Balance Changes

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by tf2.com, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Crowbar

    aa Crowbar

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    ...No, this isn't?
     
  2. Muddy

    aa Muddy Muddy

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    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. Lain

    aa Lain heath ledger with some dreads

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    Why though? That doesn't make these one-off long ranged headshots happen any less, it just makes them occur on accident more. I think you'll find the amount of extreme long-ranged shots hit and almost hit is brought to a deadning middle-ground where a lot more "random" shots will hit.
    Also, if you're trying to reduce player frustrating with being killed across the map by a Spy, making the headshot damage drop-off after a distance would be a much better solution. There is still skill in these types of shots, and they should still be able to be skillfully made.

    Good change. Brings more nuance to a great weapon. You may have to keep in mind though, the reason that the YER works is because of how unused it is, so many players don't know the tells.


    ...I think you just fixed highlander... congratulations my friend.
     
  4. Nicky

    aa Nicky Lets try something new!

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    Not sure if someone has said this already, I dont have the time to read through the paragraphs that people have posted, but I feel like the Ambassador should have a strong damage fall off element, instead of an RNG bullet spread. This will make it skill based, but also eliminate the annoying "getting headshot from miles away by a spy."
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  5. Muddy

    aa Muddy Muddy

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    Ambassador was sorta dumb to begin with tbh.

    "Let's give the Sniper a shield that negates insta-kills from Spies."
    "Good idea!"
    "Also let's give the Spy a weapon that can insta-kill Snipers even if they're wearing the anti-insta-kill shield."
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Respectfully Disagree Respectfully Disagree x 1
  6. Hyperion

    aa Hyperion L16: Grid Member

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    My few cents:
    • Panic Attack is unique and shouldn't be changed although it doesn't fit into normal purpose of secondary weapon
    • Ambassador can't be fixed. It is based on headshots and spy shouldn't have them. Best way to fix it is removing it and make new revolver (no idea what it would do tho)
    • DR nerf is very reasonable and is a good way to encourage L'Entranger and Big Earner
    • Your Eternal Reward doesn't need change, it is just hard to use but also very powerful. YER+DR would be awful
    • Scout changes are what they are, mostly weird and Crit-A-Cola makes me question devs sanity once again
    • DDS might be actually better now, 50% afterburn immunity would fit better
    • Vita-Saw sounds interesting but probably will still be banned in competitive. Saving 60% uber sounds too high in pubs too
    • Excellent fix for Crusader's Crossbow
    • Miniguns finally fixed, thank god. I don't really know what to think about health drain, have to see it in action first
    • Rescue Ranger 100% surely needed nerf but tying its healing to metal isn't good
     
  7. Tumbolisu

    aa Tumbolisu  I ⌄ I 

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    Giving the ambassador a damage fall-off kinda goes against the whole crit mechanic: Tripple damage and no damage fall-off

    It's basically what the original Gloves of Running Urgently used to be, only slightly different. It used to drain 6 health per second without any regenerating mechanic. What everybody used to do was constantly jump and only hold the GRU in the very moment you touch the ground. This effectly meant you barely lost any health.
    Also, the damage actually pushed you up a little, giving Heavy the ability to reach interesting places. A common example was that one medkit on Turbine, before they added a prop to make it accessible to everyone.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  8. Da Spud Lord

    aa Da Spud Lord L0: Crappy Member

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    So I decided to write up more detailed feedback, and I'm thinking about sending it to Valve. But first, I want to get your feedback on my feedback to Valve's feedback.

