Balance Changes

[Yacan1]

But why? This entire blog post is about us knowing what will change, and its an update for the pyro and they give us no information. Maybe the changes will be terrible but nobody can say it to valve.

Considering valve linked the site "from pyro with love" which highlights the most blatant and massive problems with pyro currently, I'd have to say they're listening on some level and know what is needed. Like client side/ server side fire particles and hitboxes. I have a feeling they kept it because of the amount of testing that is being done with it. It's also possible that the finishes they needed are already done. Maybe these balancing changes were made already with the new pyro changes in mind? We can't say until the update drops.

 

[Aquadango]

Glad that the ambassador is getting a nerf. The spy isn't a sniper and if people wanted to headshot people just play sniper.

 

[Pocket]

Anyone notice that they've basically back tracked on a number of the item mechanics. Nobody ever used bonk because of the "crash" like effects that happened after. Sure you could maybe get past that sentry if an enemy player isn't blocking your way (a big if on some maps, particularly CTF), but you'd always get run down right after because of your temporary speed nerf after-the-fact.

Yeah, I thought the downside of having Bonk was supposed to be that it takes up your pistol slot so you can't reasonably attack anyone from a distance. Or does everyone just think the pistol as useless anyway?

 

[Etasus]

Or does everyone just think the pistol as useless anyway?

I personally feel that the pistol was the single best secondary in the scouts arsenal and that Bonk never even came close... I may want to adjust that statement though, as the new pretty boys pocket pistol is looking pretty good...

 

[Pocket]

Oh, and I'm surprised they didn't mention anything about buffing the Dalokohs Bar; does anyone ever use that thing? Always came across as pretty useless to me. Maybe if they made it so you can keep walking while you eat it, and can switch to a weapon as soon as you've taken the bite before you finish chewing.

And since they'll now be removing the marked-for-death penalty from two of the... what, three? ...items that use it, including what I think the first place they used it, maybe they could rationalize finding a new use for the Fan of War and remove the effect from the game entirely. I always hated that there are two ways to represent the exact same status effect and that one of them looks exactly like an unusual effect.

 

[Asd417]

I hope they change how solemn vow works.
I mean, who needs it when you can simply use custom huds to look at enemy health?
It needs a complete rework, or just disallow custom huds from ever displaying enemy health.

Warrior's spirit is also useless.

 

[Atlusia]

I like this scout nerfs, the Bonk nerf was needed and the Sandman nerf is something I've wanted for quite a bit, although I am going to miss Sandman and flying guillotining people from across the map.

 

[Crowbar]

you can simply use custom huds to look at enemy health?

I think a custom HUD that allows you to do that can already be considered cheating. Knowing enemy's health while they don't know yours without any gameplay-wise effort is obviously an unfair advantage, close to the definition of a cheat.

 

[Tumby]

Yeah, I thought the downside of having Bonk was supposed to be that it takes up your pistol slot so you can't reasonably attack anyone from a distance. Or does everyone just think the pistol as useless anyway?

From what I have heard, comp players think that a scout secondary where the only downside is "not having a pistol" is already a better weapon than the pistol.

 

[grazr]

From what I have heard, comp players think that a scout secondary where the only downside is "not having a pistol" is already a better weapon than the pistol.

So the 12 vs 12 meta balance is now being dictated by the tiny competitive scene which has never played the game as intended? It's not like they have their own black list or anything.

