Microcontest #18: Lockout

FloofCollie

FloofCollie

I really suck!
aa
Nov 5, 2016
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670
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14bit

14bit

L14: Bit Member
aa
Oct 5, 2014
661
2,121
Welcome back, I hope you've had a bit of time to wind down after this one. It's feedback time! We ended up with 19 maps, spread across 15 modes, counting multistage and medieval mode variants as separate modes. Not even a single KotH map, either! Strap in, this is the most feedback I think I've written yet since there was just so much to cover when you factor in all the different modes and stages:

@Idolon
Some of the most fun I've had in medieval mode, and I think that's because it's been combined with Arena so rounds are quick and snappy. For how goofy it looks I think the layout is actually quite nice; there's sniper decks to look at the far point, upper and lower routes though mid, and a few sneaky ways to reach the enemy side. I try to always give feedback that is actionable when I can, but I'm not sure what else you could do with this to improve on it since it's already a fun little map and adding more might hurt it. A few of the pits are hard to see since the textures blend into the skybox, but other than that I think it's about as good as this little idea can be.

@Sonoma
I think this is the best DE map I've seen in TF2. I know very little about how to design for this mode, but A seems a lot easier to plant on. I think that's because while attacking A there's a lot more viable routes, while B you're fighting against high ground or going though the enemy spawn to reach it. Logic broke on one of the rounds and the bomb went off but was still diffused, but you know that already from everyone freaking out and telling you in the discord. I'd add signs outside of spawn with arrows and point names so it's easier to get your bearings without a radar. I wish I could give more useful feedback, but it seems you're already hard at work at iterating on almost everything I could reasonably complain about.

@Ismaciodismorphus
I like the idea of a moving spawn on a train, but there's some annoyances that make the execution fall flat, like the lack of a proper respawn room setup. Add some doors to the respawn area, add a resupply locker, and throw on a second exit on the side of the train facing away from Red's spawn and I think it would instantly be a lot more fun to a lot more people. Sure, having all that might make it a lot easier for Blu to cap, but if you then mix up the points themselves with just a little more interesting geometry and cover for Red to set up in, I could see this idea really being something unique and interesting, even if it isn't a terribly traditional TF2 map. A lot of people didn't like it, but I thought it was kind of neat! I think it's you're best microcontest entry yet.

@B!scuit
A bit too small for my tastes. Arena works well when there's a bit of time between first contact between teams, and here there's none of that; the fighting starts way too fast for teams to get their bearings and set up. Additionally, there's not a lot of options and/or variety of routes, so the fight happens mostly on the point itself. Most of the official 1cp arena maps have large combat spaces that aren't the point itself so teams can pick where to push at the start of the round; check out Offblast's cliff routes and control rooms, Ravine's massive side areas and tunnels, and Lumberyard's upper floors and areas on either side of the central building.

@14bit
Too small, as feared. The rocket room upper platform is too tall, as feared. I'm happy it doesn't look or play like Doomsday, but the original ideas it does have are just too cramped to breathe. I likely won't continue this, but if I were to I'd make the rocket room larger and lower the tall platform, move the intel zone farther from the rocket, and generally expand the spaces to be more open and less cluttered. I had a weird fixation on blocking sightlines when designing the intel area this time, and it ended up hurting the layout as a result.

@zythe_
I like the train idea, it makes SD a lot more fun since you don't completely loose progress if the enemy gets the flag. Personally, I'd make the train heal the team that is pushing, like how the lift in Doomsday heals those that are on it. Since you're always pushing into enemy territory and they have an easier time reaching the train, I think it would really help balance things out. I believe you mentioned that the flag will now become neutral after a short while in the next iteration, and I really don't think that's a good idea; the map effectively is just Longboy with extra steps at that point. The flag itself will become mostly irrelevant except at the start of the round: it will likely never reset after the initial pickup, and likely never really leave the train at all. That means half of the map just... doesn't get played for 80% of the round. My approach would be to have the flag have a short cooldown where neither team can pick it up after resetting. It wouldn't have to be long, even just like 15 seconds, but it would allow teams to return to (and fight over) the dropsite again for another shot at pushing the train. To be honest this is how I thought SD already worked, but upon making one myself and looking at Doomsday, it is not.

