Buy Elder Scrolls Online: Greymoor for PC at Green Man Gaming

TF2Maps.net Major Mapping Contest #11: Mercs vs. Aliens - Sponsored by Ronin

Discussion in 'Contests' started by Fr0Z3nR, Jun 26, 2014.

  1. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

    Messages:
    1,264
    Positive Ratings:
    795
    Note that this requirement gives a VERY big restriction on the last wave since the only ways to do this would be with a tank or lots of filter work.

    The tank has an on destroy which you can use as trigger if the tank spawns when everything is dead
    The bots can be detected with a trigger and filter which must cover the whole map and basicly behaves inefficient. You normaly wouldnt tag the main bots. It gives a huge room of error.

    Not to mention it breaking the whole idea of what MvM currently is about: its about defending. Otherwise you should be in the blue team. And there is no MvM map capable of doing that without a mod.

    And as a last question, how would you bring focus to that ship? If you put it at a logical place it would be at the bot spawn. A place you often wont see at certain parts of the map since you get pushed back (if not, your wave is too easy as last wave or you play on a too easy mission).
    So if you win the whole cinematic event can simply be missed. Not to mention it not making sense to randomly blow up (although, the rambo movies have similar events).

    To me defending the mothership is much better out of MvM logic and also easier to make.

    EDIT:
    For that matter i do suggest an alternative. Allow that mothershop to attack the red base for mvm to destroy something there. This at least gives the feeling of being attacked by aliens.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  2. TheBestUsername

    TheBestUsername L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    151
    Positive Ratings:
    49
    Aliens? What? Why aliens? I just... don't understand.

    :confused:
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  3. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

    Messages:
    948
    Positive Ratings:
    554
    For those reading, DoneOutput seems to fire only when you win a round, so you could use that to trigger the final round win for defeating the mothership. So it'd be fairly easy to do.
     
  4. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,392
    Positive Ratings:
    5,471
    See follow up clarification.
     
  5. TheBestUsername

    TheBestUsername L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    151
    Positive Ratings:
    49
    I read your clarification prior to posting that. I guess my question is "Why are we making maps for TF2 with aliens in them?" That just seems very odd to me. I guess if you aren't worried about standard conventions and just want to make something fun, doing something unique like that is totally fine (although I would probably classify this type of thing as a "non-standard" map of sorts). I, however, am one of those people who prefer to make a "conventional" map that adheres to the established rules of the game, and therefore I would be very reluctant to make a map with this kind of stuff in it.
     
  6. Woozlez

    Woozlez L3: Member

    Messages:
    129
    Positive Ratings:
    284
    With MVM, I would expect mvm_area51 or something where you DEFEND a facility holding an alien (Area 451 hat on the pyro) on a medical table. This means a few more military-themed models such as military tanks and such. The bot tanks would be replaced with motherships. There, that solves the defense problem, plus you can have the mvm level in the badlands, like most of them are.

    This should very much fit within the game, and get people hyped for the upcoming moonbase update after that.

    Also, Alias, if you'd like to collab on such a level, I'd be glad to.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  7. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,392
    Positive Ratings:
    5,471
    So, I'm on of those people who don't necessarily like to hold onto established conventions (Surprise!). I've done work that followed standard conventions and it's a little dull; doing the same type of thing over and over again to me, is dull. I'm not saying it's bad, but I am saying that personally: I think it's dull.

    I host these contests to promote innovation, creativity and to push barrier of level design standards farther and farther. Thats why I've hosted the 72hr contest EVERY YEAR for the past few years: it's a contest to push the limits farther and farther. The 72hr contest is where CSF got developed, new ideas for gameplay elements are tested and tried, we even got a VSH game-mode that doesn't require a plugin. Sometimes, they don't work, but you lost only 3 days. Thats a dinky price for the innovation or limits that you've been pushing.

    The major contests are no different. Each and every contest I've hosted is designed to push you guys to try new things and think in ways you might not have before. While I do design the ability for you to 'play it safe' with the conventional map standards, the maps that try new things and push what the standards means are the ones that stand out the most.

    tl;dr: Take the risks, don't play it safe, try new things. Think outside of the box.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. Turbo Lover

    aa Turbo Lover Fight me under Glasgow Central Station

    Messages:
    333
    Positive Ratings:
    341
    So when am I allowed to innovate with medieval mode?
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
  9. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,392
    Positive Ratings:
    5,471
    During the 72hr contests, like always.
     
