CP Caribou A9b

[Neketo]

Caribou - Centralized Pyramid 3CP

It's like Gravel Pit, but C unlocks when A or B is captured.

Designed back in May-ish around the viable attack strategies on Steel and Gravel Pit.

EArkham's Snowycoast Pack
Fruity Snacks' End of The Line Pack
The Swamp Pack
The Frontline Pack

 

[Neketo]

Hotfix for spawn visualizers

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[Yrr]

Oh yo have you seen my map Alloy? I'm glad to see people trying this mode again

 

[Neketo]

Wasn't quite comfortable getting A1 tested, so here we are with an all new B point!

• New spire on B
• Changed overlays showing which point you're on (not directing you toward another point) to bright red, formerly white.
• Added health and ammo to the ditch on A
• Added soundscapes
• Removed a prop jump on B
• Fixed missing overlays
• Added a shutter to the routes leading to B
• Changed the catwalk over A to a grate, instead of being solid
• Fixed clipping inside Blu's spawn
• Removed some coal piles from out-of-bounds
• Started adding door frames where doors blended into the walls
• Added missing door trigger stencils on C
• Swapped the vault doors near A for Asd417's improved version

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[Idolon]

I haven't played this yet, but I watched some other folks play it and I'm skeptical of the point designs.

Specifically, red is able to get positional advantages on each point without actually having to hold defensive players there in the first place. On B, for example, they get a high ground with cover that overlooks the point simply for walking to the point. This means that, in theory, blue needs to have players hold red's high ground while other players cap the point.

Giving red advantages "for free" can be a bad idea in a/d maps since you generally want to ensure that blue team maintains control of an objective once they capture it. However, I think a gpit split-objective style of design helps mitigate that issue and it will probably be less of a concern for you.

The bigger potential issue I see is that you're already asking teams to split their attention between two objectives, in addition to having them split their attention per point. I think this will hurt uncoordinated pub play on these points, and I would suggest looking at how the points on Gravelpit are fairly disconnected from the red connectors.

I should also emphasize this is all "in theory." It might play fine! I'm basing all of this on prior knowledge and watching a Discord stream of a 6v6 match. However, if you find that players struggle to coordinate on this map, beyond what you might expect from a map with split objectives, I have a hunch that this is part of the problem.

 

[Neketo]

Ended up not quite getting a full test last time (we eventually got down to 4v4) but it was actually pretty nice to see how the map handles in such a relatively low-bullshit environment.

The most apparent issue was that Blu didn't have a straightforward time getting to C once they'd capped A or B. Red still had a pretty easy time harassing them through B, and the routes through A weren't clearly marked. They didn't have a hard time upon making it to C, however.

• Added a lower route that opens once B is capped, connecting the A side of the main A/B flank to B, which Red has no way of holding while holding the upper part of B
• Added a ramp in place of Blu's prop climb
• Added a shutter to the shelf over B that closes once it's captured
  
• Moved the prop climb to the batts
• Added a dynamic sign to the batts, to direct Blu through to the lobby
• Reduced Blu's respawn wave time once A and B are captured to 6 seconds
• Added a one-way door which opens once A is captured, to help cement Blu's hold over the A corner lobby once A is captured
• Added dynamic signs to A once A is captured
• Changed the medium ammo pack above B to a small one
• Added a medium ammo pack to Red's balcony on C

Miscellaneous fixes

• Removed the ledge outside of Red's upper spawn exit
• Made Red's upper spawn exit a one-way dropdown
• Fixed a gap in Red's func_respawnroom behind Gate 3's visualizer
• Fixed some blown out lights on C
• Added 14bit's sticky stopper to the C bridges, several doors, and the elevator in Red's spawn
• Fixed a z-fighting displacement outside Blu's leftmost exit to B
• Added missing areaportals
• func_detail'd a bunch of geometry
• Fixed a hole in the wall of the vault door connector beside A
• Fixed a clip brush which clipped through the room behind A
• Disabled dynamic shadows on several props
• Added lights to several dark spots
• Changed the welcome point for both teams to a wide shot of A
  
• Added frost to some of the windows on C cuz its pretty

Hopefully the good vibes from A2 are gonna hold up to a full server?

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[Neketo]

Watching the demo from A3 has been great! It's really cool watching Red respond to Blu. Feedback seems positive too!

In trying to fix Gravel Pit, I created a new issue: Instead of the easier to capture point going ignored, it's focused on too heavily. B ended up being too close to Blu's spawn, so it's super easy to keep up constant pressure on it. It plays the opposite way I expected it to as a result, being the more high-value point between A and B.