@norfolk terrier
Please continue this, I really like it! You managed to think of a creative setting that works well for the mode, too, which is quite impressive. First up, the func_tracktrain is too tall for how tall the meat is visually, meaning it's hard to climb on top to tenderize the meat, and arrows hit break in mid-air. People were very vocal about not being able to shoot through the windows at spawn, but leaving those open is a terrible idea so I'd just put wood or glass in the windows. The first stage has a good variety of routes, and is generally well-designed from what I can tell. The placement of final right next to the spawn exits seems questionable at first, but factoring in limited range of melee combat and the fact that Nightfall stage 2 does something similar that works well makes it make sense. I like the first stage, but the second one isn't great. Next, DRAGONS!!!! While I'm extremely biased, I think they're the best thing I've seen all day. Yes, even a day later while writing this. Personally, I'd throw out most of the final stage except for the dragons. Stage two trips up by keeping the carts on your own team's side the whole time in a way that just doesn't work. Pipeline stage 3 makes it work (sort of) by keeping the whole track for both teams in neutral territory and having it all be rollback; here the layout allows one team to set up in the final area and prevent the other team from ever getting near the carts. If you really want to I think you could get the idea to work it you leaned much more into the Pipeline S3 concept and had the area around the track a lot easier to get to and made it a much larger rollback zone.

@*Turns into crocodile*
I like this a lot, it's tied with two others for my favorite entry this time around. It looks nice and plays well! The first round was intense and had a lot of good back-and forth; it just took far too long for a team to actually win. The cart feels a bit fast, for the length of the track, though you kind of have to do that for this mode to work. It almost feels like it needs a longer track, but at the same time you really can't bring it any closer to the spawns without it getting even harder to cap, so I'm genuinely unsure what to do about that. The only ToW map I've really seen work is Effigy by FubarFX, so maybe take a look at that and see how that does things? The spawns there are in a wildly different place than in yours (in relation to the track), but I hesitate to say you should move them since the whole structure of yours is kind of built around the current placement.

@Zeus3005
Very pretty, though everyone was very confused as you no doubt realized. I'm sure you've also noticed teams winning are backwards, since Blu won every round despite Red capturing every flag. Unfortunately even if you disregard the technical issues I still think it has massive structural problems. The barriers are annoying and confusing, even if they make sense design-wise (doors that shut when the flag is picked up might work better?). The flag resetting to neutral when the timer is half way up also causes problems; if you are killed right after passing into the barrier into the underground with the flag they can instantly cap the moment it becomes neutral. It's a fine mechanic for standards invade CTF layouts, but here I think it would work better if you disabled it.

@Tiftid
I don't think this layout works at all from the perspective of trying to make something in line with standard PLR gameplay. I was a bit harsh in the discord on it by saying that it "shows a fundamental misunderstanding of PLR as a mode" and saying that I was not having fun when you asked "if it's fun what does it matter if it misunderstands PLR?" For that I apologize; I get passionate about PLR maps since it's one of my favorite modes, just behind PASS Time and Player Destruction. While the map certainly was entertaining in the end, there's a lot of little things that I think could be easily fixed that would make it much more enjoyable. First, since the carts stay on your own team's side the whole time, it means there's not much combat until the end of the track, making it feel like glorified KotH; simply flipping the tracks I think would do wonders for making things more interesting in the first half. Side note: it's also really, really short for a PLR map, shorter than the singles stages in the multistage maps, I believe! Second, the routeing is a bit awkward for most of the track; it really feels like you should be able to reach the carts through the places blocked by chicken wire but instead you need to walk way around to reach them or rotate through. Just removing the cross-bracing and letting players walk off that ledge would also make things flow a lot nicer. Finally, final. It's somehow too cramped and too open all at once; I think it's because of all the fences give the illusion of lots of space, but they actually restrict fighting to boring hallways. I think it would really help if you let players access the tracks way before the carts reach it, and perhaps build some space on the other side of the tracks for players to claim and/or set up in so there's a bit more going on than just piling into the small room with all the doors. Oh, and speaking of the doors, they way they are set up now means that if a team gets ahead, they get free run of the room while the enemy is still blocked off until their cart catches up. It doesn't feel very good to fight against, since the map is just helping the winning team to win even harder. Overall it was sort of interesting, but in more of a "watching a car crash in slow motion" sort of way rather than one that felt intentionally designed.

