KotH Chilltower

How to fix mid?

  • Simply widen what exists of mid

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Add something else in between spawn and mid

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Both!

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • Neither! It's perfect!

    Votes: 1 25.0%

  • Total voters
    4
  • Poll closed .

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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A4 is OUT!

I think I got all of the most major complaints I've been hearing about out of the way, so I actually got to work on detailing! :lol:
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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Today's feedback in a nutshell:
"Oh, mah gawd, the point's so bad we need to FIX THE POINT!'
A lot of people aren't realizing how little I ACTUALLY care about the control point. The map is designed aroung the people who love to hang around nucleus and hightower servers where you get kicked for capping. The point is literally just there for the sake of being there.

If it really matters that much, I'll decrease the cap time to make it easier to capture the point. But honestly, I'd prefer to focus my attention on making the map a blast to play on. And so far, people have had a lot of fun running around playing the map, so, then my work here is done.
 

killohurtz

Distinction in Applied Carving
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Feb 22, 2014
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But the thing is, you can make the map a blast to play on AND have a good point design. The objectives on Nucleus and Hightower can still be fun, even if the odd game turns out to be more of a deathmatch. IMO you shouldn't just settle for a mediocre point and say, "Oh, I don't care to fix the flaws in my design, people shouldn't be playing for the objective anyway" because that sounds lazy and it really isn't the model you should be aiming for.
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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Thinking about it, wouldn't lowering the cap time just fix the problem anyway? I mean in theory, the point must at least be some fun to fight on, otherwise, A: People wouldn't have capped AT ALL during the test, and B: If the point wasn't fun to fight on, and what with maps basically being required to be built around the point, then the map would just collapse in on itself, wouldn't it.

This isn't my way of trying to get out of work, really. These are actual thoughts.
 

chemelia

yndersn't
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May 11, 2014
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Yeah, but what killo is saying, and what I was saying during the test, is that quite a few people are not liking playing on the point. They're giving you feedback as to why, too. But what you're doing is just shrugging it off because the map is "non-competitive." Just because it's not competitive isn't an excuse for flawed point design.

As for your what you mentioned about people not capping if the point wasn't fun, that's not really true. I don't recall that ever happening in a playtest. Even if it's not fun, most people still want to win the round, no matter how non-competitive of a map you make. If you really do care that little about the point, why have one at all? In fact, if you wanted to make a DM-focused map where the objective is ignored, why not make ctf, plr, or even arena?
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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Alright, final thoughts:

I'll try to put more attention on the point, if at all possible.

Having said that, do me a favor and play the map knowing I have a target audience.
Because I will take criticism about the point, but you guys are playing the map as if I didn't even THINK about not making it competitive, and that's sort of why I was backing away from the feedback. Only like 3 people were actually playing the map the way I envisioned it, and those people were having the most fun on the map.

why not make ctf, plr, or even arena?
ctf: Map design doesn't support it
plr: Map design probably doesn't support it
arena: Nobody likes arena, making the whole point of an noncompetitive map, useless.
 
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killohurtz

Distinction in Applied Carving
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Feb 22, 2014
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Alright, final thoughts:

I'll try to put more attention on the point, if at all possible.

Having said that, do me a favor and play the map knowing I have a target audience.
Because I will take criticism about the point, but you guys are playing the map as if I didn't even THINK about not making it competitive, and that's sort of why I was backing away from the feedback. Only like 3 people were actually playing the map the way I envisioned it, and those people were having the most fun on the map.

What does that tell you, though? We aren't mind readers, we play the map the way your design suggests and criticize it accordingly. If the map you delivered differs from the map you envisioned, then you can't blame the players for not giving you the feedback you want.

Also, this target audience you're trying to cater to is a VERY small demographic (and certainly not a significant portion of this community), so it's no surprise that so few people played the map like you expected them to.
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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What does that tell you, though? We aren't mind readers, we play the map the way your design suggests and criticize it accordingly. If the map you delivered differs from the map you envisioned, then you can't blame the players for not giving you the feedback you want.

Also, this target audience you're trying to cater to is a VERY small demographic (and certainly not a significant portion of this community), so it's no surprise that so few people played the map like you expected them to.

If wanted to design the map according to how I envisioned it, I'd have to wall off the point, which I'm not planning on doing any time soon.

Honestly, I could make any map with any layout, and nobody here would ever immediately respond: "Oh, this is directed towards uncomp players" As it might take a while for you to just decide you want to mess around on the map instead of point rush it.

Also, the casual & noncompetitive players area is a HUGE demographic. Have you looked at the server browser recently? Mods and mario kart maps, all crit servers, 24/7 hightower servers as far as the eye can see.

However the last part, is unfortunately true. Too many people here don't like just jumping on hightower and screwing around, but it's one of my favorite things to do in TF2.
...So... how can I get this tested with a demographic that likes uncomp?

Also, let me repeat how I said that the people playing it the way I meant it to be played were having far more fun than the people who just point rushed.
 

ibex

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Sep 1, 2013
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Don't delude yourself. You created a map and people gave you feedback. You are just making excuses to avoid actually implementing some of the feedback in your design. Of course you get to choose what to do with your map, but not listening or at least understanding the feedback is only a detriment to the acceptance of your map by the general population.

If you don't actually care about feedback just finish the map and release it. Go throw it on gamebanana, advertise on reddit or some other server community. See how long people actually stick around and play it.


Furthermore, you shouldn't be telling your players how to play your map. Hightower wasn't released with the thought of deathmatch in mind, the players decided to play it as deathmatch. You can design your map in such a way to influence that sort of play, but koth certainly isn't a good option for that.
Tangentially related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsFnJYJ2buU
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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Okay, you know what? I'm done with this map.

