Competitive mirrored 5CP maps

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by NoirSuede, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. NoirSuede

    NoirSuede L2: Junior Member

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    I'm scrapping my KOTH map and i've decided to try and make a competitive mirrored 5CP map, but after looking at the hate Croissant gets, I have to wonder, can a competitive mirrored 5CP map that's well liked even possible ?
     
  2. Lampenpam

    aa Lampenpam

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    I don't think that symmetry like in croissant will make your map terrible and not fiting for comp. I think Croissant is just a bit too clustered.
    And if people actually hate this kind of mirroring so much, just mirror one half of your map again and you got your usual 5cp map.
     
  3. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    Terrible, probably not. But rotated maps are much easier to get the hang of than mirrored maps, because mirrored maps technically are laid out differently on each side - on one side of the map you'd take a left turn to get to the objective, but on the other side you'd take a right turn etc. It works better for koth maps because they're much smaller and simpler than 5cp maps.

    Couldn't tell you much about the comp side of things though, except for the fact that they seem to have something against mirrored maps. Doesn't stop them from playing on Viaduct though. Weird bunch.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  4. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    Mirrored maps have minor balance issues in the fact that your weapon shoots off center to the right of your screen (or rarely, to the left, depending on your view model location.) For this reason, it's best to eliminate that variable and use rotational symmetry.
     
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  5. NoirSuede

    NoirSuede L2: Junior Member

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    OMG IT'S CRASH !!!

    but seriously though, every comp 5CP map derives something from Blands/Granary whether the spires or the last's structure, how do i differentiate my map without being too alien/bad ?
     
  6. Vel0city

    aa Vel0city personal pick-pocketing parrot

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    Experiment. Literary. Try something new and have it tested. If it's liked you're golden. If it's not liked, try something else.
     
  7. Yrr

    aa Yrr An Actual Deer

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    i think the key to doing something unique that works is understanding the difference between "doing something thats never been done before" and "changing something thats never been changed before"

    the differences and similarities between well-liked maps is probably telling of what can and can't be changed while remaining enjoyable
     
  8. Lain

    aa Lain Resident wrong opinion holder

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    From my map thread for Banana on why I was switching to rotated symmetry.

    Also Croissant isn't a good map to look for design choices in, Arnold likes to make extremely wacky gimmick designs and force them to work. Even his most played map, Gullywash, has some very large layout issues. (for example, it is extremely hard to push from last unless you wipe and you have an uber, there have been pro games where people have tried to push out of last 16 times) and you can bypass second altogether and just go to last. That's never good.

    If you want to look at how to differentiate a map without it being bad, look at Snakewater. It features quite a few unique design decisions (a few that backfire a bit) but is very different from the mold.

    You say lasts are stale, but I don't think you know what you're saying. I'm just going to say this, there is nothing like Badlands last, Process last, Snakewater last and Sunshine last. They are all as unique as can be, but I feel you're not looking at the design of the gameplay area, and more just as the geometry. If you're looking at the geometry, Badlands and Gullywash are very very similar, both feature a highground surrounded by a lowground with a point on it, with a straight shot to the point in one door, a direct passage to the highground and a way to get behind the enemy. But that's not what makes the point. It's the gameplay. In Badlands every entry has its advantages and disadvantages, letting one defense area slip up can spell loss for the whole team. Every class is more or less given a place. Sniper has his sightlines, Soldier and Demo have their spamming areas and Scout can easily get from one side of the highground to the other. None of this beauty is present in Gullywash, all areas lead to the same combat area, you can get from one highground to the other as any class almost instantly, one pyro can hold the whole last off by using that quick pass from one highground to the other, an Engineer covers the WHOLE last, and there is no easy way of destroying the sentry gun without uber.

    tl;dr flipped symmetry doesn't benefit gameplay, croissant is bad, lasts aren't stale, stop looking and geometry and look at gameplay.
     
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  9. saph

    saph L4: Comfortable Member

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    @Fr0z3n posted a great message on The Future of Compensation for TF2 Mappers.
    Really, this sums up MOST maps. A few things here and there are different. Most of the time, bridges or buildings are middle, spires or some form of raised platforms are second, and final normally just has various heights all encompassing the point. Glassworks actually has a spire-like second in early alpha! Keeping similar maps is great because it reduces the amount of playtesting needed for the map as an overall, but really, new ideas are needed. The best thing you can do is just test it out, work out kinks, and worst case, hop to the 5CP default described above. The biggest con is that most 5CP maps seem very similar because the layouts are generally the same.

    Now for the main point of the thread, in most cases regular symmetry isn't the best option for competitive design. @Crash probably described it the best. @Lain posted some great reasons to why he switched Banana over to rotational symmetry.
    Really, unbalanced routes or major sightlines are harder to avoid with regular symmetry. Viewmodels are also one of the main reasons (as mentioned above). Having to relearn the map to play as the other team isn't really enjoyable always. Being able to play on either side with no trouble means more time having fun (you'd hope) and less time practicing.
     
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  10. MoonFox

    MoonFox L10: Glamorous Member

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    not what I have to offer, but mirror it with teams in mind, look at 2fort, perfectly symmetrical, except the design. give each team a different feel in design, or at least make sure the player isn't confused if you don't. that's why there is a clear distinction between Red and Blu, back to 2fort: industrial complex vs a old farm building, there you go. Of course the difference can be subtle, CP/CTF/KOTH_well is another example, regarding the minor subtle details.