@Sarexicus @Le Codex
I like this a lot! The Medieval/Arena combination is really good, and the fake arena logic you made seems to work really well. Not being able to change class is an issue, but you already know about that and I'm sure you're looking into it. The different little maps are all very fun, so I'm going to review all 5, going from left to right on the HUD.
  1. This is probably the most standard "arena" type round, but still well made. Feels like a KotH map.
  2. Conceptually I like this one a lot, it's just really easy to accidentally run off a the start of a round, which feels bad. It's neat how many routes you managed to pack into such a small space, though a little more room might serve it well, since at the moment the routes are only really wide enough to rush the point and there's not really an opportunity to flank with teammates.
  3. I like the beach a lot, and the hill is fun. No real complaints on this one, I think it might be tied with 1 for the best round.
  4. I was about to complain this didn't have a way to flank well, similar to the issue in 2 and suggest a route on the inside edge of the curve, but now looking at it after the test it does, in fact, have the exact route I was going to suggest! You might want to make it more obvious, maybe even block up the route to run directly onto the point from spawn; every round here was just a rush to the point from both teams and I think if you push teams to the sides with a barrier on the "road" next to the tower it would be a lot more interesting!
  5. This one is really cool, but also my least favorite due to the focus on the point. I wish it was easier to rotate though to the enemy spawn, maybe a route replacing those health packs that run around the red/blue buildings near spawn that connect to the alleyways on either side of the point? Just a few more options for pushing/hiding I think might help make it a bit more varied.
Overall very creative and interesting! I look forward to seeing what becomes of this, it's really good.

@onra77
Pretty basic arena map, works well. A lot of people really liked it, I personally just thought it was alright, though I'm hard to impress when it comes to Arena since I've seen a lot of them in my time here. It's got enough routes with enough variety, it just feels lacking in combat spaces somehow. There's a few, sure, but they all are just kind of large spaces with sightlines; some more smaller height variation and smaller cover would be appreciated. As it stands it feels more like a KotH map than something designed for Arena since it's hard to rotate and each team just sticks to their own side. That's not necessarily a bad thing, mind you, I just prefer arena maps to be a bit more dynamic in terms of pushes and holds. Finally, the point is a bit small and unmarked, so you might want to expand it and mark it on the ground. Sold start to an arena map, even if it's a bit generic.

@Zepavil
Having the gates that close when the intel is picked up kind of sucks, I feel like you could do it with dropdowns or other layout tricks instead somehow. With the doors, it means that the moment a teammate picks up the intel, they are cut off of all support and reinforcements, which isn't very fun to realize and is confusing the first time it happens. During testing I genuinely couldn't tell what was causing the jump pads to turn off, but now doing testing I realized picking up the flag turns off the jump pads on the enemy side. This makes sense from a theoretical perspective since you don't want defenders being able to get to the top easily in order to allow the team with the flag to get down, but in practice it isn't very fun. The routing and cover around the control point is a bit strange, and doesn't flow well. Overall an interesting idea, though the execution leaves much to be desired.

@Box Of Paper
A bit open, and the routes are lacking, but a solid start to a PASS Time map! I do notice that you've set up the jump pads (at least at mid) so that you don't take fall damage if you land right where they're aiming. Very nice! Unfortunately, most players airstrafe so they don't hit that platform then complain they took damage. They're also unmarked, which makes them hard to find and/or easy to use by accident. I recommend using the glowing jump pads I use in Gigantic, which you can get one of in the prefab for MC17 or in the prefab that I'll release eventually. Even using the yellow jump pad arrow overlay the official maps use is better than nothing. I think the height variation across the map might be a bit too tall? Not entirely sure, but it feels that all the combat takes place up top, and falling to get anywhere deals a lot of damage. It feels a lot like Brickyard in that respect, but even then Brickyard has lower routes through buildings (for reference, Brickyard is my least favorite official PASS Time map and don't think it should be imitated). Thankfully, the layout doesn't feel like brickyard and is much more focused. I like all three of the goals; the bridge to the throw-in one is very cool, the run-in being on low ground is neat, and the moving bonus goal is clever. In terms of the bonus goal, however, I think having it be both moving and the jump pad for it being so close to the enemy spawn makes it too difficult. Speaking of spawn, it's rather interesting that you went for a single spawn rather than the standard two; you might want to look into doing the forward/back spawns that the official maps do. Not sure if the map needs it with the current scale though. One of the better attempts at PASS Time I've seen, well done!

@Switchgeer
Extremely impressive that you managed 3 whole stages in 24 hours, though to be honest your time may have been better spent polishing just two stages even if the narrative of the map might have suffered. At first glance it seems overscaled, and while parts of it are, I think some of it is just lacking cover and interesting geomtery even if the distances are fine; notably the distance between 1A/1B and the distance between 2A/2B. Speaking of, attacking 2B sucks; there's one doorway into a massive flat expanse of sightlines. A single choke point can work in certain circumstances, but here it doens't; add some other route and more cover so teams have a chance at pushing forwards. Stage 3 doesn't have enough routes, so it just becomes a meat grinder. I'm surprised we captured 3A at all! I think the general structure and layout of the whole thing works, it's just lacking cover, smaller height variations, and routes all over the place. It seems to me that you're well aware of the issues, so I'm not sure what more I can say for now. Impressive work, even if it didn't end up playing well!