 

[nitewalker]

a competitively balanced game is a balanced game. the weapons in this game are so completely out of wack and relying on the only way that the game is played seriously as the benchmark to balance the weapons on is by far the best way to balance.

bonk is broken for a number of reasons. the scout is at his highest damage potential when he is close to an unaware enemy. in order for a scout to do this, he has to navigate the map in a way that prevents him from taking fights against groups of enemies and find opportunities to attack people who are not suspecting a scout to be behind them. right now, it is painfully easy to pop bonk, run a mile behind the enemy team, and then take a fight in exactly the way the scout wants to take a fight, whether harassing enemies as they spawn or finding enemies that are behind the main line of fighting and easily picking them off.

losing the pistol doesn't effect scout significantly for a number of reasons. first, scout has the most powerful close range weapon in the game, which encourages a scout to fight in that range. second, the scouts high move speed and double jump makes tracking as a scout player more difficult in close and mid range fights, making the scattergun more reliable in both of those situations. third, the pistols random spread beyond the first bullet means that the pistol is not reliable in any sense of the word beyond mid-range, where the scattergun is already a superior weapon. fourth, even if you are out of scattergun shots and reloading one at a time, the scattergun's dps is still comparable (only slightly worse) than the pistol at mid range assuming you hit every shot.

so, look at the fact the bonk changes out your weak long-mid range weapon with an option to effortlessly get into close range with an enemy and it becomes pretty obvious why the bonk is not a well balanced weapon.

 

[nitewalker]

also, it's incredibly disingenuous to say that pubs have any sort of "meta" beyond spamming engineer on lasts and ubering a demoman to clear that. the skill level of the average pub is so scattered that just about any class setup and weapon usage can win a pub. this is coming from someone who has 600~ pubs on the new system and an uncountable number before that, and played in gold highlander and intermediate 6's

 

[Idolon]

So the 12 vs 12 meta balance is now being dictated by the tiny competitive scene which has never played the game as intended? It's not like they have their own black list or anything.

The philosophy a lot of people seem to be taking is that games should be balanced around the highest level of play and letting lower-levels of play adjust to whatever balance changes get made. I don't totally agree with the idea (the game should be balanced around competitive play but saying pubs can do whatever is a half-truth) but its the prevailing opinion across pretty much any game with a competitive aspect right now.

 

[Mikroscopic]

It occurs to me that well-experienced players and average-experienced players have very different ideas of which weapons are balanced. To me that means there are very uneven skill ceilings across most weapons, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.

For example, I wouldn't say that the scattergun is one of the most powerful weapons at all, but of course that's coming from someone who once missed six shots in a row on a sniper running in circles during humiliation.

 

[nitewalker]

sure, thats a fair thought, but would you rather balance the game around what a brand new player is capable of doing or what the best players are capable of doing? sniper is awful in the hands of the average pub player, but buffing the class would cause a good sniper to ruin a server. thats why you balance based on what the serious, good players are capable of doing with a class.

 

[Mikroscopic]

I think that a change in skill shouldn't translate to a shift in what weapons or classes are viable. No weapon should be better for players of a certain skill level and worse for others.

 

[nitewalker]

thats just not possible though, there isn't a way that you can balance a game like tf2 to have no shift in viability whatsoever between weapons or hell, even classes. a spy with better positioning is going to make exponentially better use of every knife when compared to the average skill gradient - likewise with heavily aim-based weapons.

 

[Mikroscopic]

Well then you can't just say that balancing around the best of the best will automatically balance the game for the rest of the playerbase. If you design a weapon to be used by someone with perfect aim then it's going to be useless in the hands of anyone who hasn't practiced extensively with it.

 

[nitewalker]

thats fine though. certain weapons can be "unlocked" in usefulness after you reach a certain skill level. weapons already exist that do this, the loose cannon and the sniper rifle being good examples of weapons that demand either a large amount of practice or a high personal skill level. weapons that are easy for newer players to use are fine too - as long as they dont have the capability of being abused by a good player. a weapon like the flamethrower or the huntsman are good examples of these sorts of weapons - lower skill in general, with some quirks that allow good players to still gain an edge without being excessively powerful. when weapons exist that allow good players to effortlessly gain an extreme advantage (bonk being a good example of this) it becomes an issue in both pubs and competitive gameplay.

 

[Hyperion]

a competitively balanced game is a balanced game.

In a way that no weapons are overpowered, yes, but that creates a problem where some weapons are very underpowered against more players.

but buffing the class would cause a good sniper to ruin a server

Don't need a buff for that