The Future of Compensation for TF2 Mappers: A Community / Valve Discussion

InstantMuffin

L2: Junior Member
May 26, 2014
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[...]It all starts with a competitive matchmaking system, similar in some respects to the one implemented for Counter-Strike: Global Offensive.[...]

You mention mutliple times that you want to have a mode where matchmaking comes in that is like CSGO. No one wants that.

You cannot:
-Mute people
-Kick people (you need all other players to F1 this, also if you participate in "too many" votes you will be tempbanned)
-Leave a game that is insufferable, tempban
-If the steam servers have issues and VAC wont allow you to play the game, you get a tempban for this

This will force you into a situation where you have to stay in a game and be forced to play it, while others make it completely insufferable. Playing without a full team of friends is a gamble. Here's what usually happens otherwise:

-If someone is upset with the game, he cant leave
-He will at first asked to be kicked which you cant because you risk a tempban even for positive participation (voting f1)
-So now he will make the game completely insufferable to anyone else that cannot leave. He will start chat spamming, then tking, then voice spamming, giving away your positions, throw grenades at you, and so on. At this point you can't do anything and are forced to hold out the entirety of the game.

I know this isn't what you meant specifically. What I am saying is that one should be careful what they wish for.

My idea of compensation:

-Leave the item system as it is
-Maybe add some sort of reward program that involves playtimes of people on maps
-Closer contact with Valve employees for all branches (mapping, comp, and mods)
-Valve should compensate maintenance costs for sites like tf2maps, alliedmods, etc. and offer tech support towards those sites in some regards (AM has been under attack a few month ago for example).
-Give credit where deserved. Accomplishing one's achievements/their portfolio and therefore recommending them to future employers is something that does not cost anything but is incredibly valuable to the contributors.

Regarding the financial stuff for mappers:
For me there's two ways to put it. Do you want compensation, or do you want profit? Compensation would be money for both the quality of the product and the time/manpower spend on it, suiting whatever the salaries are for the positions that are being filled.
Personally, I'm strictly for compensation.

Also, this is a delicate topic to some extend. Some groups that currently get less or nothing will (with more or less justification) think that this is somewhat of a luxury problem of mappers. That however does not mean that compensation is wrong. It just means that the problem is bigger than mapping-scene-related and that a more broad/low-level/generic solution would be the best way to solve both, the problems of individual scenes/groups and the whole community all-together.

On a different note, I'd like to compare the current situation to modding/mapping/whatever-scenes of other games/branches/companies. I don't have any data on that, so I tend to say that by comparison the way it is in Valve/TF2-world is kind of the highest standard by far, since I assume there isn't anything comparable yet. I think this is just something that started to be obvious for the workshop which is kind of unique.
 
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Sep 7, 2012
638
500
You mention mutliple times that you want to have a mode where matchmaking comes in that is like CSGO. No one wants that.

You cannot:
-Mute people
-Kick people (you need all other players to F1 this, also if you participate in "too many" votes you will be tempbanned)
-Leave a game that is insufferable, tempban
-If the steam servers have issues and VAC wont allow you to play the game, you get a tempban for this

This will force you into a situation where you have to stay in a game and be forced to play it, while others make it completely insufferable. Playing without a full team of friends is a gamble. Here's what usually happens otherwise:

-If someone is upset with the game, he cant leave
-He will at first asked to be kicked which you cant because you risk a tempban even for positive participation (voting f1)
-So now he will make the game completely insufferable to anyone else that cannot leave. He will start chat spamming, then tking, then voice spamming, giving away your positions, throw grenades at you, and so on. At this point you can't do anything and are forced to hold out the entirety of the game.

I know this isn't what you meant specifically. What I am saying is that one should be careful what they wish for.

The only way to work around people leaving would be to end the match immediately and ban the person who left. I play both CSGO and TF2 and I understand the shortcomings of the system. Bots wouldn't work at all (heck, they barely work in cs:go) so there wouldn't really be any other option.
 
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InstantMuffin

L2: Junior Member
May 26, 2014
64
48
The only way to work around people leaving would be to end the match immediately and ban the person who left. I play both CSGO and TF2 and I understand the shortcomings of the system.