@FloofCollie
funny

Might want to fix the issue with the ABS PLR prefab where Red team can't block the Blu cart? I don't remember the fix though.

i like the slow door

and the hole in the window

@Rhamkin
Spawn and the flags feel very close at first, but I think it might be fine if you rework spawns to emphasize the route to mid rather than the route to the intel room. At the moment it's not an obvious route, so many people just walk through the intel instead. Mid is alright, if a bit big and flat. It feels very much like a no man's land; neither team wants to be there rather than it being a neutral space that both teams can use. The water route should probably become a route to the intel, since at the moment it's just a weird dead-end. I get that it's probably to help players escape with the intel, but players can't even reach it at the moment so it doesn't get used for that. I'd attach some kind of tunnel with a staircase that reaches the high ground above the intel personally, I think it would work well for letting spies sneaky pushes slip in and grab the flag. Other than that though, it seems pretty neat! I like the intel rooms, though you'll have to see how they play once they actually see combat.

@pont
Oh no it's good. Also holy shit a full TC map in (almost) 24 hours. I really think it needs the chalkboard to help teams situate themselves better. It feels smaller than both Hydro and National, and I think that might be a good thing. The points don't have descriptive names, so I shall refer to them as Shack, Tank, Factory, Tower, Red Base, and Blu Base.
  • Shack: Weakest point in my eyes, it's not interesting to be on or around the point. The connectors to Tower are too a bit too compressed for my tastes; you might be able to shift that tunnel over more to make it more separate from the other routes. The connectors to Factory are neat and interesting, though it's quite hard to attack Factory since you come from below most of the time. Might not be an issue, since this is the diagonal round and those tend to be harder. The connectors to Tank are fascinating, but I'm not sure they work. I think that's on Tank's end though.
  • Tank: I really like the idea of this point and the capture zone itself, but the way the layout is made/connectors work leaves a bit to be desired. I think the main issue is the vent; you already know it needs to be taller so people can walk though it, but I think it might just need to be made a whole passage rather than just a vent. Considering it's a main route for both rounds this point is connected to, I think it needs a bit more. It might work though, I'd keep it for at least another version. Other than concerns about the vent, both the Factory and Shack rounds seem fine.
  • Factory: As mentioned in the talks about the last two points, I think the fact that the basement is such an important route for all the rounds involving the Factory feels a bit weird. It felt very hard to attack the factory, so maybe consider lowering the point to the basement if it keeps being an issue? That would make it far, far closer to the connectors though, so maybe not. The sort of double-helix thing where the routes twist around each other during Tank is neat, but might need vent work (as mentioned before). The connector with Shack is fine; that round's problems are on the Shack side. The connectors to Tower seem fine.
  • Tower: I like the point design here too, it's fun to dip under and around the point. The connectors to Shack aren't particularly great; I'd almost open up the raised bit that's used for Shack/Factory during this round to give teams a bit more room. Most of the issues are on Shack's side of this matchup though, since Shack isn't a fun point. Tower doesn't connect to Tank, and while I think you mentioned that it probably could, I don't think it's really worth trying to work out the routes for it now if you didn't design for it originally. The connectors to Factory seem fine, though again it's a bit weird to attack from below.
  • Red Base: Oh wow, Blu spawns exceptionally close on this one. I'd find a way to push it back a bit more. The underground bit is interesting, but I think I like the other base more (even though this is the only one I actually played in a real match). Also Red spawns very, very close to the point. Maybe it's fine? I forget who won the round.
  • Blue Base: Reminds me of Strata's Museum last point. Now that I think about it, that might have also been the Blu base, huh. Regardless, I like the design of this one a lot, I wish I had seen it played. The lower floor could probably have a bit more headroom, but it's probably fine. Can't say much more than that without playing it.
Incredible work, I'm interested to see if you keep going on this one!

