TF2Maps.net Major Mapping Contest #11: Mercs vs. Aliens - Sponsored by Ronin

[UKCS-Alias]

Regarding MvM: If the players win, the mothership MUST be destroyed. If the BOTS win, the mothership does NOT have to be destroyed. The reasoning for this is that the mission doesn't actually end when the bots, it merely restarts at the same wave (compared to normal maps which completely restart after the winning condition is met). No winning condition is met for Red in that sense, thus, no need for the mothership to be destroyed. (Should note, it does make a lot of sense for the bots to be attacking whatever the players have to destroy the mothership). This will be the official ruling on MvM.

That being said, if you are able to narratively have that make sense, I will highly encourage you to do that.

Note that this requirement gives a VERY big restriction on the last wave since the only ways to do this would be with a tank or lots of filter work.

The tank has an on destroy which you can use as trigger if the tank spawns when everything is dead
The bots can be detected with a trigger and filter which must cover the whole map and basicly behaves inefficient. You normaly wouldnt tag the main bots. It gives a huge room of error.

Not to mention it breaking the whole idea of what MvM currently is about: its about defending. Otherwise you should be in the blue team. And there is no MvM map capable of doing that without a mod.

And as a last question, how would you bring focus to that ship? If you put it at a logical place it would be at the bot spawn. A place you often wont see at certain parts of the map since you get pushed back (if not, your wave is too easy as last wave or you play on a too easy mission).
So if you win the whole cinematic event can simply be missed. Not to mention it not making sense to randomly blow up (although, the rambo movies have similar events).

To me defending the mothership is much better out of MvM logic and also easier to make.

EDIT:
For that matter i do suggest an alternative. Allow that mothershop to attack the red base for mvm to destroy something there. This at least gives the feeling of being attacked by aliens.

 

[TheBestUsername]

Aliens? What? Why aliens? I just... don't understand.

...and don't worry about whether or not it 'fits for TF2.'

 

[TMP]

Note that this requirement gives a VERY big restriction on the last wave since the only ways to do this would be with a tank or lots of filter work.

For those reading, DoneOutput seems to fire only when you win a round, so you could use that to trigger the final round win for defeating the mothership. So it'd be fairly easy to do.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Aliens? What? Why aliens? I just... don't understand.

See follow up clarification.

 

[TheBestUsername]

I read your clarification prior to posting that. I guess my question is "Why are we making maps for TF2 with aliens in them?" That just seems very odd to me. I guess if you aren't worried about standard conventions and just want to make something fun, doing something unique like that is totally fine (although I would probably classify this type of thing as a "non-standard" map of sorts). I, however, am one of those people who prefer to make a "conventional" map that adheres to the established rules of the game, and therefore I would be very reluctant to make a map with this kind of stuff in it.

 

[Woozlez]

Note that this requirement gives a VERY big restriction on the last wave since the only ways to do this would be with a tank or lots of filter work.

The tank has an on destroy which you can use as trigger if the tank spawns when everything is dead
The bots can be detected with a trigger and filter which must cover the whole map and basicly behaves inefficient. You normaly wouldnt tag the main bots. It gives a huge room of error.

Not to mention it breaking the whole idea of what MvM currently is about: its about defending. Otherwise you should be in the blue team. And there is no MvM map capable of doing that without a mod.

And as a last question, how would you bring focus to that ship? If you put it at a logical place it would be at the bot spawn. A place you often wont see at certain parts of the map since you get pushed back (if not, your wave is too easy as last wave or you play on a too easy mission).
So if you win the whole cinematic event can simply be missed. Not to mention it not making sense to randomly blow up (although, the rambo movies have similar events).

To me defending the mothership is much better out of MvM logic and also easier to make.

EDIT:
For that matter i do suggest an alternative. Allow that mothershop to attack the red base for mvm to destroy something there. This at least gives the feeling of being attacked by aliens.

With MVM, I would expect mvm_area51 or something where you DEFEND a facility holding an alien (Area 451 hat on the pyro) on a medical table. This means a few more military-themed models such as military tanks and such. The bot tanks would be replaced with motherships. There, that solves the defense problem, plus you can have the mvm level in the badlands, like most of them are.

This should very much fit within the game, and get people hyped for the upcoming moonbase update after that.

Also, Alias, if you'd like to collab on such a level, I'd be glad to.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

So, I'm on of those people who don't necessarily like to hold onto established conventions (Surprise!). I've done work that followed standard conventions and it's a little dull; doing the same type of thing over and over again to me, is dull. I'm not saying it's bad, but I am saying that personally: I think it's dull.

I host these contests to promote innovation, creativity and to push barrier of level design standards farther and farther. Thats why I've hosted the 72hr contest EVERY YEAR for the past few years: it's a contest to push the limits farther and farther. The 72hr contest is where CSF got developed, new ideas for gameplay elements are tested and tried, we even got a VSH game-mode that doesn't require a plugin. Sometimes, they don't work, but you lost only 3 days. Thats a dinky price for the innovation or limits that you've been pushing.

The major contests are no different. Each and every contest I've hosted is designed to push you guys to try new things and think in ways you might not have before. While I do design the ability for you to 'play it safe' with the conventional map standards, the maps that try new things and push what the standards means are the ones that stand out the most.

tl;dr: Take the risks, don't play it safe, try new things. Think outside of the box.

 

[Turbo Lover]

So when am I allowed to innovate with medieval mode?

 

[Fruity Snacks]

So when am I allowed to innovate with medieval mode?

