Microcontest 14: Trains

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Mar 15, 2018
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14bit

14bit

L14: Bit Member
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Oct 5, 2014
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Feedback time! We got a healthy turnout of 18 completed maps this time. Also a weirdly high number of symmetrical maps this time around as well. Regardless, it was incredibly fun seeing everyone's creative uses for the trains, and I hope to see some of these taken forward and refined!

A rather bare-bones KotH map to be honest. There's enough routes and the general shape is fine, but the combat spaces are uninteresting and overall it's too open. The point is too dangerous; not only is there a train, there's also massive sight lines. There should probably be a slightly safer spot to stand on or around the point. As it stands, you either need to hold way behind or way ahead of the point, instead of holding around it like in most KotH maps; it needs more something at the point, but I'm not sure what.

I really, really like this one, it's loads of chaotic fun! I wish the lighting was better, and that the platforms retracted sooner so you knew the trams where incoming. All parts of the trains kill you, not just the front, which is funny but probably should be fixed. I know you were debating removing the central train that hits the point, and I'd say I agree with doing that. Spawn -> mid is a bit flat; I think it works but I'd look into raising spawn like 32 or 64 units just to make it feel less flat. There's some iffy sightlines on the sides, and the side areas don't feel terribly useful overall. If the side routes provided a better angle for attacking the point or getting to the enemy's sides I think it would work better. The low ground also doesn't contribute much to the map; maybe have the area with the wooden stairs continue under the tracks on the sides and work them into a route to slip past enemies or something? I can provide a drawing of that idea if you want. Overall a solid start to a unique KotH map, and I really hope to see this continued!

I liked parts of the previous two stages, but this one just doesn't work at all. Blu's entrances to the first point area are too close and too small, and Red only has one tiny route there. It's unclear where Red is supposed to set up or defend from either; it's just not a well-designed or fun point. The lack of signage makes it confusing to navigate, and the train blocking most of the routes for extended periods of time just isn't fun or interesting. Having a train block a route is a neat idea, but it's been taken too far with this; it's too slow and doesn't lead to interesting gameplay. It technically counts for the bonus punch, but it harms the map more than it helps. The only routes that don't get blocked by the train are a confusing underwater tunnels that have no lighting and are using HL2 water so some people get visual errors and can't see at all. Light those better, or (preferably) lower the water and include a path under the train that doesn't involve swimming. Final is basically Dustbowl without enough routes; I know you've got the water routes but even Dustbowl has a way around on the side through a building.

This map defies explanation, and I'm not sure where to start? I guess the first thing is that it's using the koth_ prefix but it's actually arena. I don't think this map is trying to be serious, but even so there's quite a few issues that make it less enjoyable than it could be. First of all, it's way too dark so you can't tell who is on what team. Second, the spawn exits are quite odd; they're different for each team and there's only one for each team. I'd add at least one more per team, and make them the same for each team. The intention seems to be to allow players to get on the train and ride it to the point, but non-jumping classes don't seem to be able to get on the train. Heavies, Engineers, Spys, and Medics, which are really important in Arena can't reach the point at all because of this, and it leads to slow and confusing rounds. The train shoves people into walls sometimes as well.

I really like this one, though it might be a bit small? Or there's a lack of route variety. Something like that? Teams would find a working strategy and then nothing could be done to counter it, and I think it might be just a side-effect of the mirrored nature of the map and how close the spawns are. Offblast might be a good official map to look at for doing this kind of mirrored setup; the big difference is in where the spawns are and that might be a better move. Really neat use of the train to bring the point in! I like the general layout; there's enough going on that it didn't get stale until near the end of the map time. The train flank is very fun, and I think it could be worth trying out leaving the gate open after the train passes through.

Neat idea, very impressive for a first map! Some people really didn't like it, but I think there's enough good here to be quite novel. Seems a bit big, and a bit flat though; Snipers dominate and there's not much interesting geometry to traverse when fighting or heading to the trains from spawn. Having areas above and below track level would do a lot for making it more interesting. Station platforms near where the train stops would be great too; jumping up onto the train car mid-combat is just frustrating so being able to walk right onto it would make it much more enjoyable. I do not like the split spawns; they aren't common in modern TF2 maps since they break up teammates and can be very confusing for respawning players. condense it down to just one spawn in the center, and have doors that exit towards the different sides. I'd look into adding a tf_glow to the train so that players can find it at all times, too. Some kind of warning before it moves would be nice as well, like flashing lights or sounds alerting players they need to start shifting to the next area.

