-redesigned area connecting B to C
-combined 2 paths leading from E into B to C connector
-removed one path leading into upper area at E
-redimensioned the area around E to be larger
-many areas surrounding E have been slightly lowered to avoid unneeded height differences
-more blue spawn detailing
-detailing for A to B connector
-longer final point capture time
-modeled last point platform
-modeled spawn submarine
-artpassed B to C connector
-added soundscapes
-reworked skybox
-updated overview map
-various aesthetic tweaks
I went through the map, and I had some thoughts on improving its readability. A lot of really clever design decisions have done so much to make the map much clearer, but you can never make a Steel-like map too understandable.
While the arrows here make it clear where A and B are, if the map beyond was rotated slightly to align the blue and yellow sections with the arrows, it would make it much more immediately obvious that C is on the opposite side; you'd be able to look at it and instantly know where C is, instead of having to study it for a few seconds. I understand if you can't or don't want to change the map, though, because it does look pretty cool, but it would definitely help players conceptualize RED as being equally accessible going either direction.
It's obviously not a problem, but this elevator is such a cool design decision. I left BLU's spawn, saw the clearly-marked elevator, followed the wire up with my eyes, and realized that there was a second floor, thanks to the grate that lets me see the second elevator exit. Subtle signs are the best!
This is kind of a weird room. I assume that BLU players tend to come through the door on the lower right, but if I were to do that, then I would see the door on the lower level saying "Sector C" and go through it. Nine times out of ten, I wouldn't choose to go up the stairs, because there's nothing visible from where I enter the room that tells me that I can get to Sector C by going up that staircase. That could be problematic, because you're at a pretty big disadvantage if you take the lower entrance (which places you in a waterlogged canal far below the capture point) versus if you take the upper entrance.
This one might be a bit of a stretch, but say I'm a BLU player who caps A. I step off the point to the left and follow around the path here. The Sector C sign is very obvious when taking this path, but the Sector B sign is obscured. If I've never played the map before, then I'm going to naturally be pushed to the left instead of going to B. Again, it may sound like a bit of a stretch, but you might want to at least make a sign pointing out Sector B just as prominent as the one pointing to Sector C from this direction, if not more.
Let's say you're on RED, and A has been capped. You need to go to B, right? Well, there's currently only exit labelled "Sector B" in RED's spawn exit, but there's a door near it that says "Exit", so maybe you take that one. You'll end up here. The fastest way to Sector B from here is to take the stairs up. If I take the stairs down, then I'll be able to see yellow piping and a Sector B sign that will guide me to Sector B, but it's a much longer route than simply taking the stairs up. From this juncture, though, there's nothing that tells me that I should take the stairs up if I'm looking for Sector B. If you added some yellow piping, lighting, or stripe, or sign somewhere on the left, then that would make the secondary route to Sector B something that you could find by following the signs, and not something you stumble upon by random luck (as I did).
Is there meant to be glass here? There's nothing that really indicates that you aren't able to simply hop over that very small railing.
[EDIT] I took another stab at providing some feedback for Hadal, and I had several more thoughts. I didn't want to flood this discussion with my comments, though, so I'm adding an addendum to this one instead.
You see the grate in this photo? You can easily double jump/rocket jump/sticky jump/detonator jump right next to it and look through it, but this is what you see.
As clever and cute as this "Fuel Oil" sign is, I'm a bit concerned that most people in an actual match won't pick up on it and realize that there's a health pack if you explore this room. Not sure what you can do to make it more obvious, other than moving the health pack so it's visible from outside the room.
I'm a bit concerned that figuring out where the point is for BLU at Sector C could be a bit challenging, depending on which route they take to the point. Entering from this side is...okay, but I still think it would benefit from some sort of indicator towards the point itself. Upon entering from this side, however, you could definitely be forgiven for missing the point entirely and heading right, as I remember myself doing a couple times during play tests. Perhaps you could put some sort of indicator on both sides of C's "tower" structure to benefit readability from both entrances?
Say you're coming to the core from Sector A. You'll be met with this sight. If you want to go to Sector B, there's a clearly-labelled path to the left, and another to the right. The only problem is that you can't actually follow the "Sector B" line on the right unless you rocket jump or do some complex Scout double jumping through the gap in the wall under the stairwell, which is counterintuitive. There is actually a right path to Sector B if you're tenacious enough, but it requires you to take the stairwell up to the top, which, as I mentioned previously, is a route that requires you to stumble upon it by accident. Perhaps you could reroute the yellow piping from the core so it goes up and to the right, going in front of the stairwell, and finally going up to the "secret" upper route to B. That would also help RED players leaving spawn onto the stairway realize that they can take the stairs up to get to B, as I mentioned earlier. Alternatively, you could just block the "Sector B" sign from the view of the entrance to the core from Sector A, and everyone would just take the left route.
