TF2Maps and Potato’s MvM Servers Present: Mappers vs Machines

Discussion in 'Contests' started by LeSwordfish, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Qohen

    Qohen L1: Registered

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    boooooooo, replace this guy, jk thanks for these amazing community related events!
     
  2. Benoist3012

    Benoist3012 L3: Member

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    Poor sword, we are really working hard to get you that shortlist asap :(
     
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  3. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Thanks for being so understanding, by the way. Taking this long to judge is the downside of getting so many entries, but I'd take it any day over people not entering!

    Medals may take another day or so after the shortlist, but rest assured we're working on that too. If you want to make that quick, make sure your tf2maps account and steam account are linked.
     
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  4. Qohen

    Qohen L1: Registered

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    It's sunday Sword, don't fail us now
     
  5. Benoist3012

    Benoist3012 L3: Member

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    If we post it at 23:59:59 we are good :p
     
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  6. Qohen

    Qohen L1: Registered

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    I'm watching you boys! I'm kidding take your time, i know its hard to go through all those entries, hope you're enjoying the playtime tho
     
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  7. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Shortlist!

    Whew! Sorry this took so long - but then, if it wasn't as long we wouldn't have had so many great maps. In the end we decided to extend it to sixteen maps - between us, there were sixteen choices we knew we couldn't do without.

    Our shortlist thus is:
    Congratulations to those that made it on, and commiserations to those that were not! I'm going to get to work on medals as soon as this post goes up, so those will be with you all tomorrow at the latest.

    If you were not selected, in this spoiler below should be a ton of helpful comments from our expert panel of judges - some of us were unable to play all maps, so a few may have been missed off. To see the demo files for your map and check out the feedback, go to the potato servers STV site.

    AMF
    By Sword
    I believe Amf is your first map, right? You should be proud of it. It's full of creative ideas, acceptably detailed for an early work, and has a reasonably good layout. However very many of the creative ideas - both in the map and in the popfile - don't work to make the map better. I like the tanks breaking through the walls, but the secret passage doesn't add anything, and many of the bots are pointlessly different to the usual. I think you need to think harder about what each of these cool ideas adds to the map, and be ruthless in removing any without a good answer. The inside areas are super dark, and the "museum" idea is neat but underdone - a tank diorama is a cool idea but how do you resist having curving terrain, roads, and dozens of vehicles, not a 3v3 on a flat plane? Check out the Imperial War Museum or Duxford Air Museum for good real-life examples. The layout doesn't flow terribly well, I think, with the spiral inside the museum still confusing me after multiple rounds. The outside areas are too big, I think - you might want to look into changing the layout so bots don't have to go all the way around the outside of the museum (send them through! It's a cool idea, use it!)​

    By Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The walls around the hatch are really nice, they offer great cover spots I don't have much to say on that, but the space around the hatch feels too open, some props on the road would help making mover cover spots and sentry nests.

    The routes:
    The routes aren't that great, what I would call the "road route" is missing a lot of cover spots, some cars or trucks on the road would be good.
    The "museum route" is good but on the 2nd floor only, the first floor is lacking covering spots and good sentry nests, another issue is the tank route, I don't get why the tank would destroy a wall to get inside the museum when it can simply go through the door frame.

    The front:
    The front isn't bad, but I would like some elevated areas on the sides it's a bit frustating to be forced defending on "beach entrance", some ground heigth changes on the beach would be good too, it's too flat rigth now, and we are a bit too close from the museum perhaps make it a bit bigger?

    Waves:

    Normal:
    The normal mission was awesome I have nothing to say on, it's perfect.

    Overall comment:
    As you were during review, your map has a feel of late alpha despite having B7 in the name but everyone has his own style of developement I won't bother you with that, your map has potential and I believe if you do some of my suggestions it will greatly improve the gameplay on your map.
    by Egan
    So we played normal mode, you were there, so you know. We didn't have the bots push us past the beach except for the tank but we delt with that individually. It's kinda unfortunate cause the big museum building looks really weird but it also could have been interesting to play around, and the outdoor route looks interesting too...

    I think you should give the defenders a place to stand around here (where i'm standing) http://i.imgur.com/f1OujCz.jpg , some sort of height / military checkpoint sort of thing (made of brushes, preferrably, instead of props) so the start doesn't feel so flat. Doing so would also let you increase the difficulty since pushing players off the beach would be less critical to their success - them having a new height location here to try to defend from.

    The front beach area was pretty dark, and I don't think I like how horizontally flat the intro is where the robots all drop down from, I can't really see any coming from where they do come from when standing on the beach, and having more varied drops could be more interesting gameplay / style wise.

    I think that a lot of the map geometry around the road / hatch feel long and overly flat. It might be cool if the hatch was a bit closer towards the museum, or the entrance to the museum from that height had something else in front of it for people to stand on / bots to route around.​

    by Yrr
    Not much to say beyond some weird routing
    BEACHFRONT
    by Sword
    I wasn't able to play this map, I'm afraid.​

    by Yrr
    Awkward layout
    You can defend the front from the hatch?
    Tunnel is weird
    Really short​

    by Egan
    The map length might be okay, its a bit small, but it feels small especially because of how infrequently the robots use anything more than just the opening very flat layout at the start.

    The front is generally very flat making combat feel pretty uninteresting. http://i.imgur.com/mJOmbZZ.jpg You could get away with just having the ground go up and down more varied (slightly extreme though - at least the height of players) with displacements (take a look at cp_osiris on the site for an example of what I mean - http://i.imgur.com/6k7g7eM.jpg ).

    It was also a bit annoying that the front side of the lower pit opening was hard to hit robots with splash damage with, my rockets could easily just skirt past them towards the skybox brushes. That was a bit annoying for the VERY START of an mvm level...

    The lower tunnel thing at the start was also very strange. It was winding and weird and it wasn't super useful to stand in. I guess it's similar to a pit to knock robots into, but the opening is so open and flat. It's just very strange - we didn't use it much.

    The detail was simple but was nice, and as short as the map was it was still sometimes enjoyable that it was quick to move quickly around and across different routes of the map. I think with some balance tweaks with the less utilised areas, and maybe mixing up some of the flatness it could be enjoyable sometimes.​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    I got trouble finding your hatch the first I played your map, I go out of spawn, I don't see the hatch I had no idea where to go and I ended up at the front without knowing where the hatch, that's a major issue, any red spawn on mvm leads on the hatch the probably the first thing you see when going out of spawn on any mvm map.
    The layout for the hatch is missing covering spots & sentry nests I have no idea how we can defend it on harder mission, second problem is that it's missing ammo packs and health kits near the hatch, I only see small health kits and they are bit too far away.

    The route:
    Your map doesn't have any bomb path arrow showing which path the robots are gonna take, on top of that what we could suppose as a route for the robot ends up not being one, and robots take a shortcut that you don't even know about the first time you play the map, take a look at that screenshot: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....700/9CA3C88E55E70155238B886E8D03FB5307E9BD7E/
    Green is the expected route, orange is the real and shortcut route robots took, and I had no idea this route existed until robots went there, this is really bad and should be fixed.

    The front:
    The front layout is flat and open we don't have cover spots or good sentry nests, on top of that we have a "square hole?" that serves no purpose, said hole leads to a large underground area that is never used, I don't really know what you intended there but that seems useless to be honest.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    The normal mission is okayish but with the current layout it's hard to tell if it's balanced or not.

    Overall comment:
    The map needs more signs and needs bomb path arrow, and the spawn closer to the hatch, I really wonder how defenders can protect the hatch if they die mid wave on a advanced mission and respawn behind the robots they have no chances to kill the bomb carrier.​

    CANYONPUSH
    by Sword
    I'm glad to see someone's doing this! I'm not sure that this interpretation of it entirely works, though. Do we really need to start by waiting for the robots to cross half the map? I'd suggest trying to use entities to fake what Left 4 Dead does dynamically, and make sure the bots are constantly spawning close to and harrying the players. Forcing the cart back to the start makes it very repetitive to play, and harms the fiction of the game. The detailing is generally underdone (some areas look copied straight from Coaltown) and sometimes very dark, but the village area at least has a nice sense of place. One other thing I spotted was that it doesn't look much fun to play engineer - constantly running to catch up - but that a teleporter is basically necessary.​

    by Yrr
    Weird variant tbh, red attacking is confusing
    Playing the same payload map 5 times in a row isnt as fun as defending a point for 5 waves imo
    Engineer has to be constantly playing catch-up
    Lot of displacement seams you can get stuck in
    Capped last, lost because still huge amounts of bots left and no time to fight them​

    by Egan
    The map gameplay was very slow, and you didn't give enough cash in between the waves for how long they went on for.