  10. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

    Messages:
    4,769
    Positive Ratings:
    5,552
    For the sake of belaboring the argument: This isn't so much thinking outside the box, as it is taking everyone out of the box they know and putting them into a strange new box.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 5
  11. Pocket

    aa Pocket Ya like Jazz?

    Messages:
    4,531
    Positive Ratings:
    2,408
    So, just so I'm clear about this:
    • This has nothing to do with the upcoming moonbase thing
    • Or Valve
    • It just happens to also have to do with outer-space stuff and also have a theme that's not finished yet
    • And some mysterious third party is also involved somehow
    • The mothership DOES have to be destroyed at the end of the map as long as one of the two teams wins, including defenders winning in an A/D or Payload map
    Is that all correct?

    We did?
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  12. Grizzly Berry

    aa Grizzly Berry

    Messages:
    437
    Positive Ratings:
    387
    @stevethepocket: Check out Egan's map from the last 72hr contest.
     
  13. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,392
    Positive Ratings:
    5,471
    No relation to moonbase.
    Not currently, wouldn't mind if they took a look, however.
    Theme is being developed along side the contest, with input and contributes from the community.
    No mysterious Third Party.
    Correct.

    And yes to VSH
     
  14. wareya

    wareya L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    493
    Positive Ratings:
    191
    Oh no! I have to use a theme that's not complete yet and integrate some forced winstate into my detailing, the innovative horror!
     
  15. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,392
    Positive Ratings:
    5,471
    Not developed yet*
     
  16. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

    Messages:
    1,813
    Positive Ratings:
    5,452
    attention passengers please fasten your seatbelts we are encountering some sarcasm
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 8
  17. wareya

    wareya L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    493
    Positive Ratings:
    191
    I was counting the placeholder models as a start; but if you want to make it sound worse to me...
     
  18. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

    Messages:
    1,780
    Positive Ratings:
    1,662
    you cant really say how creative this contest is and then not allow custom gamemodes :(

    i hope we can have more deceptively complex contests like this. having the mothership always being destroyed seems kind of lame but having to explain it can lead to some creative ideas like ufo on a rope.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
  19. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,392
    Positive Ratings:
    5,471
    UFO on a rope, is that like Soap on Rope but for those really tough, ground in galactic stains?
     
  20. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

    Messages:
    1,544
    Positive Ratings:
    2,521

    There is so much here that I'd argue against if I still cared enough. But.. I don't really feel like going too in depth. Instead I'm just gonna present my thoughts, and not directly fight yours.
    I disagree with most of it, if you want the short version.

    My view on major competitions is that it's a event where you take all the knowledge and experience you've built up and put it into a project that WILL be the best thing you've made so far, it SHOULD be a representation of your current skill as a (amateur) level designer. And then you compare what you're capable of to the other competitors, and figure out where you need to improve still.
    Innovation and creativity can come after you've successfully grasped the standard game.

    also this all is just thoughts about contests in general, not necessarily the current ones.

    72h is a good excuse to try a gamemode idea for experienced mappers. But I believe that the creative spark should have happened long before the contest started. It should have been created in a box map months/weeks ago, and looked at hard for possible problems. If you think it's actually viable then great. Save it for the 72h contest.

    But again, this is only something you should be doing after you've got the standard gamemodes down and know how to design for them, because if you can't do that, with all the hundreds of examples to look and learn from, how are you going to do anything decent with your original gamemode idea, in 3 days?

    You can learn a lot from just doing a normal map in 72hours. Learning to be creative or innovative is not part of it though. You're better off sticking to what you know if you actually want to learn anything other than "can I shit out a map that is a ctfpl hybrid in 72h?" to which the answer is yes, you can, 72h is a lot of time.

    But can you create a solid layout that will be good enough to keep after the contest ends, something that won't get abandoned after 1 month because of underlying issues with the design? Now THAT's hard. It's a real test to see how good you actually are at identifying layout issues by yourself using quick iterations and short tests and a well established gamemode that everyone (and you) knows how it should play.
    (This is also a reason I think using 72h contests as springboards for major competitions is a bad idea, because chances are you won't get it right)

    Pushing innovative limits is not something that the competition should be designed to do for all the entrants, it's something a individual mapper should decide to do if they feel it's within their best interest to break some new ground and use their level design knowledge on new problems.

    You say "think outside of the box" but I'm confident that most people on this site still needs to stay inside and study the box before caring about what's outside of it.

    Unless of course your only goal is to stand out and have a laugh.


    Post got longer than I expected, I just don't know how to stop typing.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 9
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
Buy Elder Scrolls Online: Greymoor for PC at Green Man Gaming