During the 72hr contests, like always.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

tl;dr: Take the risks, don't play it safe, try new things. Think outside of the box.

For the sake of belaboring the argument: This isn't so much thinking outside the box, as it is taking everyone out of the box they know and putting them into a strange new box.

 

[Pocket]

So, just so I'm clear about this:

• This has nothing to do with the upcoming moonbase thing
• Or Valve
• It just happens to also have to do with outer-space stuff and also have a theme that's not finished yet
• And some mysterious third party is also involved somehow
• The mothership DOES have to be destroyed at the end of the map as long as one of the two teams wins, including defenders winning in an A/D or Payload map

Is that all correct?

The 72hr contest is where CSF got developed, new ideas for gameplay elements are tested and tried, we even got a VSH game-mode that doesn't require a plugin.

We did?

 

[Grizzly Berry]

@stevethepocket: Check out Egan's map from the last 72hr contest.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

So, just so I'm clear about this:

• This has nothing to do with the upcoming moonbase thing
• Or Valve
• It just happens to also have to do with outer-space stuff and also have a theme that's not finished yet
• And some mysterious third party is also involved somehow
• The mothership DOES have to be destroyed at the end of the map as long as one of the two teams wins, including defenders winning in an A/D or Payload map

Is that all correct?


We did?

No relation to moonbase.
Not currently, wouldn't mind if they took a look, however.
Theme is being developed along side the contest, with input and contributes from the community.
No mysterious Third Party.
Correct.

And yes to VSH

 

[wareya]

Oh no! I have to use a theme that's not complete yet and integrate some forced winstate into my detailing, the innovative horror!

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Not developed yet*

 

[Idolon]

Oh no! I have to use a theme that's not complete yet and integrate some forced winstate into my detailing, the innovative horror!

attention passengers please fasten your seatbelts we are encountering some sarcasm

 

[wareya]

Not developed yet*

I was counting the placeholder models as a start; but if you want to make it sound worse to me...

 

[Prestige]

you cant really say how creative this contest is and then not allow custom gamemodes

i hope we can have more deceptively complex contests like this. having the mothership always being destroyed seems kind of lame but having to explain it can lead to some creative ideas like ufo on a rope.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

UFO on a rope, is that like Soap on Rope but for those really tough, ground in galactic stains?

 

[Ravidge]

So, I'm on of those people who don't necessarily like to hold onto established conventions (Surprise!). I've done work that followed standard conventions and it's a little dull; doing the same type of thing over and over again to me, is dull. I'm not saying it's bad, but I am saying that personally: I think it's dull.

I host these contests to promote innovation, creativity and to push barrier of level design standards farther and farther. Thats why I've hosted the 72hr contest EVERY YEAR for the past few years: it's a contest to push the limits farther and farther. The 72hr contest is where CSF got developed, new ideas for gameplay elements are tested and tried, we even got a VSH game-mode that doesn't require a plugin. Sometimes, they don't work, but you lost only 3 days. Thats a dinky price for the innovation or limits that you've been pushing.

The major contests are no different. Each and every contest I've hosted is designed to push you guys to try new things and think in ways you might not have before. While I do design the ability for you to 'play it safe' with the conventional map standards, the maps that try new things and push what the standards means are the ones that stand out the most.

tl;dr: Take the risks, don't play it safe, try new things. Think outside of the box.

There is so much here that I'd argue against if I still cared enough. But.. I don't really feel like going too in depth. Instead I'm just gonna present my thoughts, and not directly fight yours.
I disagree with most of it, if you want the short version.

My view on major competitions is that it's a event where you take all the knowledge and experience you've built up and put it into a project that WILL be the best thing you've made so far, it SHOULD be a representation of your current skill as a (amateur) level designer. And then you compare what you're capable of to the other competitors, and figure out where you need to improve still.
Innovation and creativity can come after you've successfully grasped the standard game.

also this all is just thoughts about contests in general, not necessarily the current ones.

72h is a good excuse to try a gamemode idea for experienced mappers. But I believe that the creative spark should have happened long before the contest started. It should have been created in a box map months/weeks ago, and looked at hard for possible problems. If you think it's actually viable then great. Save it for the 72h contest.

But again, this is only something you should be doing after you've got the standard gamemodes down and know how to design for them, because if you can't do that, with all the hundreds of examples to look and learn from, how are you going to do anything decent with your original gamemode idea, in 3 days?

You can learn a lot from just doing a normal map in 72hours. Learning to be creative or innovative is not part of it though. You're better off sticking to what you know if you actually want to learn anything other than "can I shit out a map that is a ctfpl hybrid in 72h?" to which the answer is yes, you can, 72h is a lot of time.

But can you create a solid layout that will be good enough to keep after the contest ends, something that won't get abandoned after 1 month because of underlying issues with the design? Now THAT's hard. It's a real test to see how good you actually are at identifying layout issues by yourself using quick iterations and short tests and a well established gamemode that everyone (and you) knows how it should play.
(This is also a reason I think using 72h contests as springboards for major competitions is a bad idea, because chances are you won't get it right)

Pushing innovative limits is not something that the competition should be designed to do for all the entrants, it's something a individual mapper should decide to do if they feel it's within their best interest to break some new ground and use their level design knowledge on new problems.

You say "think outside of the box" but I'm confident that most people on this site still needs to stay inside and study the box before caring about what's outside of it.

Unless of course your only goal is to stand out and have a laugh.


Post got longer than I expected, I just don't know how to stop typing.