    There was also a lot of downtime between the waves because of how slow pushing the cart out of the cave was - you could easily start the cart outside the cave. And also that you couldn't push the cart for several extra seconds into the round so we just stood there doing nothing for a while.

    The entrance-way out of the cave was also rather flat. http://i.imgur.com/NrGEpWi.jpg There was height on either side of the cart path, but - because we had to push the cart - half our team couldn't use that and had to be bait for a long time if we wanted to move along at all - typically yes when the round starts. It was frustrating because I had to sit there and take all the spam from the weak starting bots I knew I could handle otherwise, and then walk back between each life.

    The timer for rounds, while maybe necessary to add balance, really was not enjoyable. One round we got right up near the hatch but couldn't push through, and because the round timer ran out we lost that round, but it was nearly 10 minutes long, and we had to redo it with the same one upgrade from last time (not enough cash for more). I think if you're going to use the round timer there should be a more reliable way to add time, maybe every boss killed adds time, or just have another checkpoint near there.

    You may also just need to shorten the map by half, OR have less waves but also add in a forward upgrade station / spawn room that players can unlock / use their 'more money' from. We didn't end up finishing the normal mode, and we were nearing an hour in playtime...

    Maybe a staged payload map could be enjoyable, where it's just 3 shorter stages you push through. Would result in easier-to-see progress, also wouldn't have to push the same route over and over (6-7 times). Would also get less annoying failing a mission because you likely haven't played that stage all that much.​

    by Benoist
    I've selected your map in my final list but other judges didn't agree with me, and I know probably why they didn't accept your map.
    The first issue is the mission itself with the gamemode, the mission shall display everything in support, we don't get that the wave is infinite and we have to push to the end in order to defeat the wave.
    The second problem if we win a wave the payload resets back to start this makes the map very repetitive, a normal mission with 3 waves and 3 different map stages can resolve the problem.​

    CARGOSHIP
    by Sword
    You've done pretty well with an unusual theme in some places but... Less well in others. Last is a mess of grilles and struts, very difficult to read at a distance and really kinda ugly. I think too much of the start area is made of props to be entirely enjoyable (you're restricted to the scale of the cargo ships, crane, etc), but the layout seems to work well enough within its restrictions. One thing I noticed was that the tank was unusually tough for Normal mode.​

    by Yrr
    Messy/boring geo, nothing rly memorable
    by Egan
    The front sections of the map were very dark, and it was difficult to find pickups around there. The front layout felt very boxy since it was mostly made of containers - there wasn't much subtly in combat maneuvers since everything takes place over 256 unit blocks.

    The overall layout was probably also too simplistic. After playing just one round I feel like we had got the most we could get out of it. I kinda wish there were areas that traded vulnerability for strategic placements, so that players had options they could weigh in their minds throughout but also at the start of each wave for setup locations. http://i.imgur.com/J1AONvI.jpg I think part of the problem is that bots all drop down and take the same flat routes out - could be interesting if they were given a height route somewhere.

    The first tank wave was surprisingly tough for normal mode, we only beat it when the tank was at the hatch. Should probably set its health at least 15-20% lower.
    by Benoist
    No comments.
    CHASE
    This map was disqualified due to crashing on startup, i'm afraid.

    CITYTOWER
    by Sword
    I wasn't able to play this map, sorry.​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The layout of your hatch is bad, it's low ground and inside some kind of building? It's missing covering spots, and with bots comming for higher ground it makes the hatch difficult to defend, the space around your hatch is too small and engie can't sit near the hatch to protect it.

    The routes:
    Your map features 2 routes, they don't have any covering spots or healtkits ammo packs along the way it makes defending really hard.

    The front:
    The front has no ground changes and is a small area, the elevated area next to it is nice but it needs cover spot, see coaltown.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    I can't really comment your normal mission, you haven't analyzed the navmesh and so the bot couldn't attack us making the mission really really easy.​

    by Egan
    The map routes are quite flat and empty. Result is a rather uninteresting area to defend / fight in. The combat of the first area is awkward especially as the only height to defend from is on the right, but if we want to split our forces then people would have to defend from the ground which isn't fun because it's so flat there. http://i.imgur.com/TUKNUUS.jpg There should be another spot to defend from, or more varied subtle 'maybe' spots. Should do that across the entire length of the map, since it all has the same vibe.

    It's hard to find the upgrade station at the front.

    You gave us way too much money! The last few waves each gave us >2000.

    by Yrr

    lots of invisible dead-ends
    boring geometry, long open corridors with no cover
    hatch is low ground with a single spawn exit and bot high ground the entire way, with no cover
    short range enemies when we all have high ground way out of their range, and your solution to displace us is to just teleport engineers behind us, not fun
    bonk scouts reinforce the idea that you didnt know how to dislodge people from the hold spot so you just made bots bypass them instead of overwhelming them
    COMMUNE
    by Sword
    I didn't have a chance to play this, sorry!​

    by Yrr
    Lots of invisible walls
    Payload seems like a weird choice for mvm
    Confusing layout, way to front from spawn isnt obvious
    Huge, open, unteresting geo, not fun to defend the cart
    Finding an upgrade station from the cart when youre halfway across the map is annoying
    Cart not resetting is also weird
    Snipers on a map as huge as this are a nuisance cause they just go wherever and harass us from a distance, but to go deal with them we have to leave the cart less defended cause theyre miles away
    Parachuting crit soldier has no indication that its coming, its just suddenly there, shooting crit spam
    Insanely long wait between some bots in wave 5
    Fighting crit heavies from a distance is the worst, im just getting shredded even trying to approach them​

    by Benoist
    Even if I had done this idea with MvM Meets ;D I found the idea really cool, I'm not sure if I can give a proper judgement on this as this more payload than mvm, but here my thougths on your map, the front is great we have cover spots and sentry nests it's good, howerver it's lacking healthkits so that makes front defending really hard.
    The town itself is great with many cover spots, it would be a good payload map but it's a bit too flat, but despite the creative idea and nice map this map has flaws that made it borring and unfun to play, the first issue is the mission it takes too long to play, we have spent an hour(not counting in between wave time) doing your advanced mission I would have expected something around 40 mins.
    The second problem is with the payload itself somewhere in the town robots just stop pushing it they get near the payload and no longer goes for it like if they were pushed, that really made the mission borring, finally it was missing a normal mission and for that we could have disqualified it but we didn't, what I'd like to see for your map is more health at front, a normal mission, not long wave, payload fixed, make the town less "flat" if these points are fixed we will probably have a better gameplay.​

    by Egan
    Your map has some cool style going on, the beach feels neat, and it's kinda cool fighting into the city streets. The map routes though aren't fun to defend from robots against, and the normal mission went on for far too long.

    I really don't like that there are only two routes to the beach, the gate which is the shortest also is where bots are going through, and if any crit bots (bosses often) are going through there then there is no way you can too. So if, as a scout, I know there is money on the beach to be collected, I have to roam all the way around to the back entrance which is also just opposite the gate exit - meaning if the crit bots see me they just turn around and instantly destroy me anyway!! http://i.imgur.com/axKl8YI.jpgThere needs to be another route that hooks the city up to the beach (even if it becomes closed after the bots take a capture point after the gate), and ideally you should cut the sightlines from either side of that road just after the beach so I don't get crit sniped from the whole length of it.

