Mappers Vs Machines: The Results

[Fillmore]

since the contest is now over, I can ask the one question I've had since the shortlist came into existence:
The upload thread states as follows: "Remember that we’re looking for beta-quality maps or higher - that means they should be mostly detailed as well as have solid layouts."
How did Relic end up in the shortlist as an a3?

 

[Freyja]

I'm also trying to contact the players that did beat this mission to know the exact conditions the mission was played. I do suspect they gave themselves money, but since I do not have any proof confirming it, we can consider they didn't use cheat.

We beat it multiple times throughout testing without a medic and no spy, on a server where refunds are disabled.
It's a very hard mission. It was tested with some of the best. But it has been cleared multiple times, you just need to go further back in the demo logs. It's meant to be *expert*. Expert to me requires the best possible performance. Maybe it's my fault for testing mainly with a very hardcore team, but it is definitely beatable, I've done so myself.

 

[Viemärirotta]

I recall expert being beatable (having played it myself in a full team), despite hard in the early development of Teien. Don't have a clue how much it has changed since then, but my guess is easier if anything.

 

[Quenquent the babysitter]

We beat it multiple times throughout testing without a medic and no spy, on a server where refunds are disabled.
It's a very hard mission. It was tested with some of the best. But it has been cleared multiple times, you just need to go further back in the demo logs. It's meant to be *expert*. Expert to me requires the best possible performance. Maybe it's my fault for testing mainly with a very hardcore team, but it is definitely beatable, I've done so myself.

Sorry for my scepticism, but I doubt you did finish the mission. I'm looking at the demos from b4 (since, even if you did slight undocumented changes on rc3, most of the changes on Expert were on b4) and I've only found one demo with Expert being beaten on rc1. But I do not have the rc1 version of the map and I can't find a download link here, so I can't watch the demo. Can anyone give a link where this version of the map can be downloaded please ?

Also, I'm speaking about demos on the Potato's server, but maybe you didn't do your testing there ? Do you have a video or demo of one of those play session where you beat the most recent version of the Expert mission ? I don't think you have one, since I don't believe anyone would think about recording their playtesting sessions.

About your definition of Expert : we all have our idea of what should be THE Expert MvM mission. But by the end of the day, our definitions doesn't matter, only the official Expert missions are what is the closest to the "official" Expert difficulty level. And I'm sure everyone can agree that Teien's Expert mission isn't similar in difficulty to these missions. And I've said it in my review : if your mission wasn't tagged Expert, but an other difficulty above that you would have invented, it would have been better.

I recall expert being beatable (having played it myself in a full team), despite hard in the early development of Teien. Don't have a clue how much it has changed since then, but my guess is easier if anything.

I did play the earlier versions of the map, and back then the Expert mission was much, much easier. I do not know exactly at which point the mission got a bit spike of difficulty added tho, and if you played it.

 

[LeSwordfish]

Sorry for my scepticism, but I doubt you did finish the mission. I'm looking at the demos from b4 (since, even if you did slight undocumented changes on rc3, most of the changes on Expert were on b4) and I've only found one demo with Expert being beaten on rc1. But I do not have the rc1 version of the map and I can't find a download link here, so I can't watch the demo. Can anyone give a link where this version of the map can be downloaded please ?

Also, I'm speaking about demos on the Potato's server, but maybe you didn't do your testing there ? Do you have a video or demo of one of those play session where you beat the most recent version of the Expert mission ? I don't think you have one, since I don't believe anyone would think about recording their playtesting sessions.

About your definition of Expert : we all have our idea of what should be THE Expert MvM mission. But by the end of the day, our definitions doesn't matter, only the official Expert missions are what is the closest to the "official" Expert difficulty level. And I'm sure everyone can agree that Teien's Expert mission isn't similar in difficulty to these missions. And I've said it in my review : if your mission wasn't tagged Expert, but an other difficulty above that you would have invented, it would have been better.


I did play the earlier versions of the map, and back then the Expert mission was much, much easier. I do not know exactly at which point the mission got a bit spike of difficulty added tho, and if you played it.