After capturing point B, if you go to Sector A, then the sign (and entire corridor) leading to Sector C is easy to overlook, mostly because of that stack of blue barrels that obscures it when coming around the bend. I would guess that many BLU players who initially go to Sector A would end up taking the connecting route to Sector B instead of going left, not realizing that they just wasted a bunch of time by taking a longer route and also not capitalizing on BLU's potential advantage when it comes to Sector C by attacking the point from both sides at once. I personally would replace the stacked blue barrels with exploding barrels which blew up after BLU captured B, thus revealing the sign to Sector C, but there's probably a much more elegant solution that you'll use.
I've spoken a lot about improving navigability between Sectors A, B, and C, but I also think there are a couple of routes to the core that aren't very obvious. That can be just as important, because you don't want the fight over the final point to largely consist of people running around all the corridors, unsure of where they are. The shortest route to the core (or, in RED's case, back to the core) should never be too much of a challenge to find, even though you're probably safe in holding the players' hands less when it comes to traveling between the three exterior sectors.
There's this small route to the core branching off of Sector B down this otherwise-unused (after B is capped) corridor that I doubt anyone would know to use. And it's not like it's being used very often to go from the core to Sector B; that requires a pretty tricky jump. I think it makes sense to have the route there, but there's no way that anyone on BLU not already intimately familiar with the map's layout would know that the core is accessible there, because there's nothing that indicates it.
I would also recommend adding a "Core" arrow (perhaps using white paint?) pointing to the right here, and another one pointing to the left here, so as to improve the flow of BLU players from Sector A to the Core and discouraging them from turning right to go to Sector B after already initially choosing to go left from spawn. Note, though, that for more BLU players to pick up on this, you'd still need to move/destroy that stack of blue barrels I mentioned earlier that obscure the sign to Sector C. I would suggest simply closing off that connecting tunnel from A to B once B is capped, but I imagine it's probably useful for preventing RED from pushing back into Sector B and camping it for long periods of time.
And to finish up, there's this surprisingly confusing room right next to point D which gives no indicator that point D is on just the other side of the wall. Say you're on RED, and you go through this doorway, ending up in this room (because you're chasing down an enemy or looking for a fight or whatever). Sometimes you'll go beyond that room, but in the simplest scenario, you take out an enemy player in that room, and that's as far as you go. Now that you've taken out your target, you need to get back to the core (or in another scenario, perhaps someone's capping D, and you just need to take the fastest path onto the point). Whatever it is, you look around; you look left, and you look right. The best choice back to point D is obviously the doorway in the right photo through which you originally came, but there's nothing that indicates that the core is that way. I'd bet you that most people would end up going down this path, which is the start of a much longer route to point D. This affects both RED and BLU, since that doorway is a very convenient entrance directly onto point D compared to going all the way around to Sector C. I would add white-painted "Core" indicators to the doorway there to make it clearer.
That's it for serious feedback. My only other thoughts are tiny, cosmetic criticisms:
While it's hard to capture it in a still image, the effect of looking at these white sheets of metal with horizontal stripes through the floor grating on Sector C while moving is strange, somewhat psychedelic, and distracting. At best, it detracts from Sector C's aesthetic. I would replace the texture with something solid-colored, at least on the side visible through the grates.
Looking back, I wrote much more than I expected (especially in the second round), and I apologize; I'm hopeful that I wrote enough helpful things to make up for the overall waffle. You have a truly unique map here, and I hope you make it as good as possible! I look forward to playing it as an official map someday soon
This railing isn't clipped on B. I'll compliment you made an awesome map while I'm here, I found this while theorycrafting my Engineer defense.
(also you can build in RED spawn) I kind of like placing a teleporter here for my team, but it can be griefable by teleporting a BLU Spy into your spawn, and as this Engi has done, make their sentry sapper proof.
And for some reason these two doors didn't close for RED while BLU capped C (which should block these exits).
From above, it seems if a player is standing inside the door trigger, it will remain open for the remainder of the round instead of closing as intended.
*And one more thing (I can't stop editing this), RED should be capitalized in the BLU team goal string (which reads "Take Red's main point..." should be "Take RED's main point...")
** And the RED spawn elevator likes to kill people when they spawn as it is moving.
I was playing today and noticed this hole in the wall (figure a misplaced nodraw) at the upper C to Main connector.