    I also don't like that a lot of the combat around the cart track feels very flat, all the heights you can take to defend against bots going down the paths are really far away, or it's "height" made by props, which aren't easy to use as cover / to fight with / around. I think you could be a lot more unique with the bot's payload cart layout, making it go through tighter chokes that players could take advantage of. I think you should make this fountain http://i.imgur.com/OdvjADB.jpg a building where players get height advantage over the bots, but ones where spys / snipers become a nusience, etc. Those sorts of things would make it a lot more fun to think about where to set up.

    Also it seems weird that the tank payload cart doesn't get used much - for its gun firing thing. That should be going off as much as possible causing destruction everywhere for something interesting. Right now it just seems like a gimmick because the map would probably play out the exact same if the bots just used a regular flag!

    It also took us nearly an hour to finish the mission, and we only were able to finish it because bots were broken(?) and couldn't push the cart all the way to the capture point - allowing us to actually kill them before they won.​


    DAMM
    by Sword
    Others liked this more than me so I expect they'll have written more. I think the bots coming from both directions at once isn't great because it prevents us from setting up and forces us to split up, or sprint from one end of the map to another. I like the container side, but the train side is less good: limited access to heights, and at ground levels feels like a bunch of corridors. The basic environment is really cool, though.​

    by Yrr
    nice fog skyline, awkward geo
    knowing which side the bots are going to come from so we can set up would be nice
    ok spawning them at both ends in the same wave is lame​

    by Egan
    The map looks okay visually with the fog and the high damn. Why is your map called damm with two Ms, by the way?

    The layout isn't very fun to play on. A lot of it was created by containers and fence props placed around, which don't allow players to use the areas for many interesting gameplay scenarios. http://i.imgur.com/FbQAlqc.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/7bTd5pT.jpg You can't really climb them unless you're a jumping class, and the height you get is the same across them all (latter relevant to first screenshot).

    The normal wave difficulties are really sparse. There was a lot of waiting involved. The split attack force was interesting but I wish it was utilised more and in more interesting ways. We played normal mode though. I assume it got better in higher difficulties, but I wish it was that cool in normal mode also.

    I think that the map length could have been cut 1/3 off so that players didn't have to walk as far, but you could then have added more bots / difficulty.​

    by Benoist
    I really liked your map and selected it in my final short list however the other judges didn't agree with me and thus not selected in the final list, sorry.
    I found your map fun & creative, however I can understand why your map didn't get selected, we can't really tell from which side the robots are comming, if the team hasn't engie with bi-directional teleporter this can be very borring to go on the other map side, I suggest making a teleporter in your so defenders can easly go on both side.
    Another problem would be the map side with the trains, it feels like a maze and make defending here very difficult it's also lacking health kits & ammo packs.
    ESTATE
    This map was disqualified for not having proper popfiles.
    FORDWAY
    by Sword
    This map suffers from a lack of flow. It sprawls a lot, and bots seem to take a long complicated path (the control point sits on the other path, so they avoid it because videogame rules) - a long, complicated path that's hard to pick out or remember. The point and bot path are very far apart, and it looks like it'll be very difficult for players to defend both without essentially splitting in half. The start is quite narrow, and players have a lot of advantages over the bots until quite a long way through. The missions in normal mode all seem quite short and simple, even for normal. I have two other rather picky points: firstly, the tank leaps like a salmon early in the mission for some reason, which probably isn't intended. And secondly, Gangster and Gangsta are entirely different aesthetics and I think you're using them wrong.​

    by Yrr
    Doesnt have required number of missions for contest
    Awkward geo, weird mechanics​

    by Egan
    The layout of the map, especially at the front feels kinda cramped and random. http://i.imgur.com/PBt3dV6.jpg It's weird that the bots could easily walk to their right directly into the point room, but instead take the really long route all around the building structure to their left. I get it's MVM but it felt really weird. The layout at the start feels really grid-like also, that nothing is angled or, even the displacements are all almost totally flat.

    The normal mode difficulty feels okay, but it was really short per round. Also started to feel very same-y since all the combat takes place in that opening alleyway.

    The controlpoint wasn't used very much, the bots captured it one round but it didn't make a difference it seemed. I wish it was used more and that we got to see its effects.​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The is too open, we don't have any covering spots/sentry nests, defending it is really difficulty.

    The routes:
    The map features 2 routes, one route is used only if the gate is captured. These routes feel rather complex and hard to understand, they are lacking ammo packs & health kits.
    Gatebot: the 3rd route used by gatebot is rather complex and doesn't really make sense, the CP is rigth next to the front and gatebots take a long detour to go an capture, it doesn't really make sense for them to take a long detour.

    The front:
    The front is good, the elevated area for defenders is really nice my only complaint is the full health kits change them to medium kits.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    The normal mission is good, I'm a bit bothered by medics with full charge, the mission length is good too.​

    GREENVINE
    This map was disqualified because it is broken, and crashes very easily. All judges comments were along these lines although Yrr added "it sure is green".

    HELIX
    by Sword
    Several people have tried having bots coming from multiple places at once but i'm not sure this entirely works. This map has, occasionally, one bot at a time spawn from one side, which strikes me as the worst possible way to do it, since one player effectively gets to sit out, killing one scout every ten minutes. I'm banging on about "flow" a lot, but I think it needs to be ironclad for two entrances - so you can easily and instinctively get to whatever one you're trying for - and it just isn't. It's a creative choice of environment, though, i like it a lot.

    Also, "Giant 1950's Pyro" is... just kind of a bad name.​

    by Yrr
    Pretty empty, lots of flat ground and little cover
    Confusing layout, bots coming from both sides is hard to deal with
    SoaS scouts make sense with a full pyro wave but accompanying giants doesnt work cause the giants are few and slow, so they dont pair up properly​

    by Egan

    Didn't play.​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The layout is just a large open area with the hatch at the center, no covering spots I don't see how an advanced mission can go well with this layout.

    The routes?:
    That's the problem with the map we don't where the bots are going, no bomb path arrow. It needs more health kits & ammo packs and closer to the bomb route.

    The fronts:
    The B front layout is nice maybe a bit too large, the A front however is bad, large open area with no covering spots I don't know how it can be defended properly.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    It's hard to evaluate the mission there, same problem as mvm_damm we don't know from where the robots are comming but on top of that we don't know their routes, we often ended up defending at the hatch, the mission length & robots seem good.
    INFUSE
    by Sword
    This map seems very sprawling and complex, and for me at least the layout took a long time to learn. This hurts the missions too, as loads of stuff moves very fast through a complicated environment. The map is very corridor-y, with loads of small gantries or paths that can be confusing to navigate. The waves jumped noticably in difficulty around wave 3, although at one point we were just waiting around for bots for ages.​

    by Yrr
    lots of thin corridors, layout not obvious, cant find a lot of areas or tell where leads where
    cover is sparse in the combat areas
    idk what to say about the flyros, theyre so weird to fight
    wait times are so long
    routes feel so seperated so therell be bots where u just cant easily get to them
    useless deathpit
    final Normal wave kind of overwhelming due to the Everywhereness
    by Egan
    The map has some interesting routes, like the one going through the interior space, but most combat areas had felt awkward due to how flat or separate they were from other paths.

    It was really hard to tell where I was supposed to defend the first area from. http://i.imgur.com/ivt20NG.jpg There's no subtle places I can 'maybe' hold near the front, it's all definitive places way off on the sides that limit my view a ton which was frustrating.

    Where the two paths from the front meet near the raised platform is an annoying spot to fight around since the ground is very flat. http://i.imgur.com/lfCtPI8.jpg We ended up defending on the same plane of height as all the robots are coming in, just feels like its unthought-through. You could probably make that raised height platform half its current height, but then add a ramp upwards onto it from the back. Would allow defenders to use the solid platform as a sightline blocker, but also to gain some height over robots. Having a wall there against their backs might also help because it would make them vulnerable while standing there to soldier splash damages.

    The routes of the map feel really disconnected from each other. It's difficult to defend a different route than what youre on if a single robot starts taking the bomb down it, you cant just 'meet up with the route' because most doors between the routes close when the wave starts.

    Hard to find health and ammo when I need it - when I retreat from the front lines, they're all in weird spots in rooms I don't use during the round.