Ideally, both are equally valuable, for different reasons. B, if you want to try and scrape out a hectic win with your flank, or with the brute force of your combo through A.

• Moved the point back
• Adjusted the B lobby to accommodate the new connection
• Made the fence taller to block sightlines between Blu spawn and B
• Added a couple rocks to give the yard some flavor and to block sightlines.
• Moved the shield on the point to give defending players more cover from Blu players leaving spawn, as well as to benefit splash

A couple people found Red's spawn was frustrating, and while I don't really understand what they're running into, this is what I've got.

• The one-way door that prevents confused players from using the staircase to the upper spawn now opens once C is unlocked. This should get the message across that you shouldn't want to use it, but it's there if you need it.
• Moved Red's upper spawn points forward. The main shutter isn't quite in view, but it should prevent them from trying to go left.
• Removed the handrail from the upper spawn. Handrails say, "don't jump over me," but you're supposed to jump over it.
• Removed the one-way spawn exit. It didn't seem to have a noticeable impact on how Blu contested C, but the potential for abuse was *definitely there.* I may consider bringing it back for if A is capped before B? It's a window for now, though.
  
• Added a sign just in case you really don't get it.

I designed Caribou with a focus on keeping rotation between A, B, and C as short as possible, but that made a few areas too cramped fighting in.

• Changed the shape of the lower route that opens when B is captured
• Added a vent and a pipe to separate the doorways from each other
• Widened the flank above B
• Widened the A lobby
• Added a cubby which opens once A is captured to give Blu more floor space
• Simplified the stairs up to the A-side C lobby, so there's just one landing instead of two between the two floors

General timing adjustments

• Red has their respawn wave time once A and B have been captured increased from 10 to 20
  
• Red has their respawn wave time once A or B have been captured increased from 3 to 10
• Red has their initial respawn wave time increased from 3 to 6
• Increased the cap time of C from 20 to 30

Miscellaneous changes

• Added the star icon from Steel to C on the hud
• Fixed a hole in the wall next to the shutter separating the upper and lower A/B connector
• Fixed(?) an issue with the bridges which caused stickies to float in the air
• Made Blu's giant door louder (god, i love the medieval gate sound)
• The blu spawn's giant door now opens faster to open in-time with the sound effect
  
• Removed the giant door's func_door sound
• Clipped off the top of the giant door, to prevent Blu players from getting wedged between it and the roof as it raises.
• Added an invisible step up to the window sill on C
• Narrowed some of the door trigger markers because it looks WAY cleaner
• Removed a couple lights from the connector that opens when B is capped
• Added a solid railing to the ledge above the door connecting the B/C connector to block a sightline across the point
• Extended the trigger for the shutter in the A/B connector to be in-line with the stencil
• Fixed *a lot* of unclipped ledges
• Fixed a gap between the orange one-way and the wall which snipers could shoot through
• Removed dynamic shadows from the chalkboards in Red's spawn

Navigational fixes

• Added a sign pointing you to C from the B batts, because the shape of the room doesn't direct you that way

Known issues

• Pyros can't airblast stickies stuck to the bridges. I'd rather have stickies you can't airblast than ones that won't stick at all?

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[Neketo]

A4's test went pretty poorly, because of a significant team imbalance that went unscrambled for like three or four rounds. Contrary to A3's test, almost nobody rotated between A and B, and Blu didn't pressure C sufficiently to pull Red off of A once B had been captured. Red never made an attempt to hold B, but was it due to the changes to the point? They held it fine in A3.

So the mystery is whether it was a map issue or a teams issue. The only solution is more testing, because A3's performance or A4's could have been a fluke. I really have no idea what sweeping changes need to be made. But before gathering more data, there are a few minor issues I need to address.

Still not drawing a lot of conclusions, but a couple super serious things need addressing.

• Removed the health pack from the ditch behind A
• Downgraded the ammo pack in the ditch from a large to a medium ammo pack
• Patched a hole in the barrier on the C batts
• Shrunk the cover on B to give Red more dominance over the lowground

Turns out, it's really easy to trap Red in their last spawn if you capture B first and take a demo to the point. While the door gives Red the strong advantage Blu takes away when A is captured

• Added an upper door which closes when A is captured. It's in nearly the same position as the door from A3, but it's accessible before the elevator moves up.
• Swapped which window to the side room is open to block sights onto the point from spawn, for both Red and Blu's sake. This may have knock-on effects on the way the rest of the point plays for Red engineers.