The purpose of this rule was to rule out broken waves, not difficult ones. If you say you're not trying to achieve anything with this complaint, then why openly disbelieve people? Teien didn't even win anything gameplay-related.

 

[Quenquent the babysitter]

The purpose of this rule was to rule out broken waves, not difficult ones. If you say you're not trying to achieve anything with this complaint, then why openly disbelieve people? Teien didn't even win anything gameplay-related.

If you don't only consider not-working mission as broken, then what makes Teien Expert not a broken mission ? If you only consider not-working missions as broken, then why is this rule so vague ? I'm sorry for nitpicking, but "possible to complete" and "not winnable" is really different from "broken". After, I can understand that when making the rules, all the situations cannot be predicted.

I never said I'm not trying to achieve anything, I said I know I cannot make the judges disqualify the map now that the results has been given. What I want to achieve is to make sure that this doesn't happen on the next contest. I did not see the previous mapping contest done here, however I don't think a map that - may have - broke the rules won a prize.

Because yes, Teien didn't win a gameplay-related prize, but what message is sent by giving a prize to a submission that - maybe - did not respected the rules of the contest ?

 

[LeSwordfish]

If you don't only consider not-working mission as broken, then what makes Teien Expert not a broken mission ? If you only consider not-working missions as broken, then why is this rule so vague ?

Specific wording of the rule was down to Hydrogen, I believe. The intent was clear - especially since we've had people come in and clarify that yes, it is winnable.

Because yes, Teien didn't win a gameplay-related prize, but what message is sent by giving a prize to a submission that - maybe - did not respected the rules of the contest ?

"we care about having a good time more than the specific wording of the rules"? When no harm is being done, this is exactly the attitude I want to have.

 

[Viemärirotta]

It's a good thing that Teien's Expert mode is actually challenging. It's exactly what it should be, a challenge. Anyways I highly doubt the difficulty of the popfile would effect judging.

 

[Da Spud Lord]

Quenquent, I feel like you're making mountains out of molehills. The mission is beatable (multiple people have confirmed they beat it), so it's not breaking the rule. And, as SwordFish pointed out, no harm is being done.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

-snip-

Going to be honest here and say what I think a lot of people are thinking. Your argument, while still kind of vague seems to boil down to "my team can't beat it, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar. It's not fair and anyone else who says differ is wrong." In the context of all your responses - thats what I'm hearing. You have been provided multiple sources saying that it is beatable, proving that it's beatable, so surely you must see how absurd your argument is.

 

[Quenquent the babysitter]

Specific wording of the rule was down to Hydrogen, I believe. The intent was clear - especially since we've had people come in and clarify that yes, it is winnable.

Quenquent, I feel like you're making mountains out of molehills. The mission is beatable (multiple people have confirmed they beat it), so it's not breaking the rule. And, as SwordFish pointed out, no harm is being done.

I've read the thread again, and there is only LeSwordFish that says that people beat the mission (without precising if it was done under normal conditions(I am sorry again for my scepticism)) and Freyja. But I did not find a demo on Potato's demo database where the Expert mission was beaten without using the !panic button. As I said, it could have been done in an other server.

I would like to have Hydro's opinion on the subject too. Because I would actually be surprised if he would consider a mission where Medic's shield, canteens and refund are necessary as beatable.

"we care about having a good time more than the specific wording of the rules"? When no harm is being done, this is exactly the attitude I want to have.

I do agree that fun is all that matters by the end of the day. If I really wanted to stretch things as far as possible, I would have said : "But because 2 maps that are not respecting the rules (Affinity and Teien) made it to the shortlist, 2 other maps that respected those rules didn't"

It's a good thing that Teien's Expert mode is actually challenging. It's exactly what it should be, a challenge. Anyways I highly doubt the difficulty of the popfile would effect judging.

Well this is an other subject, because there's a difference between fun challenging and painful challenging. When you look back at the public rating thread, the only persons that rated Teien's population really low are the ones that beat it (my team and the team I've showed you the video of). How enjoyable the mission was do not influence on how beatable is it.