    The route leading from the hatch area to the front has a small window in it that always taunts me when I walk past because it's too small to use for any combat meaningfully. It's also too far from the incoming wave of robots, but it lets me see them as I slowly walk towards the end of the long hallway... http://i.imgur.com/0B7NZdI.jpg I'd recommend just getting rid of that window and shortening the length of the route overall - have the door that opens to the hatch instead open to the center here - towards the balcony looking at the hatch area.

    Defending last after taking down a tank was kinda frustrating because you'd kill the tank, and then be super separated from the hatch since the tank path led behind the hatch building. Was frustrating to slowly walk around the big mound until you could try to defend the hatch from more robots.
    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch & tank path:
    Not sure what are the right words to define your hatch but we can say it's messy, we have sentry spots & covering spots that's not a problem, but you are wasting space around your hatch you have an entire area near the hatch made for the tank only and it's empty, it doesn't have any real use.

    The routes:
    This map features 2 routes I don't really like them we don't have any good covering spots and it's missing a lot of health kits & ammo packs along the way, it feels like you've got the layout of these routes when making your map in hammer and didn't make any sketches, another thing that bugs me with your layout is giving a shortcut for the tank to the hatch and I don't understand why you've locked it with doors if you build a corridor right next to it, it feels you decided to add tanks to your map but a bit too late and ended up making an entire new section for it.

    Front:
    The front isn't really one, the area where robots enter the map must be large and not small like you did, we are forced to stay right underneath their spawn cliff drop, it's also missing a dispenser spot & sentry spot as well.

    Overall comment: It's really hard to review your map, it feels like it was still in alpha and you did some painting on it an submitted it.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    Your normal mission is really boring, the wait between spawn cooldown on wave 1 for your crit powerjack pyros is way too long, you've also used expert skill on your giant heavies you must avoid doing that, the total mission time is 16 minutes it's too long, you should be under 15 minutes, fixing wave 1 and decreasing the difficulty skill of some robots would improve the mission.​


    INTERSECTION
    by Sword
    You guys are clearly immensely talented, but I've not seen Intersection (or Firewatch - that was you, right?) get tested at all, ever, and I think that really hurts how well you do. It's a gorgeous map at a distance but falls apart when inspected close-up. There are lots of strange prop choices, it's often hard to tell what a building actually IS or DOES - just a kind of generic assemblage of signs and vents and windows. I think you need to think more carefully about your maps as worlds that people need to inhabit, not just things to be aesthetically experienced. The roads, for instance, lead from nowhere into a wall. Cars seem to need to drive down a tiled corridor to reach a car park. (Also the chalk outline and broken window is... REALLY wierd. Like what the actual fuck.)

    The layout isn't great. The point area has basically no cover, and the map turns into two corridors around the corner. The station is a cool place, (several people have tried to make a subway station, and I think this is the best) but... not actually an interesting fighting arena. There's only one real area of height advantage over the bot spawn area, and its so complex to get to the sentry buster blows up before it can even reach there. (The corridors beneath it are like... a wierd stupid shape. Why are they in a circle?) I like the basic idea of a shortcut back to start but not allowing bots to path it means that it can easily be broken. The map is very corridor-heavy, with very limited cover, changes of height, alternate paths... its a well-disguised network of corridors, but thats what it feels like.

    Please, next time you make a map, get it tested with us! This map has so much potential and, not to toot our collective horn, but I think we could really have helped it live up to it, just by being an extra pair of eyes.​

    by Yrr
    little confusing, the shortcut is nice but its exploitable, should be a dropdown instead of a route bots cant enter
    all the long open areas made me think sniper would be useful but then there was all tiny scouts and flare pyros, like it was designed for harassing snipers
    bots real slow to actually enter gamespace
    longass respawns
    yea the open map super favours sniper, but all the enemy bots seem to counter him, which means enemy snipers are strong but friendly ones are useless​

    by Egan
    It kinda pains me honestly that this map is so aesthetically beautiful, but how imbalanced the gameplay is with flatness of areas, the cover, the length, and the popfile.

    It looks like you put a ton of effort into the aesthetics! Many areas of the map feel really unique, but still somehow fitting into the TF2 universe. There are a lot of cool building designs, road designs, angles / details / lighting cues. The map feels a bit big though, and some areas like the start and the hatch feel very open and don't offer much in terms of gameplay for most classes.

    The start of the map has a high balcony for defense, but for most classes it's too far away from where the robots spawn to deal any good damage, or it's at too high of a angle that hitscan weapons aren't easy to line up shots with (sniper). The rest of the start is a big empty parking lot. There's trees, and that's kinda unique to fight around, but it really feels really empty otherwise. http://i.imgur.com/UoW3juj.jpg I think what I would do is cut at least 1/3 of the distance that bots are dropped inwards into the area, just bring that whole cliff section forwards towards the defenders.

    The hatch area is also really cover-less. http://i.imgur.com/IzRZLSw.jpg The only way defenders can get any cover is to utilise the ramp that slowly churns upwards to block some sights from the dangerous bots coming in on the other side of the geometry, but then you're not really anywhere near the hatch, and probably not near your team or any ammo / health. There really just needs to be something else in front of the hatch (brush based preferrably) to bring some cover to the players. The rest if that whole yard in front of the hatch also seems to go to waste generally since there's no use to go to the other side of the area opposite the ramp upwards.

    There are also a lot of hallways that are really long making it hard to deal any splash damage since your rockets just skirt past the bots if you miss - instead of hitting the ground, or to get any small advantages otherwise. http://i.imgur.com/yyEe2aW.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/D9IxKye.jpg In these parts I kinda wish they were just cut in half lengthwise...

    The first wave of the normal popfile was surprisingly difficult for how close they managed to get to the hatch on such a large map. Wave 3 was also WAY too hard for normal mode. We only survived due to having a pyro near a dispenser spam airblast like crazy, and having had our entire team also there.​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The layout there is well bad, the biggest problem at your hatch it's missing a lot of cover spots making it very diffuclt to protect, and because the robots come from an higher ground it makes it even worse. Another problem there are no sentry nest, keep in mind that defending a specific area in mvm works a lot of on the engineer, if you don't offer an elevated area or a cover spot near the bomb route the team is doomed to lose the area (here the hatch).

    The routes:
    Your map features 2 routes, I don't have much to say about them they are good we have health kits & ammo packs along the way and covering spots. The only problem is with the reset pit, it's too far from your bomb routes making it useless for defenders.

    The front:
    The front could use an improvement with ground changes it's too flat and lacking covering spots, the trees could be covering spots but because robots are comming from 2 different sides well they are pretty much useless.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    That normal mission is very far from a good one, spam of giant heavies, giant medics in the waves, giant boss on wave 3, this is not how a normal mission must be built, if you want a boss in your normal mission then put it at the end not mid mission.
    Keep in mind a normal mission is what new players will play. Most of them will try to play melee only, if you haven't noticed a full team of 6 melee defenders can defeat all valve normal missions, also the total mission time must be between 10 mins - 15 mins.

    Overall comment:
    It feels like you've spent more time detailing the map than fixing your layout and testing your missions.​

    KINGSPARK
    by Sword
    Firstly, I got lost in spectate. The whole map looks the same, and it's hard to pick out a way to navigate it. You've made a very cool city, but not really a MVM map? It reminds me a lot of the team deathmatch maps in Jedi Knight 2. The first consequence of this is that there's no real flow, no natural way to navigate, and the second is that it's full of massive sightlines. I do very much like the environment you've created, and can see how much care and attention went into the brushwork, but you need to think more about what's needed to make an MVM map fun to play. For example, the hatch area is practically flat.​

    by Yrr
    Boring, flat, mazelike geometry
    Can't tell areas apart visually
    Super long walk with no forward upgrade station
    No structure, bots just go wherever
    Giants get stuck
    Spawn building is a concrete blob surrounded by actual buildings, looks weird
    Spies in spawn​

    by Egan
    Your maps geometry was really interesting and unique. It was cool just looking around. However most areas were very flat and open. http://i.imgur.com/pF2pf5R.jpg It wasn't fun dealing with snipers! I think I might suggest just chopping off building sections to enclose the area more, which is a bit of a shame since the geometry is very cool looking. The hatch area is totally flat and not fun to deal with bots at.