@Zenvora
Seems really neat, too bad it's broken. Any rounds involving the two areas that connect to the final bases won't let teams out of spawn, due to what I assume are the collisions intended for the final Base assult rounds being enabled during them. Regardless, I'll do my best to provide feedback on the little I played and what I can tell by looking at it! First, there should probably be spawn doors so you can't just lob grenades in and kill spawning players. Also, I think you should really get the round chalkboard working so players can situate themselves. The points don't have descriptive names, so I shall refer to them as Circle, Bath, Arch, Gazebo, Red Base, and Blu Base.
  • Circle: The point seems very, very close to spawn. I like the design of the point though! The connectors to Bath are neat, though should probably be more separated so teams can pass each other since at the moment it all goes though one room. TC tends to work best when there's (at least) two separate routes per round with one of those favoring Red and one Favoring Blu (from my experience). This is why the upper diagonal round in Hydro doesn't work; it's all one room. The connector to Arch has the same issue but worse; it actually is just one route. It's clever that both diagonal rounds are reusing this space, it's just a shame that it's not an interesting one. I'd add a tunnel, or just a lower route under the existing one (that is still used for both diagonals) so that both diagonals can have two routes. Alternatively, you can do what Strata does and remove one of the diagonals so you have more room to work with the one. Finally, the connectors to Gazebo seem the best, though the entrances and exits are far too close and you forgot to light the tunnel. Looking from Circle, I'd move the top route left all the way to the wall, and shift the exit (in Gazebo) over to the other side of the row of decorative arches compared to where it is now.
  • Bath: I like this idea for a point a lot, I'm just worried about the high ground over spawn. I guess it works for the Generator Room in Hydro, so this might work. The entrances to the connector to Circle seem fine from this side; most of the problems are inside the connector or on Circle's end. The connector to Gazebo is kind of garbage, since it's just a single staircase that's not immediately obvious. It's kind of neat this staircase is reused in multiple rounds though! The connector to Arch is not great either, since immediately after the two separate doorways the routes connect and funnel down into one. With the way this is set up it might kind of work, provided you immediately split it back out and had another route that feeds into the ah the wall at the top of the lower staircase, looking at Arch from Bath. Alternatively, rework the entire connector.
  • Arch: I think I like this point the most. The geometry is varied, and the areas seem fun to fight in. The way the point is build into the landmark as cover is really nice. The connector to Bath is just a single route shoved in the corner, which might work if you do the things to the connector I mentioned when talking about Bath. Alternatively, rebuilding this end of the connector by adding another route would also work. The connector to Circle is promising at first, but you quickly realize that it's just one route again. I like the entrance on this end of the connector though. Finally, the connector to Gazebo seems like it's the most interesting one in the map to me; shame I never got to actually play it. The routes are close, but this one might work? I couldn't tell you why, but I think it might. The main issues with it are on the other end, I think.
  • Gazebo: Seems alright, I like the area with the one bit of diagonal geometry in the map near the pillar, and the area around the Arch connector. The whole area seems like a fun place to fight. The connectors to Circle are okay, though all of the fighting stays on the outer edge of the map. In contrast to what I said earlier when talking about this connector from Circle's perspective, from here it would make sense to add an additional connector entrance where I said to move it to, but leave the existing one as well. The connector to Bath has a nice lead up to it, though it sufferer from being one route, as is the running theme again. Most of the issues with this one are on Bath's end or inside the connector itself though.
  • The connector to Arch is really interesting. The exits on Arch's end are very close together but the way the cover is built and sightlines are laid out it might just work, with the team that owns Arch sticking to the outer edge of the map and the owners of Gazebo taking the tunnel route. However, I do think the tunnel entrance might not be in the best place; it's under a prime spot for a sentry, and it being in the low ground means that if Arch is holding forwards up above it'll be really hard to get into it. Adding an additional entrance to the tunnel/building over by the pillar might work well.
  • Red Base/Blue Base: These are both the same, so I'll cover them at the same time. Please don't do this in TC, it's not fun. You can just remove the two rounds (and the two control points) from the logic and the game will end when a team owns all four center points.
Very interesting overall; I'd be interested to see another version of this one.

As usual, here's the mode breakdown:
Code: 
Medieval     5
  Arena        1
  A/D          1
  PLR          1
  ICTF         1
  Arena (M)    1
Defuse       1
Arena        2
SD           3
TOW          1
PLR          1
PLR (M)      1
PASS         1
A/D (M)      1
CTF          1
TC           2

Once again, thanks for playing! I'll once more see you next month for another microcontest. See you then!
 
Last edited:
Zepavil

Zepavil

L1: Registered
Feb 11, 2020
40
8
Thanks for the feedback! I'm gonna try and do another pass on the map for an A2, and see how it plays then. If it's still bad, I'll abandon it for now. Thanks once again for hosting!
 
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