Here @ -815.905640 682.771790 744.031982
This glaring hole in graphics inspired me to continue writing down issues I found with the map.
All these grates in the surrounding area (not pictured) allow explosives to damage players underneath them. I noticed some places like on C and B prevent this, so for consistency I vouch you should apply it to all grates in the map.
Here @ 1179.915283 -1452.025391 430.002075
For example, you can get clever and shoot stickies from under C and to this health kit and it will damage enemies above it.
(From) Here @ -441.754944 1245.326904 212.100830
Hard to screenshot, but this metal trim is z-fighting with the red wall (also another grate with the explosive issue)
Here @ -469.449890 2260.909668 419.426422
And since this is on C, perhaps an improvement to the monotonous soundscape could be adding (quiet) fan noises from Mercenary Park to Sector C to break up the audio a little.
This wall light is being eaten by the wall
Here @ -21.210186 958.425476 409.902283
This resupply sign hangs just a little too low on the doorframe itself, which I think looks odd and would look better raised just a tiny bit, like 4 or 8 HUs. In the same image, that tiny little beam right of the door has no clip brush and you can improve the map by a fraction of a percentage by smoothing it out, so nobody gets blocked by it.
Here @ -312.210999 395.049500 691.165710
I get stuck on these trims often while defending this area above Main, including that brush in the background with the buildings. Those buildings in the background are on solid pipes and they mess up my building placement too because they're solid. Selfish feedback but making them nonsolid would fix this minor annoyance for me in addition to a small clip brush meeting the wall to that protrusion so it's smooth.
Here @ 635.247070 -270.958923 783.429749
There are still some walls and corners unclipped here and can get you caught on them. This triangular protrusion's beam trims in particular, as well as the tiny corner in the doorframe in the center right.
Here @ 685.087402 822.091675 513.066467
Behind that area, this little trim right of the Sector C sign could be improved with a smooth clipping brush.
Here @ 1243.971191 554.459290 452.031311
Those steel beam supports above Main look a bit off to me with their lighting, but this is a minor nitpick.
Here @ 215.232269 884.522461 933.734375
1) You can wedge yourself between those handrail clips, potentially undoing your smooth movement which can be annoying.
2) This door trim isn't clipped and get you caught on the trim.
Both here @ 1851.296265 621.181824 644.031311
The overlays beneath the health and ammo pickups not only don't match, but they blend into the floor on some spots (like the balcony of Main) and it can be troubling to tell where they may spawn. There may be more, but here are the two I got that are mismatched. I'm assuming you want white for health and red for ammo.
Main Core's floor (white health, red ammo) @ 79.101555 230.325302 341.489990
Main Core's bottom balcony (white ammo, red health) @ 326.590118 923.759033 513.257874
This is really noticeable on Main's top balcony where the dark red patch (for ammo) blends into the floor here and makes learning the map more difficult than it needs to be, and there are a couple areas where camouflage happens . Without squinting or prior knowledge, it looks empty. I would vouch for patch001 instead of patch005 (if I identified it correctly) for ammo kits across the level. That way they stand out more against the background.
This ammo crate is missing a patch underneath it at the C to Main top connector. You can create an invisible displacement, set it nonsolid to everything (no hull, ray, collision, all 3 checkboxes in the displacement tab) and apply an overlay to it.
Here @ 284.490112 1169.543579 644.031311;setang 18.405361 145.246613 0.000000
Although this walkway is clipped off, you can stand on air here and catch someone off guard below you (is this an edgebug?). You could try extending the clip brush 1 HU further out to fix this, but I haven't had such an instance myself to know if it will.
Here @ 806.210022 517.577026 964.031311
Only spectators will realistically see this, but it takes 5 seconds to fix the sign to face the right way. (it is possible to see it in normal gameplay however after C is captured)
Here @ -807.577698 746.481323 699.039856
I saw a Demoknight get caught on these beams because they weren't clipped, so consider adding clip brushes to smooth them out.
Here @ -1826.951294 -674.746948 366.559387
This small indentation in the wall and the railing to the right of it aren't smoothed out with a clip brush, and you could improve the map by tiny fractions by adding some.
Here @ 743.968750 402.437256 644.031311
The instruction message still says "Red" and not "RED", though it now shows the attacking icon which is good.
This one's good, and it could just be a bug with the HUD (because I did see the proper shield icon for RED once), but the defender's icon instead of the generic TF logo would match consistency with other maps. So just in case that wasn't changed, I'm mentioning it now.