    Panic Attack: The Panic Attack didn't need a complete redesign. I thought the idea was neat, especially on engie, who uses the shotty as his primary instead of as a backup. Perhaps on Soldier and Pyro, who both use the shotty as a backup, it's not as used because the shotty needs to be there as a backup, but on engie, who uses it as his primary, I thought it was very viable as a surprise attack, in-your-face ambush weapon. As such, I believe that the current stats are fine for engineer, but not for other classes. Perhaps the Panic Attack could be replaced with something else on classes that use it as a secondary.
    Ambassador: Although I can't say I dislike this change, I think a much better solution would be to simply have long-range damage falloff (and replace the crits with increased damage, cuz the crits will override the damage falloff). Although the idea on headshots on any class other than sniper is probably a bad idea to begin with, so it probably needs a redesign (along with the Diamondback), or a penalty that actually gives the weapon a real downside.
    Dead Ringer: I've been waiting for this change for a while. I like this change.
    Your Eternal Reward: I'm on the fence here. On one hand, this is kinda diluting what made the Your Eternal Reward interesting, but at the same time, it makes it slightly more viable. I absolutely suck at spy, so I don't think I have the experience to confidently say if the allowing disguising at the cost of cloak mechanic is okay. The only change I do suggest (if they do implement this) is that they make it so that ammo doesn't recharge cloak for about 8-10 seconds after manually disguising, so that players can't disguise and immediately pick up an ammo pack to refill their cloak and negate the downside.
    Sandman: I have no problems with this, except for the decreased recharge time. You can already recharge the ball by picking it up, decreasing the recharge time will just make the ball even more spammable.
    Bonk! Atomic Punch: Who? Nobody ever said that Bonk needed a nerf- if anything, it's underused- if you're gonna nerf it like this, at least add an upside to counter the nerf.
    Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol: I like it. Makes it a good sidegrade.
    Crit-a-Cola: I guess this is better than the original design, but I don't think it's a good enough nerf. Perhaps the Crit-a-Cola should make the scout slower?
    Atomizer: I think this is heading in the right direction, but mini-crits while airborne? So, a market gardener for Scout? Not necessarily overpowered or broken, but just... weird. I guess the effed up melee hitreg is enough of a penalty to counter this...
    Flying Guillotine: I think making it deal extra damage against Sandmanned opponents is still a fine mechanic, but perhaps minicrits instead of full crits? The Cleaver Combo only felt unfair because you were stunned, removing the stun is enough of a nerf.
    B.A.S.E. Jumper: Quite the contrary, B.A.S.E. Jumper sollies are kinda easy to fight. Heavy, engineer, sniper, or another soldier with a good airshot aim and/or a Direct Hit will happily take down a parachuting soldier. Keep it as it is, it's perfectly fine.
    Mantreads: Finally, these shoes might actually be worth wearing outside of Hightower. I like this change.
    Darwin's Danger Shield: Uh... Sure? I mean, why the Sniper needs a weapon that makes him better in close-range encounters with Pyros is beyond me, but it's a helluva lot less broken than it was previously.
    Razorback: The recharging shield is something that's been needed for a while, but the overheal penalty? I mean, I understand their reasoning, but if a Sniper wants to be pocketed, couldn't he just unequip the Razorback? The overheal penalty doesn't see effective at what it's trying to deliver.
    Vita-Saw: So, it's basically the Ubersaw, but every hit gets you more uber in your next life... Yeah, while I agree the Vita-Saw is broken, I don't think making it a wannabe Ubersaw is the right direction to go in.
    Crusader's Crossbow: Sure...? That's... all I really have to say...
    All Miniguns: I didn't even know this was a thing. But I guess it makes sense.
    Gloves of Running Urgently and Eviction Notice: Okay, who let the stoner write a blog post? The fact that the speed boost is only available while the weapons are drawn are a good enough reason to not pull these out during battle; if you don't have your minigun out, you're not shooting enemies, and therefore the enemies are shooting you because you're taking minicrits... It's not that the GRU (and the EN, to a lesser extent) are overpowered, it's that all the other Heavy melees don't give a valuable enough upside to those Heavies who wanna focus on our minigun.
    Fists of Steel: Sure... I mean, this makes sense, although some kind of upside would be needed to counter this. Perhaps remove the holstering penalty?
    Rescue Ranger: Yeah. I agree with this change.
     
  9. zahndah

    aa zahndah professional letter

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    The overheal penalty is for (more often in highlander) the medic overhealing the sniper above 150, and so the sniper can tank a headshot from the enemy sniper AND a backstab from a spy. which makes it even stronger than the DDS in that gamemode which is already really strong.
     
