KotH Santo [Deleted]

[Idolon]

I think Sevin has a point* - especially considering that this is a mirror-symmetry koth map on a cliffside, there's not a whole lot of room to maneuver in terms of making the map's setting unique. Other themes (Badlands is a popular example) have less architectural (and otherwise) rules dictating what you're "allowed" to do with the theme. There's a reason why there are a ton of Ilios-Eros comparisons versus the other themes that Overwatch and TF2 share.

However. I'd like Grizzly to at least make an attempt at differentiating the theme before we tell him that it isn't possible. There's already some literature in Eros' thread on how the theme could be made to look different, and there's cues within the map itself that hint at new ideas with the theme: hedges. I'd love to see this theme covered in plant life, with vines hanging from garden trellises and trees lining the cliff edge. Gardens would also be a good excuse to provide a more open area that a dense city theme doesn't naturally support very well.

If there was one bit of this map I'd ask Grizzly to change this early for the sake of originality, it'd be the gamemode/layout. We already have a mirror koth map with this theme, and this first alpha seems like it isn't much different in layout compared to Eros. I'd love to see a PLR or a/d CP map in this setting. (I don't realistically expect Grizzly to do this.)

*this map, likewise, has a point. :^)

 

[Grizzly Berry]

If there was one bit of this map I'd ask Grizzly to change this early for the sake of originality, it'd be the gamemode/layout. We already have a mirror koth map with this theme, and this first alpha seems like it isn't much different in layout compared to Eros. I'd love to see a PLR or a/d CP map in this setting. (I don't realistically expect Grizzly to do this.)

I chose this theme because I plan to use it for my 72hr map, which will be Payload. Most likely this map is going to be scrapped and the bits I like will find their way into my new map.

 

[EArkham]

Saying a theme is somehow less valid because it's specific instead of generalized is beyond ridiculous. It's entirely up to the mapper how that's executed. Just using the Santorini assets or colour palettes shouldn't be generating this sort of resistance.

Taking an evening/sunset sky and abundance of warm lighting as I suggested in bakscratch's Eros thread, adding in more vegetation, gardens, and plant life, go with A/D or even PD, and you'd have something that is very definitely still Santorini-themed while being distinctive from koth_eros and Overwatch.

Or incorporating some re-coloured Egyptian or Mayann textures (make the stone blocks white marble, for example) with a volcanic themed skybox to give the theme an entirely different spin.

When the a theme is integrated with existing assets and the TF2 world narrative, the potential for variety should be stunning.

 

[seth]

Yeah, go back to Badlands. That's what I was saying this whole time. Come on. I'm not talking about layouts at all. You have so much artistic freedom when you use Badlands as an inspiration because Badlands' theme is desert. You can do whatever the fuck you want with a desert theme, so long as you include the occasional hoodoo and forgo the grassy blend textures. I'm just trying to say there is inherently less opportunity for creative detailing when the theme dictates what buildings must look like, how they should be textured, specific color palettes etc. You wouldn't be designing a Santorini map if you didn't have blue-topped buildings with blank white walls, because that's what Santorini looks like.

EArkham, I guess we just have fundamentally different views. You say it's entirely up to the mapper to decide how a specific theme can be executed, that's just not true. You must do a great deal of things a certain way, or else it's no longer whatever theme you said it was at the start.

I'm sorry for plaguing this thread with my unpopular opinion. Please keep doing your thing Grizzly. Haven't played it yet, but I'm sure it plays well, your 2014 72hr map was great fun.

 

[Yrr]

as if a theme with 3 maps isnt more original than the 2000 badlands maps

 

[Muddy]

sevin, you've made your point very clearly, but my question to you is: why do you care so much? Stating your opinion is one thing, but you're vehemently defending that opinion while at the same time encouraging Grizzly Berry to continue using the Santorini theme anyway.

 

[seth]

I didn't make it clear enough if people summed up my position as "just make badlands". I got responded to by several people who misinterpreted me. So yeah I tried to be clearer. Evidently I failed.