Navigation changes

• Removed a lot of signs from the A/B flank
• Added a C sign over the stairwell in Red's spawn
• The one-way door to the red spawn stairwell now opens when the round begins, to ensure Red knows where to go
• Added resupply signs above the doors to Red's spawn. Unlike Blu's spawn, it isn't obvious from outside that Blu isn't allowed in.
• Added a one-way sign to the one-way door that opens when A is captured

Miscellaneous

• Fixed a pixel ledge along the cliff above Blu's spawn
• Fixed an issue with Blu's respawn time that applied both respawn wave time changes at once, when both are captured (which meant Blu's 10s respawn wave time never changed, might have affected wrong team?)
  • Blu's respawn wave time should now change to 6 when A or B is captured
  • Red's respawn wave time is now 10 when A or B is captured and 15 with both
• Fixed a ledge outside Red's spawn where the railing didn't line up with the floor
• Removed a spectator camera on A which was a holdover from the original B point in A1
• Fixed an issue with some copy/pasted ABS logic that caused the map goal to improperly display as that from Granary
• Disabled collision on the setup doorframes around the map (including C's bridges)
• Extended the respawn visualizer on Blu's leftmost A spawn exit and added a clip brush above it to prevent Red soldiers from standing on the edge and shooting into Blu's spawn. Why can they do that even when the visualizer entity is flush with the rest of the wall? You tell me.

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[Neketo]

Missed the notification but found a post the other day from Idolon on Caribou's thread. Apparently y'all have been going behind my back and playing sixes on my map. The concern being that Red can hold too passively, and that places too much emphasis on Blu holding their batts rather than the point, and that letting Red hold after the point has been captured.

It isn't a problem that's come up in the imps, (aside from Red being able to hold B after it's captured, but that disappeared in A3) but it's definitely something I'll bear in mind, especially if there's any interest in balance specifically for 6v6 play. It's definitely possible this was why A4 was so red-sided, but that doesn't explain why that completely flipped in A4b.

It's gonna be another "lots of small changes" update, but this time it's gonna add up to something major. No sweeping layout changes, Red has proven capable of defending both points already.

Objective timing changes

• Increased C's capture time from 20s to 40s (I thought it was 30?)
• Reduced the amount of time Blu gets for capping B from 3 mins to 2 mins
• Reduced the initial round time from 6 mins to 4 mins
  • When Blu is steamrolling, they win in 4 minutes. The longest Red has held was 8 minutes, with Blu typically capturing C in 5-6.
  • This means the max round time is 9 minutes, and I'm shooting for Red to have to hold C for about 5, assuming Blu captures A and B.
  • This should also hopefully disincentivize Blu feeding so much onto A and B

Respawn wave/resupply changes: This is to make Blu less passive and give Red a stronger foothold at C

• Reduced Red's respawn wave time once A or B is captured to 6s
• Reduced Red's respawn wave time once A and B are captured from 15s to 8s
• Increased Blu's respawn wave time once A or B is captured from 6s to 8s
• Blu's respawn wave time no longer changes once A and B are captured
• Red's upper spawn exit now closes when A and B are captured, instead of A or B
• Added a longer tunnel for Blu out of their spawn
• Widened the cubby behind Red's C batts so as not to spawn them in such a choke
• Moved Blu's B resupply cabinet to the shelf on the right side of the pit, beside Gate 1

Better pickups for Red

• Moved the health and ammo in the B/C lobby up to the flank above B, for better access by Red
• Removed the medium pack from the batts outside Red's upper spawn exit
• Removed the small health pack from the cubby A/C lobby
• Added a large health pack to the ditch behind A
• Shrunk the area underneath the B batts
• Added a small health pack to Red's batts on B
• Added a small ammo pack to Red's batts on B
• Added a large ammo pack under C to give engineers a reason to jump in the pit
• Changed the medium ammo pack on Red's C balcony to a large ammo pack

Changes to C to make passive Red holds easier

• Increased C's capture time from 20s to 40s
• Added a shutter to the window in the C batts that shuts once A is captured
• Added greater cover on Red's C balcony to protect red sentries from spam from the closer exit from the A/C lobby. This is to solidify the rest of the other side of the point as the go-to anti-sentry position to take. Replaced the Hydro barrier with an upright one which is tall enough to conceal a sentry gun.

Layout changes to A and B

• Expanded Red's cubby above A to meet the far wall
• Added a fence (for red cover and blocking sightlines)
• Added a fence section to the cover outside Red's Gate 1 on B
• Widened the catwalk connecting Red's B batts to B itself
• Added a diagonal piece of cover to the catwalk behind B

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[Neketo]

A5's reception was finally super positive! Red was able to hold A and B

I'm really not satisfied, however. Red was able to be competitive and all the rounds came down to the wire,

Both teams put a much greater emphasis on B, Red consistently sent one engineer to A and basically gave it to Blu for free.