    The waves also went on for a really really long time, we didn't end up finishing.
    Crazy idea: it could be fun to give the players grapplehooks from mannpower: the spaces would feel less open, it would be easier to gain height advantages over bots far away, could have more giant robots with unique powers unlike many other mvm maps (would also be a way to keep a lot of the geometry)!​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The layout there would be good if it had cover spots, sentry nest, health kits & ammo packs, the are is too open and I can hardly tell how it can be defended on advanced missions, it really needs cover spots and the hatch layout would be good.

    The route:
    The routes are very long, they also don't over many cover spots or sentry nest, the second major issues with these routes everything looks same, you can quickly get lost there, some places are also not correctly sized for giants making missions super easy to defeat.

    The front:
    The front is really far away from the spawn, it doesn't have a forward upgrade station on a map with this size forward upgrade station are more than recommended, if it was really annoying to walk back from front to the spawn to buy new upgrades after defeating a wave. The second problem is that everything is flat, I would love to see some routes going on buildings 2nd floor that would make the gameplay more interesting.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    The mission felt more like an advanced one, robots were super hard to take down, but thanks or because of your nav problems robot got stuck pretty often, and giants couldn't fit in some place making the mission easy to defeat.

    Overall comment:
    The map is too flat it should make us figth against robots on different floors, and some place shall be fixed so giants don't get stuck.​


    KIVIAK
    by Sword
    This is a pretty solid map, I think, and it's a shame that it's not yet finished. The layout is solid, with a few considered creative touches like the bots coming out of the window and the enclosed final hatch. Everything is very saturated, which doesn't work super well I think? The popfile has a few misfiring waves, specifically wave Normal 3, which is very slow, and I looked away from the final Normal wave to check my phone. When I looked back, the players had already won.​

    by Yrr
    The brightly coloured scandinavian village thing is cool but the geo is kind of awkward
    Barely any money
    Knockback pyros are immensely annoying
    Money keeps getting stuck in things
    Final wave on normal took us 18 seconds to beat, was it intentionally the easiest wave?​

    by Egan
    Your map had a cool, interesting, and unique theme, and the layout around the hatch was generally okay. My big problems were with the start, bugs, and the popfiles.

    The opening two waves are a bit dry, it might be relevant to how wide the gameplay space at the start is. http://i.imgur.com/PKScOAN.jpg I dont often find I'm getting many interesting angles on the robots, and also we dont have enough money to make any meaningful purchases.

    Too many robots dropped like $1 each on the first waves, which made it difficult to collect all of it, and it was also frustrating because we all blamed each other which left a sour taste. I might recommend having the lesser bots become support, which would mean the remaining larger bots generally drop more money.

    There were occasional spots where money is hard to spot on the ground because of color contrast with the snow/road, or where money gets stuck uncollectable in the ground: the fountain, the hatch, even with noclip! Apparently scouts could collect it there though, with their magnetic superpowers, maybe why it wasn't found earlier.

    The last wave took 18 seconds to finish (what). The bots were bosses but they had regular health, we just destroyed them instantly.

    Also, while taking screenshots here in writing feedback I only JUST noticed there is a forward upgrade station under the forward battlements..!!!! http://i.imgur.com/IxFCLR7.jpg You could have added some of those animation signs there at least, I had no idea!​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The layout there is nice, I don't have much to say on it, but I would have appriciated some cover spots rigth next to spawn, on harder difficulty we can get nuked rigth after exiting the spawn.

    The route:
    The map features 2 route, the rigth route (if you are at spawn) is nice, and offers lots of covering spots and health kits I don't see much trouble defending here, but the left route doesn't look that great, we don't have many covering spots and it's missing ammo packs and health kits and is also short, if the map picks this route some waves may end up being harder/impossible, winning the mission will result in luck.

    The front:
    The front is nice I don't have much to say on it, perhaps bring robots spawn closer and add some health kits near robot spawn but overall it's good.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    The mission is really bad some waves are super easy while some are super hard, I don't recommend making missions with jump difficulty, first of all because this is not fun, second of all new players may get the wrong idea on what a normal mission is.
    As example the wave before last one, it's super hard to kill the robots, but then last wave featuring one giant medic boss with 2 giant bowmen are super easy to take down.

    Overall comment:
    The map isn't bad, it has potential and if the above points are fixed it can be a good mvm map, all it needs is more covering spots/sentry nests, and fixing up the missions.​

    LANDMASS

    by Sword
    This is a hard one to talk about. I'm guessing it's a first map? Or one of your first? The core layout isn't terrible but you desperately need to change some things. It's so dramatically over scaled that you can see the far-z clip of the map, and almost completely devoid of cover. Worse is the near-complete lack of ammo - some waves that should have been trivially easy were rendered nearly impossible by needing to constantly leave fights to grab the tiny amount of ammunition. When players are suiciding so the engineer can get the ammo from their corpse to make a dispenser... thats not fun for anyone. The hatch being a pond is a cool idea - if completely nonsensical -but does mean that I spent five minutes before the round started looking for the familiar hatch. Apparently the bots trying to cram through a tiny gap is deliberate? Don't do that. It turns easy waves into wastes of time and hard waves into dull slogs, all the while feeling like we're winning by exploiting, not playing well.

    The waves are... credit where it's due, the waves are oozing creativity. Particularly on Expert mode, you've tried to do something new and interesting on every single wave and I admire that. However, I think you need to pay more attention to why and how valve waves are the way that they are, and understand what is "challenging" and what is just a miserable experience. The megatank was a dull, unentertaining slog, just pouring out damage over and over again (needing to constantly run away to the one ammo pack in the map). The über medics were a dull, unentertaining slog, air blasting until eventually back stabbed or running out of ammo, (until we crit-carpet-bombed the sniper and they all forgot how to uber). The giant demo men were just miserable to fight - at one point we had one cornered in the door to spawn, and we discovered that the entire team shooting it at once could barely damage it more than it was healing. And there were a hundred of them! That's not MVM, that's a Ancient Greek conception of hell! The twenty-five tanks were just as easy to kill as one more reasonable tank, but by the time I was one-shotting tanks with melee- because I was out of ammo - I was at least weeping with laughter, which most waves don't make me do.
    by Yrr
    I can tell you aren't familiar with the hammer editor yet, theres a lot of weirdities where stuff is offgrid by strange amounts
    Everything is huge and open, which is kinda boring for gameplay, but its big enough that i can see the far-z rendering cutoff point
    Bot spawns blocked off by invisible walls rather than anything obvious
    Bot pathing is really bad, they try to go through a tiny gap we can hold really easily, instead of taking the big open route
    Bot cosmetic bugs make me think you didn't test this either
    Tank moves so slowly
    There's displacement seams I can get stuck inside
    I can't find pickups of any kind
    Absurdly mismatched values for bots, money, tank health and speed
    Insanely long uber medics are impossible to kill
    Money can drop in bot spawn area where we cant get it
    The following waves are either ridiculous to play or literally unbeatable:
    200k hp tank wave
    25 Tank wave
    Wave where the listed bots dont fit on screen, and theres 50 tanks
    Wave where the listed bots dont fit on screen, are all giant, and are all tagged as bosses
    Wave with 200 55k hp giant demoknights that heal faster than damage can be done to them, and which just get into our spawnroom and spawnkill us instead of going for the hatch​

    by Egan
    Didn't play.​

    by Benoist

    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The layout is just a large open area and we don't have any covering spots or sentry nests, we also need health kits & ammo packs there.

    The route:
    I see one long route with almost nothing on it (open), and it's too large we also need more cover spots with health kits and ammo packs.

    The front:
    Not sure where the front is, but it seems too large and "undefendable".

    Waves:

    Normal:
    I didn't play the mission as it would have been useless due to the above points.