I actually thought of the following:

-Allow muting people
-Detect chat-spam and people throwing flashes to troll their team
-Allow a 3:2-vote to pass (maybe)
-The starting penalties should be smaller, but grow very quickly after 2 offenses
-Record kick votes against people and temp ban those if it comes up excessively

EDIT:
This is OT actually. If you like, we can bounce the volley back and forth via PM. If you're interested.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
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Sep 5, 2010
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-Maybe add some sort of reward program that involves playtimes of people on maps
What about Idlers?

-Valve should compensate maintenance costs for sites like tf2maps, alliedmods, etc. and offer tech support towards those sites in some regards (AM has been under attack a few month ago for example).

Valve already allows some verified communities to gain a % of money from model sales, if the modeler allows it. I don't think Valve, however, should go out of their way to compensate server costs for these communities out of their own pocket. That is the communities problem, not Valves.

-Give credit where deserved. Accomplishing one's achievements/their portfolio and therefore recommending them to future employers is something that does not cost anything but is incredibly valuable to the contributors.
They might not necessarily financially cost anything, but when someone recommends someone, it's based on the recommenders belief on if that person is worthy of their recognition. This comes from more than just seeing their work, but also any sort of relationship they have formed.

Also, this is a delicate topic to some extend. Some groups that currently get less or nothing will (with more or less justification) think that this is somewhat of a luxury problem of mappers. That however does not mean that compensation is wrong. It just means that the problem is bigger than mapping-scene-related and that a more broad/low-level/generic solution would be the best way to solve both, the problems of individual scenes/groups and the whole community all-together.
Many other groups have their own ways to provide money for themselves. Competitive communities can support themselves with sponsorships and prize donation pools (like a compendium like item. We see this happening in DotA2). Plugin developers can do commissions far quicker than modelers or mappers. Commission/free-lance level design work is not even worth it some times for designer because of the time it takes to complete a project, it's not enough to live off of in most cases.

I would like to remind people, this thread is talking about compensation for MAPPERS. I'm perfectly fine with conversation about other communities getting compensation for their work, but this is NOT the thread to discuss it in as it can create confusion. If someone would like to discuss compensation methods for other communities, I welcome people to open up their own thread in the Off-Topic subforum, or in their respective communities (UGC, ETF2L, AM, etc). Thank you.
 

InstantMuffin

L2: Junior Member
May 26, 2014
64
48
What about Idlers?[...]

For this to work one would have to sign up for some kind of compensation program and register the maps. Trade/Idle dont count of course, but regardless of the system, there will always be special cases. May it be someone who's afk. You could actually go ahead and compare the "playload" of maps in the program with official, valve-made maps as a baseline and go from there. People will be afk there, too.


[...]Valve already allows some verified communities to gain a % of money from model sales, if the modeler allows it.[...]

As I was proposing a general solution, that's not contradicting. It just says it is justified to some extend as it is already in place to some extend.

[...]I don't think Valve, however, should go out of their way to compensate server costs for these communities out of their own pocket. That is the communities problem, not Valves.[...]

Those costs are absolute peanuts compared to what Valve pays for updates.
I would like that to be done in a from as a token of respect.
Also, there's a mutual dependency between Valve and the communities, obviously.

[...]They might not necessarily financially cost anything, but when someone recommends someone, it's based on the recommenders belief on if that person is worthy of their recognition. This comes from more than just seeing their work, but also any sort of relationship they have formed.[...]

I use stuff from others, so I credit them. Basics of social contract. It is not an oath or seal of quality. Obviously this is different from a usual (personal) recommendation. Employers know that of course and will decide what to make out of it. Again, it is something I think people deserve to be put out there. It is something they just deserve and is worth to note. As always, you have to judge for yourself.


[...]Many other groups have their own ways to provide money for themselves. Competitive communities can support themselves with sponsorships and prize donation pools (like a compendium like item. We see this happening in DotA2).[...]

This is not about providing money as a debt, it is about providing support when necessary. DotA is quite exceptional as you know, and collecting donations is not as simple as said.

[...]Plugin developers can do commissions far quicker than modelers or mappers.[...]

That depends entirely on the work one specifically does. In either fields commissions can be quick or really big and extensive projects. Also the actual sourcemod devs are tasked with something that is beyond evil.

[...]Commission/free-lance level design work is not even worth it some times for designer because of the time it takes to complete a project, it's not enough to live off of in most cases.[...]

I can say the same for plugins.