Red would go all-in on A or B, Blu would have little trouble snatching it up for free. Red wouldn't try to contest, and once they'd capped, Blu would band together to take Red's favorite point. Little pressure to C, and they'd

I don't like this dynamic per se, but I didn't get to play it, so it could very well be fun. Everybody who did seemed to enjoy themselves, but what worries me is that games focused so heavily on B. A didn't get as much play because Red doesn't get a free hold spot like on B. The ditch turns it into a DM area that Blu is always going to get the advantage in because of how close their spawn is.

Red's spawn is still bad for pushing out to C

• Added a proper forward spawn room, separate from the elevator, activated when A and B are captured, and Red's upper door is shut
• Added an upper spawn exit with a dropdown (don't worry, it's not a straight hole in the floor)
  • It puts you in the same place as the other door (because frankly I'm out of space on C), but makes up for it by being super dominant over Red's batts
• Added a big window
• Probably gonna be detailed as a turbine hall or something to do with the coal from B?

Control point timing changes

• Capturing A now rewards 2 minutes of round time, instead of 3
• Capturing B now rewards 3 minutes of round time, instead of 2

Red doesn't want to hold A

• Added ammo and health to the catwalks over A
• Downgraded the ammo and health under the stairs
• Buffed the fence beside the A cliff
• A and B have had their time on capture switched
• Lowered the cliff (that used to be the edge of the map) behind A and turned it into a shelf
• Connected the top of the stairs in the A/C lobby to the new cliff via a door which shuts when A is captured

Polished some communication stuff

• Changed the red-only shutter's signs to a nonsolid respawnroomvisualizer
• Changed the orange setup door in the B/C flank to a brush-based gray version (VALVE DID IT ON BARNBLITZ ITS OK)

Miscellaneous fixes

• Removed some out-of-map entities that got stuck in the walls when I moved them without checking for entities
• Fixed the numbering of Red's spawn doors
• Extended the shield on B to block a sightline from Red's batts over B into Blu's spawn
• Clipped an unforgivable ledge in Blu's spawn
• Added a func_movelinear to the elevator in Red's spawn to stop physics objects (but not RAGDOLLS) from falling through. A minor detail, but one that matters to me for some reason.
• Fixed that bright red brush in Red's spawn by remaking it. It should also fix the whole map's weird lighting in the last version? SORSE!
• Streamlined the catwalks on B

A couple people didn't like the Rick May statue, but I made the map in May of last year and I think it's a cute thing to keep around. Don't really see the issue, a couple people have said they like it already, but it's gone and IT'S COMING BACK MAY 1ST

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[Neketo]

• Fixed the wooden sign on A appearing black
• Fixed Red's upper door trigger disabling when A or B are captured, instead of A and B

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[Neketo]

On the whole, I was really satisfied with the way A6 played! A lot of the issues people ran into were the concessions I had to make in previous versions to get it to play well enough to solve other issues.

A6 was successful in making A play *way better,* that height Red got in the ditch made a huge difference. B wasn't really contested much, but that's fine, A5 let us know it *could* be done. Whether A overshadows it remains to be seen.

The main takeaway was that C was kinda red-sided. Namely because while the spawn is better, it still puts Red in the same choke no matter which door they come out of. It's a choke Red has a strong hold over because of their dropdown exit, but it's a choke.

C is too Red-sided

• Reduced Blu's respawn wave time from 10 to 6 when A and B are captured
• Upgraded the small health pack in the cubby in the A/C lobby to a medium health pack
• Downgraded the health pack in the lower A/C lobby
• Raised the batts behind C to block sightlines through the entire flank
• Added a window to the A side flank on C
• Removed the railing from the isolated room on C
• Made the pit in C's B side deeper, widened the ramp, added more cover, and raised the glass shield to block sightlines between the balcony and the top of the doorway.
• Added a pipe (with extensive clipping) to allow the shield to be jumped and spammed over

Control point timing changes

• Decreased C's capture time from 45 to 35 to make C pushes easier and to put greater pressure on Red while only A or B is captured
• Increased the time rewarded for capturing A from 2:00 to 3:00

Miscellaneous

• Removed shadows from the rest of the chalkboards
• Made the dev textures more consistent
• Changed the sign that appears in Red spawn once A and B are captured to a one-way urban gate
• All doors which shut when A or B is captured open when C is captured, to make Blu's victory that much sweeter
• Restored patches under the pickups on Red's B batts
• Fixed a set of fog triggers in Blu's spawn which changed the fog backwards
• Changed the glass shields around the map to a different, more visible glass texture

added VERY MINOR DETAILING I"M SORRY

• Found some really great giant door frame props from Coaltown(?) that fit perfectly two of the doorways in Blu spawn
• Added some wood wall textures to one of Blu's spawn exit
• Turned one of the ramps in Blu's spawn to stairs
• Removed the words from the Wood Electric logo and overused it in Red's base
• Changed some pipes
• Added snow shovels
• Added cables to the catwalk over A

A couple other issues that got brought up were Red's spawn doors opening into the same choke, and Red holding on C from a super concentrated position, so playing Spy is hard.