    Overall comment:
    Your map is over sized, you need to have to make it smaller or add new bomb routes.​


    ORIGINS
    by Sword
    This map is frankly bizarre. I watched the demo instead of playing but the map has no flow whatsoever, and its nearly impossible to tell where the bots will go or how to get to anywhere. The high gantries and narrow paths to the point will be very easy to defend and also very frustrating if players fall off. It's a cool concept but a bit out-there to make for a fun map.​

    by Egan
    The map is WAY too open and flat. The popfiles are very weird - you spam too many of the same thing a lot. http://i.imgur.com/6nRqY0b.jpg

    by Yrr
    its Empty
    theres weird little cubbies all over and i dont know what the point of anything here is
    the spawn isnt even near the hatch and the robots come past it??
    once the bots are past us it takes longer for US to get to the hatch than for THEM
    the hatch is above us so the bots gain even more advantage the further they push​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    Your hatch is very unusual, on top of a tower from where we can airblast the bomb carrier making defending super easy. 1 Red vs Machine
    I don't really have much to say there you know what's wrong and why this layout cannot work.

    The routes:
    We one looooooooooong route, it's probably the longest one I've ever seen on mvm, robots take like 5 minutes to reach the hatch, it's lacking covering spots & health kits & ammo packs.

    The front:
    Where's the front? Robots spawn 2 miles away.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    Your normal mission isn't a normal one, why 100 scouts on first wave the mission doesn't fit with your map layout.

    Overall comment:
    90% of the map is useless see https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....141/05407DBE509ABE12E92D5F78D008AC7131715C69/

    OVERFLOW
    This map was disqualified for the following reason: "missing assets, broken pop files, no normal mode, incorrectly named files"

    PITFIGHT
    by Sword
    It's a neat idea, and nice to see people doing different things, but this cool idea really needs to be attached to a better base layout. The sniper balcony is super overpowered for Soldier, since I can rain down fire without taking any in return, and at ground level there's very little height changes or cover. Defending the point is miserable since everything can spam down on you, and the waves are kind of hard for Normal mode, with wave 6 particularly forcing us to work much harder for it than those before.​

    by Yrr
    Weird gimmick, not much gameplay space
    Lack of bomb makes it hard to see where enemies are coming from
    You have entrances on all sides but you still funnel all bots into the same choke to get to the point​

    by Egan
    Didn't play.​

    by Benoist
    Even if the map tries to be unique it has flaws that makes the gameplay bad, it starts first with the spawn, we have 2 side doors for the spawn however only one leads to the upgrade station the other forces you to take a "detour", on all valve maps with 2 different spawns or 2 side doors you always have one upgrade station for each.
    The second problem is the defending space around the cp, it's flat and too small with robot spawns on each side of it, it makes the area even smaller. What would have been good is make the robots comming from the 4 different spawns, going to a center area and then go for the CP it would make defending easier.​

    POTASSIUM
    by Sword
    Well, the layout is cool and creative, and the detail has neat ideas - though some of them are enacted poorly, particularly with the repeated use of the grip metal texture on walls. The HDR is screwed up and the map ends up very bright. You also have some strange prop choices - frontline props and such. Sloping water is also very broken, by the way. The bananas are bad since you only ever wander into them by accident, usually when running away backwards.

    The popfile is pretty horrible to play. Hundreds of arrow snipers, super-tough giants... it's ludicrous for normal mode, and would be not difficult but just un-fun for a more advanced mode.

    The gates need to be explained: I didn't know that they were gates, or that the doors closed, or that the bots were capturing them.​

    by Egan
    Didn't play, or no comment?​

    by Yrr
    lighting is really weird, multi-level water makes for buggy rendering
    bananas are obnoxious
    bots are stuck cause theres doors in the way
    the tank passes through doors before they open, and theres broken cosmetics on bots, these make it feel untested
    The following waves are either ridiculous to play or literally unbeatable:
    120 huntsmen with barely any money between them, feels like 120 was a typo
    55k hp giant regen pyro
    60k major crits
    2 70k heal-on-kill deflector heavies with 8 medics between them​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The hatch seems good, we have covering spots & sentry nests however we have a problem with the 2 spawns they aren't on the same level, now what if we are playing an expert mission robots are at the hatch and I respawn in the "1st floor spawn", I open the exit door and get nuked by robots, however if I respawn in the "2nd floor spawn" I can safely go out and defend the hatch without any problems.

    The routes:
    I can't really talk about the bomb routes, the robots are litteraly going where they want.
    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....190/E7348577C8E11527AD943CA2EFF46189962AA14B/
    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....805/AAB4622DF21B445E69CD22AB77EC70B4EF0E2A [≈ High power LED current, peak 2.7 A]0E/
    If routes exist in MvM it's to make the gameplay less repetitive AND give only one area to protect, 6 defenders can't protect the entire facility.

    The front:
    The front is nice, we have covering spots, ground changes, and sentry nests but because robots can go where they want defending the front is really hard.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    The normal mission is really bad, first wave has 112 bowmen and they wipe out the defending team, then we have wave 4 with a giant chief pyro from advanced valve missions, and on wave 5 we get 3 giant crit chief soldier from advanced missions, and one giant boss heavy heal on kill with giant medics on wave 6, now I don't know what were you thinking but this is no correct for a normal mission, you can imagine new players, trying mvm for the first time on that map their first impression of mvm is gonna be really bad, on top of that even skilled mvm players can't take down the mission.

    Overall comment:
    First time I joined this map my eyes got destroyed by the HDR, the map is really confusing I learn my way to the front then wave 1 starts and we have doors closing down, I got a really hard time figuring an alt route to the front during the waves.​

    ROUGHNECK
    by Sword
    A lot of people have entered this contest with their first - or one of their first- maps, and i'm pleased to see so many show so much promise. This map definitely has potential, but needs work to live up to it. For one thing, the lighting and HDR is all over the place, either super bright or super dark. There don't seem to be any bot arrows, and there isn't much natural flow, so it's hard to track where we need to defend. There's some very wierd detailing (like the train with it's arse in the air) and some holes in the displacements big enough to get stuck in.​

    by Yrr
    Pitch black spawn, cant find the upgrade station
    Geo is kinda messy, hard to find my way around
    Can't find pickups
    Waves are kind of a mess
    Hatch is bad, things can fall in (like money)
    Terrible displacements
    Uses flag instead of bomb
    Lots of wave issues​

    by Egan
    A lot of this map feels very flat and very open. There's only two ammopacks on the map, and both are medium. You need to use ammo/healthpacks to incentive places to defend from, if there's no packs there I don't want to try standing there. One of the medium ammos is in a side building at the start, but because it has no health and the room its in is very small and disconnected I also don't want to even try standing there due to inevitable splash damage, and not being able to recover quickly. You need to add a lot more pickups to areas for defenders.

    The opening is also strange because it's very open and flat for a long while, that seems like a waste of space since no defender can stand there.

    Defending the hatch wasn't very enjoyable. The robots walk straight along a flat ground for a good minute and a half, and then just wrap around a fence prop and there's the hatch. There wasn't a place for defenders to stand and feel good about their tactical decisions, just hoping that you'd kill them before they touch the hatch. http://i.imgur.com/rDhfNRd.jpg You should add more height in the hatch area to play with, not just for players but for the bots to go up and down and around. There is that balcony, but it wasn't quick to access from the hatch area once you start defending from there (it felt too far away).

    It was also hard to tell when the bots were shootable at the start, since they lose their invulnerability halfway through the tunnel.​

    by Benoist
    For a first map this is not that bad but few things could be improved, the map needs bomb path arrow it's hard to tell which path the robots are gonna take. The HDR lighting is too brigth it needs to be darker.
    The map has also displacements problems with holes in ground, you've started detailing way too early you must make sure your layout doesn't have any issues, to fix the route you will have to changed a bit the layout and delete some of your detailing work and you probably don't want to do that that's why detailing should be the last step on your map.
    The normal mission is really hard, the waves don't give much cash and we have crit heavy, this is too difficult for a normal mission take a look at valve's normal missions or ask someone experienced in popfile making to make your missions.​

    SEALAND
    by Sword
    The map is very simplistic. There's no ammo, no cover, no height variation. We played the first round of normal, and sixty brass beast heavies when we have nowhere to hide or to attack from above is just a miserable experience.​

    by Yrr
    Flat, kinda boring geometry
    no good hold spots, bots are always either level or above you
    60 brass beasts on a map with no cover or high ground is a miserable experience
    none of this seems tested tbh​

    by Egan
    Good effort, generally though the map is quite flat and open. The layout doesn't offer any interesting places to defend apart from the roofs, and most classes can't get up there - engineers can't build there either.