There's a decent enough base in here, but it's not there yet. The split spawns aren't fun, and one of the spawns is really, really close to the enemy team; I literally had enough time to go make a sandwich between lives since I died so early in several of the rounds because of the close spawns. That close-to-spawn route is also the only way up to the point, so you have to rush it if you want any chance at winning (or at least it feels like it). I also wish there was more relevance for the non-point area; without a way up to the point it's not hugely important to the map. I get there's a full ammo and small health, but it's not enough since every exit puts you at a disadvantage compared to the point. It seems like there was supposed to be a connection between the spawns, judging by the doors at the back of them; I'd see if you can find a way to connect those into a new, single spawn area and go from there.

Well shoot, I made another good one people want me to keep working on that I don't know if I'll have time for. A plays like I was expecting for Red, but it's a bit weird for Blu. Red pretty much has to stay either right on the point (which can be decently cleared) or has to hold from across the bridge, which is very hard. Blu ended up having a much harder time leaving spawn than I expected, so future versions will need some sightlines closed up and better resupply cabinet locations. The flat cars on the trains might need to be replaced with full cars; not sure. There's too much ammo between A and B, so that will need to be reduced. I like the A -> B connector, but B needs more testing. It's not bad but it could be better; there's some crazy sightlines and Red doesn't have much to work with other than the fact that Blu have to cover a lot of empty space to reach the point. Overall, it feels very unique, and I'm happy some of my wackier design choices seem to have worked alright.

I like the roof and the use of the Mercenary Park pipes; it's got a unique look to it! The geo is fun to play around, but I think it's too big. A big thing to remember about arena mode is that once players are out, they are out; the fights get smaller and smaller as the round goes on so having combat spaces scaled for 12v12 fights just doesn't work. Additionally, there's no clearly defined places to push or hold, so combat feels off. It feels like you should be able to crouch jump onto the angled bits of the roofs of the stationary train engines near spawn to get up to the boards, but you can't. A lot of the map is surprisingly dark, and it makes team recognition hard. Finally, the randomized trains are cool, but so much combat happens nowhere near the train that it feels like wasted effort. Moving the health pack to being on the tracks rather than next to it might make things more interesting.

I loved riding the train to the enemy spawn while on Blu; it was very fun. Unfortunately the train doesn't run both ways, so it's slightly asymmetric in that regard. That's sometimes fine for Arena (see Sawmill and Lumberyard) but I think with the train it's too much. The two solutions I can think of are making the train direction random, or switching to rotational symmetry so each team has a train to ride. That second one would be a really big change, so I'd give it carful thought before trying it; the map probably doesn't need it. The center roof should probably be clipped; it's quite powerful for Soldiers that get up there. I'd find an easier way to let non-jumping classes reach the upper floor of mid easier, though. I really like the mid building, the sliding doors provide some really interesting gameplay that I've not really seen in Arena, and help make the room feel safer and more interesting than the empty room that it actually is. I love the control point being on a train as well!

The A->B connector is needlessly confusing for Red. I think it's because there's no way to reach the second floor where most of the routes are, so Red is confined to a single route that isn't immediately obvious coming from Red spawn; the spawn makes me want to leave to the right with how it's built, but then the map draws my attention to the tunnel which is well let. Then, in the tunnel I can choose between a lit, outside route that only goes backwards, or a dark corner that is the real way forwards. Once you reach the building that A is in/at, you then have to pick between going backwards up a staircase, in a nicely lit but small hallway (that ends up not really going anywhere), or an exit to outside that has height disadvantage and goes right into a terrifying sniper sightline while also approaching the point from an awkward angle to defend from. I hope I've made my point here; it's completely unintuitive to navigate, and it makes it really hard to effectively reach the fight. For Blu, it's hard to tell how to get to B from A for similar reasons. Approaching A while knowing B is to the left means I'm drawn to the left doorway, but you have to awkwardly jump around a rock and go through a small door to realize you have to do a 360 on a staircase to continue forwards, after which you still can't see the route forwards without continuing down the hallway. There's much space between A and B; cut it in half and simplify the routing. Red needs more space behind final, too; the train doesn't come into play much, since all the fighting happens in front of it, rather than around it. A is really neat, but there's too many other issues to tell if it actually plays in an interesting way.

The train certainly kills people. I really not sure what's up with this layout either; getting anywhere is confusing to me. The combat space around the train just isn't fun. I like the drop site though! I brought up most of my issues with it during the test, so I'm not sure how useful it would be to repeat myself here. I think the underground bit is severely underutilized; the overground route is way more cramped and less interesting, but the layout pushes players there instead of down to the subway. Connecting the spawn courtyards to the stairs up from the subway on the drop site's end could be interesting. Upon third look, I now realize it does in a way, but it's very hidden and not obvious whatsoever. There's too many one-way routes, and overall its just doesn't have particularly interesting gameplay spaces. More interesting than Doomsday, but that might just be the novelty and the fact that you don't have to deal with the lift. I'd add Doomsday's thing where you have to wait for it to respawn, instead of it being instant.