They're both symptoms of essentially every area around C being taken up by something I can't bring myself to move or get rid of without upsetting the rest of the point. Red's upper spawn exit gives them a huge advantage in the area directly outside their spawn, and the wall above their shared doorway both shelters them from Blu players and makes sure that advantage stays right outside their doors. There was a suggestion to connect Red's spawn to the corner room, but I don't like the idea of having Blu push past Red's spawn to get to their batts.

As for spreading out Red more, again, I'm not concerned, because Red didn't play very aggressive and that's also an issue shared on a lot of other points. Not every point is going to cater to every class, and that's okay. Die mad.

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[Neketo]

Another hotfix update, didn't get *any feedback* last time. Dead imp that got overshadowed by a broken door sound. Silenced the offending door and removed a nearby ambient_generic. We'll see if it happens again, sounds do weird shit during imps.

• Reduced C's cap time from 40s to 30s
  • This is to encourage Blu to pressure C harder while only A or B is captured, by punishing Red 25% harder
  • Every Blu win ends with a kinda drawn out segment at the end where Blu is holding down Red's batts
• Added a laser in place of the custom one I'm gonna make outside the big windows on C
• Fixed a displacement on A that's been bothering me for like all the versions
• Fixed z-fighting on the window on B which shuts when A and B have been captured
• Fixed a long-standing issue with the snow/coal blend using ssbump while all the other snow textures use normal maps. Might go back and make them all use ssbump later, but for now, they're consistent.
• Fixed dev texture alignment around Red's spawn (which is now higher than it was)

Gonna try and make the next version B1? We'll see how the next test goes.

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[Neketo]

Third shot at getting a full-server test! More tiny changes. People new to the map seem to get lost,

• Swapped Gate 3 for the adjacent window (thanks, fault)
• Changed a couple rectangle signs to new, round signs (thanks, cnub66)
• Extended the fade distance on the one-way window on B from 1024 hu to 1536 hu
• Lubed up a ton of little lips in the walls (mostly where doors meet walls) to stop you from getting stuck on walls you aren't looking at, as well as to stop some jittering on a couple slopes you often strafe into.

New players getting lost is a known issue, hopefully going to change if this version plays well and I get to move to Beta?

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[Neketo]

map loads now

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[Neketo]

map loads now

this engine drives me to drink

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[Neketo]

Its the BIG UPDATE

Finally understand where I went wrong with Caribou. The same mistakes from Gravel Pit and Steel. A and B are far apart, so Blu can't push C and Red can't hold A and B. So I made HEAPS a changes

ALL NEW B POINT

• its a spire
• it has height
• not a p anymore
• kinda looks like upward but dont think about it
• Batts are way more focused toward C and A instead of going way behind b

All new A/B/C flanks

• From 8 doorways to like 3 kinda
• Has some different health
• Two floors ;w;
• no bad gray door

Spawn changes

• New exit for blu that opens when A and B are captured
• Its to stop engies from complaining about teles
• New red exit where it used to be (its in both places)
• Red respawns faster when A and B are captured (8-16s)

The rest of the changes

• Fixed (mostly) the door in Red's spawn flying into oblivion at the end of the round
• Fixed a fog trigger in Blu spawn facing the wrong wayy
• Cleaned up the room behind C
• made C's B door nice and big
• most scuffed use of the foundry roof prop eva
  
• 
  
• loads of small shit i forgot ))

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[Neketo]

A8 plays way better, but respawn times hurt both teams playing on the new B

At first, red spwans behind the corner room on C. When A or B is captured, Red moves back closer to whichever point they didn't lose. When A and B are captured, they respawn at the same place as they do now.

New respawn wave times for most of the map

Added a new prop sign pointing Red to the B shortcut

Fixed a clip brush in one of the windows

Added placeholder details to all the dev texture computers (gonna make all my own props just you wait)

and no more elevator

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[Neketo]

Fixed some bad clips over Blu spawn

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