  10. Izotope

    aa Izotope Never releases maps

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    Wasn't the original Ambassador design minicrits on headshot?
    I feel like it would be balanced enough if Crits become Minicrits at a certain distance.

    Another idea I had, but I dislike this more:
    Cooldown increased by 0.2 seconds after a successful headshot.
     
  11. Tumbolisu

    aa Tumbolisu  I ⌄ I 

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    Hitscan classes are a hardcounter to any airborn targets. The BASE Jumper affects this only slightly.
    However, projectile classes rely on predicting the enemey's movement. Being airborn is the most predictable movement possible, thus airshots are easy to learn if you spend some time with it.
    Now image you were able to alter your air-movement drastically by pressing a single button without limitations. And this is why the BASE Jumper is a problem: Being able to have the advantages of being airborn without the disadvantages of being an easy target.
    People, including you, always say "haha just use direct hit easy kill" but you obviously never fought somebody who knows what the BASE Jumper is capable of. At first I got airshot by everything but after a while I learned when to toggle it and now whenevery somebody tries to airshot me, they empty their entire clip before finally switching to a hitscan weapon.

    TL;DR BASE Jumper is way too good. Nerf is needed.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Mikroscopic

    aa Mikroscopic

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    Then just use hitscan weapons against them?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    I can attest that from a distance, BASE Jumper users are tricky to even snipe on the first try, let alone take down with weapons that are weaker and less accurate. Dunno why.
     
  14. saph

    aa saph seventeen shades of various blues

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    I've probably overthought a lot of below, but I tried to make thoughts as concise as possible. Feel free to agree or disagree, it's just my thoughts and theorycrafting. Either way, it was nice to have communication from the development team and a way to spark discussion.

    First off, I'd like to say that I agree with most of (if not all) of the development team's analysis of each weapon. The goals are definitely reasonable, but I believe a few of the ways around it might be a bit questionable. The focus on risk-reward is something I think would make the game more interesting. There are some great ideas replaced, and I believe that a lot of these could lead to an almost entirely open whitelist. Some of this is from a competitive view, some from a casual view.

    Panic Attack
    I do like the current design and concept, but I do wish it was somehow immediately usable as switching between that and a normal shotgun is awkward at times. It possesses high burst potential but doesn't fit within the 'standard' weapons often seen. The proposed idea of upping the number of pellets to 15 while reducing the damage slightly increases the damage, but that's assuming you hit the target all of them. The decreased accuracy of continuously shooting makes sense, and the fixed-shot pattern makes the weapon more reliable.

    Ambassador
    I totally agree that a spy shouldn't be able to hit headshots over a long range, but wouldn't decreasing the accuracy make it seem even more random? I'd like to see a damage falloff, but the headshots still seem like a priority for increased damage. There could possibly be mini-crits for headshots or less of a slope on the falloff pattern, but accuracy isn't (in my opinion) the way to fix the Ambassador.

    Dead Ringer
    The goal focuses on the fact that sometimes, spies never seem to die with the Dead Ringer. However, it might be a bit too harsh of a nerf as removing the ability to regain the cloak meter would go against other watches. (The Panic Attack was proposed to be more in-line with other shotguns by immediately being available for the player to use. The Dead Ringer is shifting away from its counterparts.) Possibly seeing a greatly reduced refill for the cloak meter (from ammo pack and/or dispensers) would be nice. I dislike the speed boost on feigning death as it adds to the unpredictability of spies, but the Dead Ringer won't feel as cheap if it's repeatedly used to avoid death as often.

    Your Eternal Reward
    Not being able to disguise initially makes it hard to use, so the ability to do so (without being able to go invisible) makes this more viable for infiltrating the enemy team or approaching sentries. The cloak drain rate might be a bit harsh, but overall the weapon is more reasonable.

    Sandman
    Being disarmed doesn't fit in with an often fast-paced game and often, the ball's trajectory does seem random, especially when the player is hit over a long range. The proposed slow effect does fit in with the Natascha. The regeneration time and decreased flight time (for maximum slow effect) might need some testing for further balancing. The damage increase makes almost no difference for me.

