The Future of Compensation for TF2 Mappers: A Community / Valve Discussion

[YM]

So the question really should be... what community update are we -- TF2maps -- going to put together for 2015?

Everything I've thought about has been map first, everything else later. Everything I've seen people try so far has been items/theme first, map later.

From talking to Valve, they also say map first, theme/items/frills later. This is also evidenced by Halloween stuff. The maps exist and are fun on their own, then the halloween content is added. The specific example they used was Special Delivery. That came about as a generic gamemode, then they did all the poopy joe, banana and australium stuff at the end of development.

If we are to do an update we should do the same.

1. Get 1-3 (4 as -absolute- tops) grayboxed and absolutely fantastic in terms of fun.
2. Decide on theming, backstory and any frills before moving on to the art pass stage.
3. During the art pass, any new props are made for the maps, modelers are reached out to for hats and weapons and possibly a comic or SFM short is made.

 

[LeSwordfish]

Lets do moonbase update.

 

[fauks]

My mapping skills are limited, but I think, with my web and graphics skills, I can help with creating buzz and collecting feedback. I've been waiting for a few alpha maps that aren't abandoned at beta, or rushed to RC without proper revisions.

As an example, http://overtime.tf/cp_surge/

Disclaimer, I'm mainly interested in maps that suit competitive.

I'm not sure 3-4 moonbase maps is viable. It's a grey landscape with sterile white interiors, that's going to get boring pretty quick.

So YM, LeSwordfish, FrozenR... count me in please!

EDIT:
I also think we should go ahead with the assumption that we get ZERO involvement from Valve. The organisers at the various leagues and plugin makers are kind of already accepting that fact.
With a co-ordinated and constant campaign you should get traction.

 

[Crash]

This page you made is pretty cool too:
http://overtime.tf/cp_glassworks/

 

[Grizzly Berry]

Areas ripe for exploitation:

• Halloween - Make a quality halloween map with something new and finish it by early-mid september
• Robot Destruction - It's a new mode, it needs fleshing out with more maps
• Moonbase - They're obviously going to have some official moonbase update. If you can make a moonbase map before then or you+few others have a few maps shortly after you could hit a second wave of moonbase maps
• Mannpower - Early days, but again like rd, it's going to get a proper update at some point and will want more maps fleshing out the mode.

What about Mann vs Machine? We haven't had any new maps for that since Two Cities which was November 2013. I'd love to see an MvM map included in this community update. Just wish there could be a Mann Up mode for it.

 

[fubarFX]

as I have previously said, I do not care about monetization. but there are a few things about the state of tf2 that I feel are important to adress.

a lot of people are saying valve should be adding more maps. well I hate to be that guy, but I don't think adding maps is a good thing for tf2 at this point in time. if anything, valve needs to remove maps.

tf2 has fully transitioned into a free to play game. the reason why free to play is able to strive and foster large player bases is because of the low commitment on the player's side. The game is just available and you have nothing to do other than downloading the game to get a feel for the experience. you only have to download the game, just one download. the problem is that tf2 is already pretty big (14 gb the last time I checked). 14 gb is pretty big for a free to play game and represents somewhat of a big commitment for new players. It will act as a barrier to entry for some players and that's something that cannot be ignored. this is even more of a problem when a lot of the maps included may never get played. as much as we like our maps, they are a deadweight in many cases. especially with some of the maps that have short lived relevancy (event maps).

tldr: what I wanted to express is, more maps = more incentive but also bigger download = more commitment. which might not be the direction a free to play game wants to take.

in my opinion, what tf2 really needs is to trim down the fat on the map side of things. retire some maps (I hate to be the asshole that has to say this) and move to a rotation based format where the rotation is updated every now and then with a new selection of maps. Am I asking for a map workshop? no, a map workshop won't achieve much of anything. Tf2 needs an entirely new content delivery system (that wasn't built in 2007) where map downloads are optional to run the client.

just throwing money at the mapping community is a pretty dumb move and I'm sure glad valve is not doing it.

seeing things like the beta maps gives me hope that valve has not given up all hopes for tf2 but be assured that there's a rocky road ahead of us. all we need is someone at valve with enough balls to clean things up and then we'll be able to move forward


but then again, that's just my unpopular/narrow minded opinion... as with most things I ever post

addendum:
yes, I'm looking at you quickplay. Is quickplay absolutely terrible for custom maps? yes... could it be great for custom maps? well yeah! I'm suggesting that valve should make the quickplay option even more restrictive and streamlined but to also be more inclusive of community content. but does that benefit players? well, restriction is bad, but I can see it becoming a necessary evil to encourage players to not use quickplay and become more autonomous and adventurous in their map selection. more power to the player! whether or not players use quickplay, it becomes a win-win for community built maps.

 

[YM]

What about Mann vs Machine? We haven't had any new maps for that since Two Cities which was November 2013. I'd love to see an MvM map included in this community update. Just wish there could be a Mann Up mode for it.

True, it's not very well developed as far as community stuff goes, and it seems remarkable easy to monetise (% of tickets used).
I'm actually pretty amazed how many maps valve have made for it themselves.

