawn
    -made bounds of netting a bit more obvious

    C:
    -redesigned platform on red side of main room to try and reorient defense towards the middle of the room instead of just the back half
    -moved tall machinery thing back 256 units to enlarge front area, added cover to front area to make it more of a gameplay space and offer better route into B
    -added ramp up to door exiting brewery to give red a more obvious advantage at that choke

    D:
    -red fwd spawn becomes a dropdown
    -reworked red hold area behind finale for better sentry nest

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  13. Another Bad Pun

    aa Another Bad Pun dare to meme

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    This will be a good map. Do not lose hope
     
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  14. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    some fountain #thoughts

    A got a total redo and people are slowly learning to play it, though I don't think it plays like I hoped. Here's what I had imagined a good forward red defense would look like:

    upload_2020-9-3_19-3-6.png

    There are two main holding areas, (1) which is closed quarters and doesn't have great control over the open routes, but is necessary to hold to prevent blue from gaining an important high ground, and (2) which covers most of the open area. There are some issues with assuming red players will hold here - in addition to the fact that players may be used to how the old A is meant to be held, these spots are not obvious, they don't always offer great cover or retreat, and maybe most importantly, they have no synergy. Let's take a look at Gorge:

    [​IMG]

    Here we can see a greater number of positions and better retreat options, but maybe most important is that these positions share a lot of common ground in the area they cover. Players on red are choosing different positions based on their class and intended strategy, but they are going to be attacking the same blue players from multiple angles. On Fountain A, this is barely the case, and instead red team is trying to hold two completely different fronts. It's not great, and the area needs to be refocused.



    B is probably the most consistent point in the map right now. I'm not sure how much people are having fun, but it seems balanced. In recent testing it has been the only point to net red a win besides D.

    One question that has come up is this corner choke. What if there was more area to fight in back here? I don't know. I can't tell how people feel about this. I think the corner might be fine as it is if the rest of the point area becomes better to play in.

    upload_2020-9-3_19-20-47.png

    I think the significant issue with this point is that red isn't really sure where the "good" hold is once they lose the corner. The team becomes confused and unfocused if there isn't a good engineer nest to galvanize the team, but this doesn't happen by default. Here are the main holds:

    upload_2020-9-3_19-23-57.png

    (1) is intended to be the default hold, but it doesn't work great. Good engineer holds typically have the engineer built in the back with their teammates up in front, relying on the engineer for resources, and letting the sentry take out enemies that overextend. However, this doesn't exactly work when the area isn't already a good place for the majority of the team to hold from, is it? The covered area for the sentry and the covered area for the player is the same spot. If you try to hold out in front of the (1) sentry spot, you're subject to sightlines and height disadvantage. Not great.

    upload_2020-9-3_19-48-51.png

    (2) and (3) are more difficult hold positions that end up being much better for red team, as players can actually hold in an area with cover while defending the cart from a distance, and they can fall back to be protected by a sentry. This dynamic could be improved in these areas, but the point is that this dynamic should apply to (1), since this is where the majority of the team will enter the area. (2) and (3) should be riskier hold positions, but not necessary to not get completely rolled.



    C is weird because typically payload points are at the end of an open area to help ensure that blue team has cleared the open area of red players before capping. Typically red will also be limited on their entrances to the area because this helps ensure red has a hard time pushing back out once they have lost that ground.

    C currently fails because it is just on the wrong side of a choke, and it is possible (if not frequent) that blue cheeses the cap without actually pushing red out of the open area. So, one possible conclusion is to move the point in and increase the difficulty of pushing the cart to the CP:

    upload_2020-9-3_18-39-20.png

    However, this doesn't solve the issue of being limited on their entrances. There are three routes in and out of this building, both usable by either team. For this to work, the routes out of the building would need to be redesigned such that blue has the advantage once they occupy that ground - and there's not really a good way to do that here. Also, the outdoor area is pretty good for spamming into the building, so blue would likely still be cheesing the cap even in this scenario. So:

    upload_2020-9-3_18-35-18.png

    What if we move the point even further out? This design would meet both of the typical requirements for a point: At the end of an open area, and red's options into this open area are limited. The hold at the old C point spot would exist, but there would be another layer of holding available to red (which has happened on some tests).

    To help balance this out, red would probably spawn at last instead of a forward. This may cause some timing issues with C as it is since blue would be reaching further into the building before encountering red team, but that can be adjusted by delaying the door opening after capping B, much like how Barnblitz B's turntable gives red time to set up. There is also already a decent amount of slack built into the start of C, which is typical of payload maps for pretty much this exact reason.



    D plays decently but has sightline issues and lacks things to do for a lot of classes. It is an open area for DM where snipers and soldiers rule. There is an area to the side that can be an interesting area to contest from a gameplay perspective (as evidenced by Wilson continuously planting a blue teleporter in the back area, due to neglect from red team), but it doesn't actually offer a large advantage to attacking last. You're still subject to a lot of the same sightlines and you get no height advantage.

    So, for redesigning the point, I want to try and think of the point as MAIN and FLANK, where MAIN is where the cart goes and is a more open area to "duke it out" (where the same sightlines may apply), and FLANK, a secondary area for both teams to contest that offers high ground and cover for both teams that will help with controlling the area. This would be similar to the buildings around Badwater last, or the rooms around Upward last, etc. Some area that is ultimately necessary to control, but not directly connected to the cart path, requiring both teams to split their attention.

    upload_2020-9-3_18-54-31.png

    You'll have to use your imagination here for what FLANK would look like. Imagine there's an area with good cover that can take out the main sentry nest from out of range.
     
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