    Bonk! Atomic Punch
    Currently, the Bonk! doesn't really provide a punishment besides the fact that it takes the place of a pistol. The damage needed to achieve the slow might be a bit low (depending on the number of players in the game). Two rockets from a soldier and now the scout moves slower than a heavy. I agree that the weapon needs more of a downside, but in some ways, it might be too much. I feel like the Bonk! would be made more balanced after this, but I'd still favor a pistol in most scenarios.

    Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol
    Currently, the PBPP makes a low-health class even weaker. Tracking at a different speed (from the normal pistol due to the fire rate), but it might make it harder to keep up with the enemy's movements still. Overall, I think this makes the weapon more useful for scouts, but would primarily become a flanking/roaming weapon.

    Crit-a-Cola
    Removing the speed bonus might be the most important thing for me as it can fix the timing of rollouts and overall area that can be covered in a period of time. The Marked-For-Death is still the downside for the weapon. A speed debuff might be alright, but that might make it too similar to the proposed Bonk!.

    The Atomizer
    The unpredictability (as the Atomizer wasn't required to be seen) made it too easy for the scout. In most scenarios, large amounts of damage could be avoided for a small penalty of self-inflicted damage. Making the bat visible while triple-jumping is what was needed, and the weapon deploy penalty helps to make the user more vulnerable, meaning that the Atomizer would most likely be used for escaping from the enemies or moving to a position.

    The Flying Guillotine
    Once again, the randomness is removed with the crits and mini-crits. Randomness shouldn't be rewarded, and rewarding accuracy makes it available more often.

    B.A.S.E. Jumper (also available for Demoman)
    I believe this is one of the more important changes as someone could repeatedly drop (by deploying, dropping, and redeploying). Hovering in the air now makes the jumper more vulnerable to the opposition and/or fall damage. The air control doesn't mean as much to me, but it does restrict mobility for the in-flight player. I think this leads to more consistency for movements.

    The Mantreads
    The Gunboats are definitely used more often because the stomping doesn't assist the player that much. By adding airblasts to the push-force reduction would help stop pyros from breaking up ubers or completely countering an incoming push. The air control might be a bit too quickly, and it could lead to some neat jumps. The damage reduction for rocket jumping on Gunboats is useful, but there's the Liberty Launcher.

    Darwin's Danger Shield
    Gosh, getting a headshot, but not the kill while being headshot afterwards is one of the most frustrating things. Both players shouldn't need an item in order to be equal when fighting one another. The proposed idea helps to counter long-range pyros, making the choice of item usage more important.

    Razorback
    Snipers are often overhealed, meaning that incoming damage won't kill them, but they shouldn't also be immune to a spy backstab at the same time. As medic, if my team is wiped, I may move back to the sniper and wait for respawns if possible as it provides some protection and map control. The shield regenerating might encourage snipers to play up more. I think an important thing to make sure of is that the ubercharge rate (as the sniper would remain constantly under 142.5% health) doesn't remain at its full 2.5% (instead of the ubercharge rate of 1.25% when over 142.5% health) due to the overheal being removed.

    Vitasaw
    A player should not keep their full ubercharge on-death as it means that there is almost no punishment when dropping. My question: what is the chance that a player will have over 60% ubercharge AND obtain four melee hits (to get the organs) in one life. The Vitasaw (even with the proposed organs) would not give ubercharge like the Ubersaw, but helps to keep it after living. (The proposed changes were kinda confusing when I first read them, but I understand them now. And if you get four melee hits in a single life as medic, you're probably overextending or your team got wiped, but you deserve an award.)

    Crusader's Crossbow
    As a user of the Crossbow, I personally think arrow-building is kinda dumb and that the healing is too strong. Using corner-peeking (as described in the development team's post) is just stupid. The proposed idea is a bit confusing (and combat must clearly be defined in the game's code - what about rollouts and building uber?), but it could work. As of now, I like it.

    All Miniguns
    Finally! I hate that spinning up just negates the spin-up time and doesn't affect accuracy. I don't have to waste bullets anymore to keep the ramp-up.