Neat idea! A lot of people didn't seem into it, but I like it. Better than stock SD. The cap needs to be a big bigger, and you might want to make the actual zone slightly larger than the visual indicator for it; it's very hard to judge where exactly you are in space in an FPS a lot of the time. I'd turn shotclock mode on for the flag so you can't keep tapping it to reset the timer, and also make the reset timer much shorter. The drop site is quite hard to reach, so I'd look into opening it up more. I'm really not a fan of the giant roofs; all of the fighting on the whole map concentrates there and I think it ends up hurting the layout. Like, a lot. They provide too much cover, take up too much of the map, and aren't interesting to play on. It may just be personal preference, but I do not like them.

The train crash is fun, but the back end of the train kind of gets in the way. It's awkward to jump onto and across, and something about the collisions is off. I'd almost wait about 10 more seconds before introducing the train, or even having it be slightly random. At the moment it fells like it enters too soon, meaning there's little risk to running on the tracks to fight since it's already crashed by the time most fights start. It feels small, but that might just be the lack of meaningfully different routes and areas to set up in. It's a fine map, but it doesn't stand out or do anything new at the moment. I think spinning the interior bit where the train crashes into a more interesting space would work really well; it just needs a way to get in there without having to expose yourself to the main courtyard and maybe a larger upper area so that there's reason to fight over it (meaningful high ground over the point). The lower area might also benefit from being more separated from the center, too.

Very unintuitive layout with no signage. Playing for a while it starts to make sense, but I'm not sold on the overall structure. There's too many blind, one-way entrances into the intel room that it becomes a nightmare to push, and the routes to even get to those routes are confusing. Spawn has at least 5 unmarked doors that you can choose from when spawning, which is way more than should be necessary. There's these huge side areas and tunnels under spawn that are almost never used, since there's so few ways to enter and exit them. I'd almost cut them entirely and simplify everything if you keep working on this. The intel being so high up also makes it very hard to reach. Granted, you kind of need some of that for CTF, but here it's just annoying since there's only one way up to it for both teams and it's out of the way for both teams. Mid isn't fun to be in or cross. The trains aren't consistent enough or communicated well enough for players to meaningfully take advantage of them, please signal when they are incoming earlier.

I don't understand this layout. There's no clear routing to final for Blu; on Junction and Gravel Pit you can pass both A and B without going to them to reach final, but here you have to take a long detour to reach B to continue onwards if you aren't a jumping class. It's too big, and there's almost no signage at all; I'd almost cut the size in half! Too large, too open, and the advantages that Blu gains for capping just make things more frustrating rather than interesting. The trains don't do much for the layout either; they're not in places that see much interaction and as a result feel like an afterthought. I am not having fun, and I don't have much else to say.

I love how hard you've gone with the trains. The height variation is bonkers, but I don't know if it really works. Having only two ways up makes it really difficult to reach the point, and there's no real focus to any fights. It's neat how the layout kind of spirals around so that you take the high ground on the enemy's side; I don't know if I actually like it though. The low ground route is annoying to navigate up to the rest of the map through. It took me a very long time to realize there was a lower part to the cap zone. It's fun in a goofy way and makes for a few fun jokes, but I wish it was a little more focused.

Fast-paced, which is good for CTF. Layout is solid, though the courtyard and transition into the intel room have been ripped pretty much completely from Doublecross. Same platform above a rectangular courtyard with a shack containing health that leads to a ramp in the intel room. The trains don't seem important to the map at all; if you removed them everything would play the same. They're so incredibly easy to avoid and even miss completely that it took several rounds for some people to even notice them. It's a fun CTF map, I just wish it leaned into the trains more. Low player counts definitely skewed things, but it felt very very easy to slip past the whole enemy team, and for them to slip past you. Not really much more I can say; you are good at making CTF maps, and this seems like a pretty good CTF map!

And as usual for Season 2, here's the mode breakdown:
Code: 
KotH       5
A/D        4
Arena      5
SD         2
CTF        2

Once more, thanks for playing along as a mapper, tester, or observer! It's very fun watching you all make such cool things, and I'll be seeing you all next month for another microcontest.

Before I go, I think you all deserve a fair warning: MC15 will be this season's 5/5 difficulty one. See you then!
 
pont

pont

huh? wuh?
aa
Mar 15, 2018
345
522
ty for the feedback! the intent was that the trains on my map would offer an occasional fast route into the enemy intel, but i think i need to slow them down, send them out on a shorter interval, and stagger them so you don't have to be on the enemy side of mid to board the train in. reassuring to hear that i'm apparently okay at making ctf!! haha

..and yeah that yard is totally doublecross OOPS
 
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