I doubt any mvm maps will be bought until there's enough for a full on community tour. ie 3-4 maps.

 

[Zed]

you only have to download the game, just one download. the problem is that tf2 is already pretty big (14 gb the last time I checked). 14 gb is pretty big for a free to play game and represents somewhat of a big commitment for new players.

Last time I downloaded the game, which was May, quite a while after Steam Pipe, the game was about 6 gb, not 14, if I do recall.

 

[fubarFX]

Last time I downloaded the game, which was May, quite a while after Steam Pipe, the game was about 6 gb, not 14, if I do recall.

you must have had shared content from other valve games, just checked and it's actually 15.5gb

 

[Zed]

you must have had shared content from other valve games, just checked and it's actually 15.5gb

Hm.

 

[RaVaGe]

snip

You know, if they really want to remove the fat on the game, they should start by the cosmetics; not by the maps, it's like, "o lol our gam is to hayvy, remov the most important thing befor, liek tat we cant even plai animor on it".

Maps are important, in fact this is the most important thing in a game, removing them is ok, as long as they put some new, but the thing is, nobody here except a few, are skilled enough to make a shippable map, how many good maps have you seen here at tf2maps since 2 years ? I don't have seen a lot tbh, so why removing the maps if we don't have any new good maps to add ?

 

[fubarFX]

You know, if they really want to remove the fat on the game, they should start by the cosmetics; not by the maps, it's like, "o lol our gam is to hayvy, remov the most important thing befor, liek tat we cant even plai animor on it".

sure, but weapons + hats only represent ~1gb of the game while maps are at 3.5 gb of the total (and that's bsps alone, not counting models and textures).

but yes, maps are important, I'll never say the opposite. but remember that removing them from the main game client doesn't mean removing them from the tf2 experience as you can simply delay their download to be on demand, effectively removing a deadweight on the game and encouraging a more dynamic approach to how maps are handled.

 

[RaVaGe]

sure, but weapons + hats only represent ~1gb of the game while maps are at 3.5 gb of the total (and that's bsps alone, not counting models and textures).

but yes, maps are important, I'll never say the opposite. but remember that removing them from the main game client doesn't mean removing them from the tf2 experience as you can simply delay their download to be on demand, effectively removing a deadweight on the game and encouraging a more dynamic approach to how maps are handled.

Yep I agree with that, but you know they are already too lazy to create a workshop for the maps on tf2, so I guess that a dynamic map system is completly out of the question.

 

[hutty]

i would be against having a map rotation system ...

cause that just kills it for those with slower internet ...

yes 15 gigs is too big ... but its 15 gigs once ... not 5 gigs every month

 

[henke37]

I'd like to note that it is 15 uncompressed GB. The download could be reduced with just about any compression method.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Yep I agree with that, but you know they are already too lazy to create a workshop for the maps on tf2, so I guess that a dynamic map system is completly out of the question.

Laziness =/= not wanting to do it. They are not lazy, their priorities just lay elsewhere.

 

[InstantMuffin]

[...]yes 15 gigs is too big ... but its 15 gigs once ... not 5 gigs every month

Not going to lie, I'm more than happy to finally have 64mbit down. I still envy South Koreans though.

 

[UKCS-Alias]

i would be against having a map rotation system ...

cause that just kills it for those with slower internet ...

yes 15 gigs is too big ... but its 15 gigs once ... not 5 gigs every month

Lately many games feature a similar system:
The game loads the primary content to be able to run the game. In tf2 this could be the engine and models of the weapons, with that even some low res textures of all the items and maps.
Textures aswel take alot of space but there is no true need to have 512-512 textures to begin with, a 64x64 version can often still give a general idea. But that also depends on the render method since 2 diffirent texture qualities might give some unfair balance issues since a player might be easier to spot on the 64x64. But then again, you can still prioritize certain textures to allways be fully loaded.
But most important, this same trick can also be applied to the lightmaps! And this is the major part on the map filesize and could reduce the 3gb of maps to just 1gb.

For comp it might be required to enforce clients to have the full sized textures, but for pub i dont realy see the issue (and if its a cvar they can still decide it themselve).

The other feature is that the game even if its playable keeps downloading the content, where it keeps certain priorities that improve loading times. For example it would start with maps.
Not only that, but it downloads as you play at just a reduced speed (and as the server often has set the next map from the start - not allways - it can realy help at download times).

A main issue though is that it requires quite a large change in the engine and for an old game as tf2 its just not worth it. Its only worth it for new games and if it can be ported back to tf2 it will help there aswel.

 

[henke37]

It would indeed be a great idea to let the client preload data for the next map while playing the current one.

Too bad that there is no standardized way to manage a "next map" on source.

 

[Idolon]

i would be against having a map rotation system ...

cause that just kills it for those with slower internet ...

yes 15 gigs is too big ... but its 15 gigs once ... not 5 gigs every month

5 GB every month would be at least 50 maps every update. Also keep in mind that weekly updates are pretty much the norm for a lot of other f2p games (League, looking at you). Cycling in 3 maps every once in a while would be manageable by any internet speed that isn't dial-up.