This argument is getting ridiculous, it's giving me a negative impression of the people here, and it's giving the people here a negative impression of me.

I make maps because it's a help to escape drama, and it gives me something creative and constructive to do, and this map so far has just built up more of that drama.

I'm gonna make a map where I actually have to care about the point now, and I don't want to even remember this map existed.

I'm not saying that anyone here is wrong, I will take some of the feedback I received with me as a mapper, but ibex just sort of revealed what I was actually doing, so I have no choice here but to back out.
 
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ibex

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Sep 1, 2013
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so I have no choice here but to back out.

You have all the choices to make. You just need to make the choice to listen. It's a good skill to develop. It's basically developing some maturity. If you can listen and talk with someone, you'll be better for, and what you imagine and create will be better.
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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You have all the choices to make. You just need to make the choice to listen. It's a good skill to develop. It's basically developing some maturity. If you can listen and talk with someone, you'll be better for, and what you imagine and create will be better.

Ahem "I make maps because it's a help to escape drama, and it gives me something creative and constructive to do, and this map so far has just built up more of that drama."

I've made my decision, and we're done here.

EDIT: Also, I get the feeling you didn't read the whole post. I did say that I was gonna take a bit of what was said with me. But I'm going to have to disagree with you on sticking with the map and listening to feedback will build maturity. I've backed myself into a corner with this argument, so trying to continue this map would just be hell, because it would HAVE to end in 1 of 2 ways: 1- I fix the map according to the feedback, but then the intended flow would be greatly changed, and thus I wouldn't have felt like I achieved my goal. (keyword: felt like) or 2- I would NOT fix the map according to feedback, but the taste of the mappers here would just mean that I would continue to get bombarded with negative criticism, thus I would never know if I ACTUALLY made a fun map or not.
 
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killohurtz

Distinction in Applied Carving
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Feb 22, 2014
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Ahem "I make maps because it's a help to escape drama, and it gives me something creative and constructive to do, and this map so far has just built up more of that drama."

I've made my decision, and we're done here.

EDIT: Also, I get the feeling you didn't read the whole post. I did say that I was gonna take a bit of what was said with me. But I'm going to have to disagree with you on sticking with the map and listening to feedback will build maturity. I've backed myself into a corner with this argument, so trying to continue this map would just be hell, because it would HAVE to end in 1 of 2 ways: 1- I fix the map according to the feedback, but then the intended flow would be greatly changed, and thus I wouldn't have felt like I achieved my goal. (keyword: felt like) or 2- I would NOT fix the map according to feedback, but the taste of the mappers here would just mean that I would continue to get bombarded with negative criticism, thus I would never know if I ACTUALLY made a fun map or not.

Mind if I leave some final thoughts?

You claim that mapping is your escape from drama, yet you're creating it yourself by refusing to accept the constructive feedback everyone is trying to make. Right now you have three choices, though your assertion that you don't want our feedback probably leaves you with two.
  1. Accept the fact that not every map will end up the way you originally planned, open up to flexibility in your design, and take the advice of experienced mappers here,
  2. Take your map to Gamebanana or community that runs DM focused servers and get (arguably lower quality) feedback from the people you're mapping for, or
  3. Give up on a perfectly good map with potential.
And please don't go with the third. TF2Maps might not be the kind of testing community you had in mind, but don't dismiss us just because you don't like what you got.
 
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Another Bad Pun

In the shadows, he saw four eyes lit by fire
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Jan 15, 2011
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Apparently you're done with this, but I would like to leave something here.

People enjoy Hightower because it can be played both objectively and as a DM map. Some people like to play deathmatch on hightower, others are more focused on the cart objective.
In fact, the mechanics of the cart path allow this to be the case.

The start of the round usually has the most objective cart pushing. Then, both carts arrive at the ramp hallway, where they are guaranteed to be stuck for a while. During this time, Deathmatch ensues, with the superior team managing to push the cart up the ramp. When the cart is on the final stretch to the lift, one team goes on the offensive while the other goes on the defensive - or both at the same time. There is a final tower lift stage, which encourages even more randomness, and then the round ends with an explosion. A standard day on hightower.

I would argue that the most important aspect of hightower's appeal comes from how the PLR objective switches from DM and back at every turn. This appeals to both casual and "competitive" players. Your control point, the PLR carts, the gamemode itself, is the base and framework of your map. A map with a bad control point will not stand, no matter how casual it's supposed to be. This is why feedback is important. This is why the feedback was "fix the control point." A map maker must be willing to sacrifice their original vision in order to see both sides of the picture, all angles, in order to create a new map. Or a new vision. If you can do that, your map will probably be fun. I wouldn't ignore feedback at all, unless it's terrible. But you can lean certain directions.

I hope you don't judge this community negatively just because of our feedback. Most of us are coming from the right place.
 
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HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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Alright, I'll admit that I had my sights pretty tunnel-visioned. But I still have trouble admitting that drastic changes need to happen. (I'm not exactly one for huge changes, if you couldn't tell already. They heavily shift me out of what I got comfortable to, and I have a harder time adapting to such.) So when I'm making a map, it's difficult for me to get out of what I've come to love.

So, that being said, I'm still skeptical on my decision to continue. I'll leave the crack open for a solution to this. HOWEVER-

In the mean time, while this map sits in the back, I have a surprise project that I started working on. And let's just say not only am I sure you will enjoy it...
you already have ;)
 

Zed

Certified Most Crunk™
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Aug 7, 2014
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Is it Creekwood