This is understandable, but the nav mesh is not bot friendly at all. Paths that become blocked and unblocked are not marked as such (or don't appear so on my end), and once the Core is raised, bots would have incorrect information on how to access it. Honestly, the work might not be worth it, though it could be feasible with someone experienced making nav meshes. Then again, Valve bots don't have the best track record supporting more exotic map types. I don't blame you for ignoring this one.
cp_steel (the map Hadal gets compared to) has a detailed missing briefing about its Control Points, but Hadal lacks one. In fact, it's misleading because it claims BLU must own all control points to win, which is false. For what it's worth, I've been in at least one game where people seemed to believe this and captured all points before approaching the Core. While it's a small detail, it helps new players who spend time here before choosing a team/class, just like Steel does. In fact, I'll write it for you and don't even have to credit me. I tried to keep it simple without being an info dump and you can change it as you wish.
Objective:
RED team wins by defending the Main Core point until time runs out. BLU team wins by capturing RED's Main Core point at any time to win the game.
BLU can capture Sectors A, B, and C to make capturing the Main Core point easier. Each Sector once captured will perform these actions:
Sector A) - Opens new routes to B and raises the Core slightly. RED's elevator closes access to Sector A and moves to the 2nd floor.
Sector B) - Opens new routes to C and further raises the Core. RED's elevator closes access to Sector B and moves to the 3rd floor.
Sector C) - Extends a walkway to the Main Core and fully raises the Core. RED's access to Sector C closes.
Main Core) - BLU can capture this point at any time to win the game.
Other Notes:
Control Points cannot be captured while they are locked. RED team cannot regain control of a point once BLU has captured it.
(how cute I can even edit it myself)
On top of this, Steel has an introduction movie. I'm not going to suggest you make one since most people don't watch these, but it does highlight the attention that Steel's mappers put so new players could learn it.
It also had a very simple chalkboard rather than a complex map at spawn detailing the entire level, which also showed players where they had to go. It even changed depending on the map state and had a dedicated observer point I believe for each team to observe said map state via the chalkboard as they were dead. Hadal lacks these small helping hands.
Essentially all doors in the map can have buildings built inside them. You can add a nobuild trigger to prevent this. In RED spawn in particular, even after a gate closes, you can use a teleporter built inside them. It's not really useful, but it looks odd anyway. I didn't get coords because it's map wide.
I don't know why this beam bounces stickies off of it when it never moves, but it does. You can just revert it to a func detail.
Here @ RED spawn
Not important, but the backside of these ceiling grates (where the red light is) is the metal beam texture and don't match what's under them. Fixing it does however seal that tiny forbidden immersion breaking knowledge.
Here @ -211.231308 -698.517029 841.862122
Now with all that out of the way, I'll also include my thoughts on the map as a player after plenty of time has passed.
I enjoy the map for its complexity and tactical nature. I've played all the classes on Hadal, and everyone can find something to do. That said, people still get lost, don't know where final is (one person asked and had to be explicitly told where to go to reach it as RED), and some are vocal about the long respawn times. I consistently find teams backcapping final and either go uncontested or like a single Medic runs in and dies because their team doesn't know the map. It wasn't as prominent on Steel because not all classes could capture E and the cap time was notoriously slow. By the time everyone could cap E, RED would be facing E too.
I had a match where we as BLU team could not attack A and it took until overtime for us to decide to just go cap Main. Only one RED group tried to defend it, and we won because nobody else on the enemy team turned around to defend the point when we really should have lost that.
I feel a big part of why people don't defend Main is because the spawns point you towards the opposite direction and a casual player is tunnel visioned ahead of them. You made good changes increasing the cap time and adding signage to the traverse the map at least, because it did get better giving RED more reaction time. Perhaps a gentle reminder using game_text_tf could help against the backcapping issue? Only on the first instance a BLU player attempts to capture the Main Core, a pop up for RED will read "Defend the MAIN CORE at all costs!" with the "!" icon.
Another option, if subtle, is to set a required observer target input to the Core when BLU attempts to capture it so respawning RED players can maybe notice they're getting backcapped.
Also, the elevator is still killing people at times when it rises (I see it in the killfeed), which is not fair to anyone respawning. Maybe as a failsafe, RED can get a ForceRespawn after it's done rising.
Edit: I forgot one
Here at the core, I think there's an invisible brush where the Sentry is placed on after the core raises. Sometimes it messes up movement and I've seen it blocking people including myself when there's nothing to indicate it as such.
Edit 2: To make sure you're aware, it is possible to damage enemies through the setup gates with explosives (such as the Rocket Launcher).
And on top of that, the observer point for Sector A can be viewed by BLU even if they don't own it. I think both teams always get a view of it, and I've caught players this way.
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