    The roofs were a bit fun as a demoman because I was lobbing grenades and stickies over the roof sides onto the bots as they were roaming through the streets, which was a unique gameplay experience compared to a lot of other maps.

    You should add more subtle height differences that players can take advantage of instead of fighting on equal ground to the robots constantly.

    The hatch section is very flat and open. http://i.imgur.com/IJez6Ch.jpg You can't defend it while standing near it, you have to defend it from the spawn exit. You should really allow players to stand around near the hatch, and you should also probably have some route from the spawn directly towards the hatch so players don't have to jump into the water directly in front of the incoming robot wave.

    It feels like you never tested the popfile it because the first normal-mode wave is 60 heavies that kill you instantly. If you plan to continue with the map you should definitely decrease their damage output. Normal mode should be able to be completed by 2 skilled players alone, and we couldn't get past the first wave with 6 skilled players...​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    I don't know what to say here.... it's huh, well empty, the hatch area is missing everything, there are no sentry spots, it doesn't matter where you build your sentry it will get nuked by the robots, one spot for the sentry would be near the spawn but the sentry detection radius doesn't have the hatch in it making the sentry harmless for robots. The hatch area has a lack of covering spots, defenders can hide behind the lighthouse but that's not convenient.
    The hatch area could use some crates as hiding spots, and an extension to the elevated area would really help defending the hatch.

    The routes:
    Despite having bomb path arrows, bomb paths on that map are broken robots are going in every directions you don't know from where robots are coming when you are defending the bomb.
    Your supposed routes are empty, you can't hide, and we have a lack of health kits & ammo packs, see what's missing with the hatch that's also what you need on these routes.

    The front:
    The front layout isn't right at all, it doesn't offer a spot to build a sentry or dispenser, regardless of where you build your sentry robots will nuke it, the spawn on the right makes everything too difficult to defend because you can't hide behind the van, the robots that will come from the left will kill you, the front is also missing a medium/large health kit, avoid using small health kits in mvm maps.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    Because of map layout & waves difficulty it has been impossible for us to review the mission, however one advice don't make a wave with 60 heavies and spawn 20 of them at once on a normal mission it's impossible to take them down, spawning (5 heavies & 5 bat scouts)x4 would be better.​

    SHIPPER
    by Sword
    The map has some fairly sincere scale problems - it's pretty large. The start area is kinda well-constructed but doesn't really make any sense - are they shipping gravel in crates? There's also a lack of ammo, and more than a few times the tank went clean past behind me because the bots were coming from another direction. The layout doesn't flow very well, and its quite complicated to get to the top of the central building. This is partially because everything is so high, its very hard to get a sense of it from ground level.​

    by Yrr
    Didn't play.​

    by Egan
    We played the normal difficulty mission and, except for the tank, we never had to leave the first room. In fact other than support bots and the tank, all the other bots dropped onto a single location which made it very easy to spam that one spot and kill everything. http://i.imgur.com/jbG8F92.jpg We finished normal mode in 7.5 minutes!​

    I'd recommend having an exit from the 'weak stuffs' balcony back towards the secondary area. http://i.imgur.com/BaQbbfU.jpgThat would allow players to more easily roam back and forth between the areas - and it would allow you to send more difficult bots through the 'weak stuffs' route, forcing players to separate more. Also if it was just a door route instead of totally shattering that whole wall you could keep more of the theme / optimisations. Could even do a zigzag route so you keep even more optimisations, but an areaportal should be fine.​

    It was also slightly frustrating that the forward upgrade station didn't have a ramp towards the center building structure in that area - you instead had to walk back on the ground all the way around to the ramp for 300 meters.​

    Nice work on the displacements on the ground! Also cool details assortedly around the map, like the train, and the opening tunnels where the bots spawn (except we saw them instantly spawn in).​

    by Benoist
    I didn't really play your map, I got some problems during the review but I can tell you the hatch is too open we don't have many covering spots, the map feels oversized, on top of that the front is messy we have only one covering spawn and we can't make a sentry nest.​

    SPACECENTRE
    by Sword
    I wasn't able to play this map.​

    by Yrr
    huge and open, really boring geo, no interesting playspaces
    long way to walk and no forward upgrade station
    some really slow waves got really boring, long times with nothing happening​

    by Egan
    The map has some interesting height variations for players, and it doesn't look half bad, but it is quite large. A lot of routes feel like they take too long to walk towards, not just in combat but also especially noticeable when just walking from the upgrade stations towards the frontlines again. You might want to shave at least a 1/3 of the map's walk times off by squeezing things together more.

    The opening section is a bit boring. The place where defenders defend from - the balcony with stairs - is quite disconnected from any other section of the map, and you have to jump down and walk across a very flat ground to get anywhere else meaningful. The robots also have a similar problem, where the moment they fall into the map they walk on flat ground for 1/2 the map distance. Means a lot of the shots I'm taking on the bots are from the same angle.

    You may also want to make the opening section have more interesting height spots for pyros to sit closer to the enemy dropdowns. Currently that whole area is flat. http://i.imgur.com/d7ReGYy.jpg There are the barrier piles, sure, but they aren't really fun to hide behind, you don't feel like you really have any advantages other than not being instantly killed. Should add some smaller height there too maybe for defenders, or remake the cover there into some small buildings / connectors towards the previous balcony hold (asymmetry could be cool there too maybe).

    Some of the waves have empty periods where we were just waiting at the front for the bots to emerge. The tank also has a very flat straight trajectory for quite a distance which was a bit uninteresting.

    The hatch that you could access by button prompt was a bit interesting, and it was comical too because it gave players something to toy with in between rounds / waiting for players.​

    by Benoist
    I didn't play your map but I've watched the demo & noclip around the map, it's way too open I don't see how red can defend properly on that.​


    STRONGHOLD
    by Sword
    "Wow, this map is tall" I think, as I take fall damage leaving spawn. "Wow, this map is really tall,", I think, as I spend thirty secondstrying to navigate my way to the ground without taking damage and still do. This map is... You've done a pretty job creating a cool castle but not at creating a fun area to play in. There's so much of it! It's so big and open its really not fun to fight in - even things that could be very cool (like castle walls) end up no fun because you're so high and so far away from the action. The popfile is also very hard for normal mode, and there's a sincere lack of ammunition. There's no flow to the map - it's easy to get lost and hard to anticipate where the bots will be going.​

    by Yrr
    Feels like more attention was paid to making it shaped like a castle than having a fun layout
    Open and boring​

    by Egan
    Didn't play.​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The layout isn't bad there, I would replace the fence with something to make better covering spots, and make the area around the hatch a bit larger.

    The routes:
    The routes are very long, large and open, we don't have many cover spots, and it's missing health kits and ammo packs.

    The front:
    The front is just a flat open area with a tower at the center, and it's missing health kits & ammo packs, you would work on the group levels and bring it closer to the castle.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    As your map has some client issues I didn't test the normal mission.

    Overall comment:
    Make your map smaller and add more defending spots, keep in mind your layout must help the defenders (not too much thou), you can't start making a castle over your layout if it's not well balanced.​


    SYNTHESIZE
    by Sword
    There's some great creative detailing here, but I think it needs a bit more consideration as to what makes sense in a real environment. (why do they lift stuff up to roof level to burn it?) The general layout breaks away from established MVM rules in a creative way, but I think needs more consideration of why these rules are as they are. The front area isn't much fun to fight in: it's narrow and a bit of a killbox, and doesn't have much space for scouts to dodge around and collect money. Also, there isn't much ammo.​

    by Yrr
    Didn't play.​

    by Egan
    Didn't play.​

    by Benoist
    Layout:

    The hatch:
    The hatch area is a bit too small, needs more covering spots and elevated area near the left bomb path.