    Gloves of Running Urgently and Eviction Notice
    Really, I'm not sure how I feel about either of these. By removing the player's maximum health instead of health, it fixes the issue of a medic healing back the lost health. If overhealed, does the overheal health continuously? (It should.) Is there a limit? (Can you suicide with these items?) What is the regeneration rate after the items aren't active? The damage penatlies and vulnerabilities being removed should make them more useful, but also helps with the risk-reward balance of the weapons. The two not being exactly the same (mostly with the acclerated health decreasing) might be confusing.

    Fists of Steel
    Both the overheal reduction and healing rate penalties should help to stop heavies from hugging payload carts with a medic. Being a tank shouldn't be assisted and rewarded by being with a medic, especially when used mainly for objectives.

    Rescue Ranger
    Being able to save buildings is one thing, but repairing them for almost free (essentially free as many hug dispensers while using the Rescue Ranger), is a bit much. The metal serves as a way to limit the engineer, but I don't think the Resuce Ranger should be bound with that. In some ways, I don't really care about this because you're not taking damage with your sentry. Spamming down the sentry means that the engineer's focus has to be repairing it. In some ways, it seems like it's taking the engineer out of the fight, especially after saving a build with the Marked-For-Death, making it too risky to redeploy the sentry.

    Well, that's my two cents. (More like fifty, but oh well.) Sorry for the mess of thoughts, I tried to keep it a bit clearer and not a massive wall of text. Demoman wasn't really mentioned, and there's a few items that I'd like to see adjusted a bit. I'm just hoping that the unmentioned pyro (and its mechanics) work well. Some of my thoughts still aren't too clear, but I might as well try to contribute what I can to the conversation. I'm looking forward to most of these changes, and really, it makes the future of TF2 look a lot better.
     
  15. Zed

    aa Zed Certified Most Crunk™

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    I feel like the people complaining about the BASE Jumper and GRU changes should take a look at WHY these weapons are banned in competitive leagues.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  16. Infomaniac

    Infomaniac L6: Sharp Member

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    Rest in peace, Lime/Pink Scouts
     
  17. Hyperion

    aa Hyperion L16: Grid Member

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    I don't think Ambassador truely crits on headshot because crits do 3x the damage and amba would do maximum of 60dmg * 0.85 * 3 = 153dmg (in fact amba crits are 2x). Normal minicrits on headshot sounds pretty solid if the damage penalty was removed. With penalty from 23dmg to 69dmg and without from 27dmg to 81dmg
     
  18. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    Crits use base damage for their calculation. No close range damage ramp-up. So that's 40 for revolvers. An Ambassador headshot is 40 * 0.85 * 3

    Similarly, shotgun crits do a max of 180 damage (6 per pellet * 3) even though close range shots regularly deal 90
     
  19. nitewalker

    nitewalker L2: Junior Member

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    something to keep in mind is the fact that weapon balance comes very close to not mattering at all in pubs, as evidenced by the continued success of the game in the face of the obscenely overpowered weapons that have existed in the past and now (old loch n' load, old dead ringer, the quick fix at certain points, crit a cola 2 updates ago, this list could be 30 items long and not be exhaustive). people who are concerned about their personal favorite weapons getting nerfed can be rightfully bothered, but people who are somehow concerned about the balance of pubs in relation to competitive should not be worried at all, because weapon balance in pubs has never mattered and pubs generally have increased in quality as the weapons have become better balanced for competitive.

    I don't agree with every change, but surprisingly i agree with most of these changes. i think it's indicative of a much better balance mindset for valve to attempt to balance the game around the competitive modes and let pubs settle based on that.
     
  20. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Anyone notice that they've basically back tracked on a number of the item mechanics. Nobody ever used bonk because of the "crash" like effects that happened after. Sure you could maybe get past that sentry if an enemy player isn't blocking your way (a big if on some maps, particularly CTF), but you'd always get run down right after because of your temporary speed nerf after-the-fact.

    Then there's the Deadringer of which, IIRC, its original mechanic was that you couldn't pick up ammo boxes to replenish it. But the cooldown was so massive people found the original more practical for actually playing spy game play.