[...]As I would like to remind people, this thread is talking about compensation for MAPPERS. I'm perfectly fine with conversation about other communities getting compensation for their work, but this is NOT the thread to discuss it in as it can create confusion. If someone would like to discuss compensation methods for other communities, I welcome people to open up their own thread in the Off-Topic subforum, or in their respective communities (UGC, ETF2L, AM, etc). Thanks.

I would like to remind you that I actually said why a general solution is in order in my opinion. Because mappers would profit from a bigger establishment/a general solution more than from individual smaller movements.
I am not talking about one individual group here. If you don't agree with that, deal with it. It is not OT since it is about how to help mappers the most. By establishing a solid connection which changes how Valve interacts with other people. You want something big and solid. I think it this would help mappers more and furthermore other people as well, of course. But it is obviously relevant to maximize compensation for mappers since Im talking about a big picture here which solidifies a connection.
 
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Immahatman

L1: Registered
Aug 31, 2014
1
0
Maybe find a way for community maps to be released in Dedicated servers for others to play, allowing people to test it, and hopefully, spread its influence
 

xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
531

xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
531
Not directly, no. But CS:GO heavily relies on the workshop and it would be a big first step for TF2 mappers. If nothing else we could work on getting stuff curated while Valve works on whatever magic solution they decide to implement.
 

Harribo

aa
Nov 1, 2009
871
851
imo CS:GO doesn't rely heavily on the map workshop at all. Skins is where the money is generated. CSGO map makers are just lucky the matchmaking, which is what a high % of players only play, is so heavily linked with the operation maps. Even with an implementation of the same systems into TF2 map makers wouldn't see the same revenue gained I'd imagine, just because the main pub play isn't so linked to the competitive scene as CSGOs is. Also from being a part of the TF2 item making community long before the workshop til present I can tell you first hand, the workshop sure has made the community little by little a more bitter, calculated place over recent years.
 
Apr 14, 2013
663
343
Corey Peters took me out for lunch, with the goal of picking my mind about how best to compensate us, the custom TF2 level design community.
  • They want way more high-quality community maps to be included in updates for TF2.
  • They want to compensate custom level designers more, to help bolster the community as it has in the custom weapon and item communities.
  • They want the general TF2 community to be the ones who support the level designers, like they do with the custom weapon and item guys.
Hey guys,
You will have noticed that the map is not part of the update page. This is because it is not officially part of the shipped update. On Novemeber 13th, YM and I found out that the map was cut from the update. The reason given was that Valve felt it was 'too confusing and challenging for new players.' What that exactly means, we have no idea.

:O
 

RaVaGe

aa
Jun 23, 2010
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They should consider to put some alpha maps from the community in the 'Beta testing', I'm pretty sure it could be a really good move from both parts, the mapper have a lot of informations, and maybe a lot of feedback, while Valve does nothing but get some good maps from the community, and everyone is happy.

Of course those maps have to be really serious and the mappers have to know what they are doing.

That's the best compensation imo, your map is played, Valve see if the public like it or not, and then they can buy it if everyone like it.

Imo you're all talking too much money there, the best compensation for a mapper is to see their map played and enjoyed, money is a good plus, but it should never be the first incentive when you make a map.
 
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Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
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Sep 5, 2010
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Imo you're all talking too much money there, the best compensation for a mapper is to see their map played and enjoyed, money is a good plus, but it should never be the first incentive when you make a map.

The easiest way for Valve to latch onto an idea, especially when it involves their servers, is to have an idea where Valve can make money off of it. If they don't make money off of it, it'll be very hard for them to take the idea. Talking about how mapper can get money is one way of creating a way for Valve to make money.
 

RaVaGe

aa
Jun 23, 2010
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1,210
The easiest way for Valve to latch onto an idea, especially when it involves their servers, is to have an idea where Valve can make money off of it. If they don't make money off of it, it'll be very hard for them to take the idea. Talking about how mapper can get money is one way of creating a way for Valve to make money.

Well you know, it's not always about money, except if Valve is the new Ubisoft or Activision, new maps should stay free especially in a f2p game, the only thing wich could work would be that crate idea, but it should defo stay something not intrusive at all, that's it, maps can't make money, except if the players want to purchase them to play them. A pay2win is not the solution, being intrusive with a lot of tricks isn't either.

Anyway, it's a lot of useless discussion for an old game where you will see max 3 new community maps added on the game before it dies.