    The routes:
    The map features 3 routes, no complaints on the cover spots, however these routes are lacking healthkits and ammo packs they need more, also one route cuts rigth from the front to the hatch making it the shortest one one the map, if this route is picked it makes a wave super hard to defeat.

    The front:
    The front isn't bad I don't see many issues, perhaps a better acces to the elevated area on the left.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    The normal mission is good, I don't have complaints on it, only with one with the short bomb route that a giant heavy took and deployed the bomb in no time.​


    TERRORLAND
    This map was disqualified due to missing assets and fps drops making it unplayable.

    TRAINNCO
    by Sword
    I think maybe we didn't give this map as much play as we could - it was late, sorry. However there are some major issues that need fixing before it can be really considered finished. Most notable is the spawn camping- when the bots are at the bomb (a place they stay for quite some time) it's practically impossible to leave spawn, giving us no real opportunity to fight back. In addition the interior building is horribly dark - I found it nearly impossible to see bots and impossible to tell the difference between bots and players. Once I got the "control point" system I liked it more, but I'm dubious as to how well it will work even once it's clearer - sealing off a whole section of map makes it impossible to set up or prepare at last.

    by Yrr
    Messy boring geo, distracting displacement mountains in skybox
    Awkward spawn, robots can spawncamp us
    The robots aren't capping theyre just spawncamping us
    Suddenly capped out of nowhere
    Hatch area is really dark

    by Egan
    Didn't play.

    by Benoist
    Didn't play.

    VERMANN
    by Sword
    It's a neat idea for a map, but the execution ends up just big and empty, and with very few alternate paths or opportunities to get a height advantage over the bots. There are relatively few props that just get used over and over again, and the lighting is a very strange colour. I'd very much recommend checking the feedback for this map - we left a lot of it.​

    by Yrr
    kinda boring geo
    rly hard cause cover is too far back from the bots to do any damage without being in the open
    the single route is uninteresting, yet the openness makes it difficult, so its just kinda boring and unfun
    heavies have too much health for distance they travel, cant deal enough damage​

    by Benoist

    Layout:

    The hatch:
    We don't have any layout here, the spawn is a bit too far away from the hatch and we are missing a lot of covering spots and sentry spots near the hatch, I don't have much to say.

    The routes:
    Your map has only one bomb path it's not really recommended if you plan on making a normal mvm map (bomb + hatch) with no special features, you aren't taking any advantages of its length and it's missing cover spots. You should add more buildings, you should also avoid making straight bomb path, it makes defending really difficult and make your map unfun to play.

    The front:
    The front is somewhat nice, but you aren't giving defenders any advantages over the robots, take a look at mvm_coaltown and see how they made elevated areas, you could do the same with the houses.

    Overall comment:
    The map really feels empty if your plan is to make a destroyed town you should add more buildings and rework/make the layout around your hatch, it's also missing different bomb path that's bad, having more than one bomb path is really important on an mvm map.

    Waves:

    Normal:
    Your normal mission is broken, we got messed up robots icons and the wave one is way too hard, you should never use the AlwaysCrit attribute on a normal mission, it looks like you have never made custom missions so you should take a look at mvm_bigrock_normal popfile and use it on your map, you should try to edit and make new robot in as well and once you got the ropes you should try making your own popfiles.
    Here some advice if you make a normal mission:
    -The total success time should never go over 15 minutes.
    -Never use expert skill on your bots.
    -Don't spawn medics with full charge attribute.
    -Avoid spamming robots (like 20 heavies).​

    by Egan
    This map is interesting, the opening is cool because standing on rooftops waiting for the robots to arrive is a neat feeling like I'm in a western waiting for the convoy to be in the right spot. But generally the rest of the map is way too open.

    A lot of buildings are too far from the combat area, it's not worth running over towards them.
    It's also difficult to flank an oncoming wave of robots because they take the best paths towards the hatch - and the players don't get to use any sneaky player paths, you just follow up behind them as the climb the hill upwards. http://i.imgur.com/eswTZug.jpgIf you are going to continue the map you should add a path at the bottom of the image, shortcuts that only players can take, at least.

    The waves on normal mode are way too hard, and you have no money for any interesting upgrades. The whole hatch area might need to be remade, it's very difficult to defend from the giants on, nowhere to take cover.​

    I'm going to put up a thread for judging the shortlist maps soon, which will have a full judging rubric then.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  8. Diva Dan

    aa Diva Dan hello!

    Messages:
    799
    Positive Ratings:
    1,166
    Congratulations to everyone who made the shortlist!
     
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  9. Yrr

    aa Yrr An Actual Deer

    Messages:
    977
    Positive Ratings:
    1,821
    (sry if my notes are a little blunt/harsh, i was just making bullet points as we played)
     
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  10. BsP

    BsP L1: Registered

    Messages:
    18
    Positive Ratings:
    22
  11. Skyliner

    Skyliner L1: Registered

    Messages:
    5
    Positive Ratings:
    2
    Congrats to everyone who made it on there! I also wanted to note that the linked Pluto account there isn't actually me. This is my actual account (linked to my steam if you need confirmation.) just so you know - I don't think it matters tho? I made this account when I was changing names a lot.
     
  12. Yrr

    aa Yrr An Actual Deer

    Messages:
    977
    Positive Ratings:
    1,821
    we played your map we can send you the demo file
     
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  13. Dayal

    Dayal L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    67
    Positive Ratings:
    158
    Congrats to everyone else who made it on the shortlist.

    Just a small question though, Hell-met is also a contributor to Barren, but he isn't mentioned here. Is it because of an oversight? I'm sure everything is fine and all when it comes to medal distribution, but it's never bad to be safe and check, no?
     
  14. Flipy

    aa Flipy I like foxes

    Messages:
    139
    Positive Ratings:
    728
    I think some people here should take a second to sit back and let their emotions cool down before posting
     
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  15. Svode

    aa Svode Stuck in Folsom Prison

    Messages:
    155
    Positive Ratings:
    334
    Yay, Relic made it!
    Congrats to the several others who also made it in. If you did not, then I still congratulate you for entering!
     
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  16. Pingo

    Pingo L3: Member

    Messages:
    126
    Positive Ratings:
    164
    Argh. I didn't have enough time to work on hdr due to home renovations (was out for over 3 weeks with no computer). I can fix the bloom by changing one value and recompiling.
    And the fact that one of my guys had to be replaced last minute
     
  17. Hell-met

    Hell-met L1: Registered

    Messages:
    43
    Positive Ratings:
    8
    Sorry friend, but I did play Intersection and Potassium and cannot agree.

    Intersection is visually breath taking, it's honestly one if not the most prettiest map I've seen for TF2. It would be incredible SFM content. The gameplay however does not function. The robot spawn cannot be seen or analyzed, you never see what's coming up until the last second where everything just plops in your face. The massive areas give little chance to classes such as Pyro or Spy. The population itself is just masses of nonsense robots with no flow or explanation. I believe many wavespawns are straight out copy pasted from mannhattan (BehaviorModifiers Mobber gatebots).

    Potassium is just a mess. Everything is overdone and without the necessary optimization. The brushwork is fat like butter and there are massive frame losses even at idle state. The path isn't smooth and is rather confusing. The pops are once again very inconsistent and no real wavespawn really gives a sense of ... sense. Once again there are copies from mannhattan.
     
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  18. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

    Messages:
    1,405
    Positive Ratings:
    4,090
    Oversight. I collected all the Steam IDs for medal distribution from the map upload page, so everyone should be accounted for.
     
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  19. Qohen

    Qohen L1: Registered

    Messages:
    34
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    when is the public voting coming up?
     
  20. BsP

    BsP L1: Registered

    Messages:
    18
    Positive Ratings:
    22
    Maybe if I become donor I can win a cathegory? xDD
    Or become Staff 3 months and get ez medal and leave lolz
     
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