Going to be honest here and say what I think a lot of people are thinking. Your argument, while still kind of vague seems to boil down to "my team can't beat it, and anyone who says otherwise is a liar. It's not fair and anyone else who says differ is wrong." In the context of all your responses - thats what I'm hearing. You have been provided multiple sources saying that it is beatable, proving that it's beatable, so surely you must see how absurd your argument is.

We did beat the mission ! It was only because the last Tank didn't have his sentries on. And as I've said, I did not do it with random people. I wouldn't be surprised if they are at the same level as the players Freyja played with to test the mission.



I'm sure everyone here is starting to get tired of this conversation. But I will shut it and admit I was wrong if you share a demo or a video of a team beating the mission under normal conditions (no cheats, no Medic's shield needed and no canteens spamming needed to get to the final Tank).

 

[LeSwordfish]

I straight-up reject the idea that a shield or canteens are in some way abnormal unfair behaviour for players. Drop the subject, please.

 

[Izotope]

I straight-up reject the idea that a shield or canteens are in some way abnormal unfair behaviour for players. Drop the subject, please.

I agree with this, and I remember somebody saying "it's a bad idea that you have to buy canteens to win this wave" while playtesting mine, even though I didn't design it as a necessity :L

 

[Quenquent the babysitter]

I straight-up reject the idea that a shield or canteens are in some way abnormal unfair behaviour for players. Drop the subject, please.

True that I should have asked what tools can be used to beat the mission. My idea is different from the judges, and I accept it.

I am, again, sorry for all of this, and I want to thank you for keeping all of this civil and polite.

 

[Idolon]

Timecodes for each map are in the video description. Unfortunately there were a few maps (Airdrop, Barren, Dockyard, Fiori) that I didn't play enough to be comfortable giving a critique on, so this video doesn't cover everyone. I do talk about Barren's detailing.

 

[Freyja]

But I did not find a demo on Potato's demo database where the Expert mission was beaten without using the !panic button.

You didn't look very hard.
http://73.233.15.145/Server/SourceTV/mvm_teien_b3.html
http://73.233.15.145/Server/SourceTV/mvm_teien_a9.html

The second one doesn't show up as victory because we didn't do the last (boss) wave since that's more or less just a bonus and inconsequential to the testing. I can't check right now as I'm out of the country but from what I remember those should be the missions you're looking for in your quest for some verification for some reason. I think the a9 one is an earlier (easier) version though. The expert popfile was unchanged except for a few minor tweaks since b3 however.

You seem to be angry that the mission requires cheese tactics to beat, but honestly that's exactly what we tested it with. We used two beggar soldiers, phlog pyro, sometimes medic (no spy though), and to me that's not a problem for an expert mode. I don't think expert mode should be allowed to be "play whatever you wish, you can beat it if you're not bad", I think expert mode should require your team to coordinate and choose an appropriate loadout and team composition to beat it.

I'm sorry if that doesn't meet your expectation of expert, but you're just outright denying that it can be beaten despite multiple people saying they have. I appreciate that you beating it wasn't fun for you, and that's fine, mark my map down for that. And people did, and it didn't win. And that's fine. But it's not against the rules, the contest organisers have said that and you're arguing for no reason other than it wasn't fun for you.

 

[Invalid nick]

before this competition I didnt know anything about mvm, shorty after this competition was announced I became a total mvm freak! thanks!
on a side note; really wanted to contribute to this competition, but time is dear and I wasn't able to, however, after playing the majority of the maps submitted for this event one thing is clear, the correct maps won!

additionally, well done to everyone contributing, it certainly was a pleasure playing your creations!

 

[Dayal]

Timecodes for each map are in the video description. Unfortunately there were a few maps (Airdrop, Barren, Dockyard, Fiori) that I didn't play enough to be comfortable giving a critique on, so this video doesn't cover everyone. I do talk about Barren's detailing.

Hey, I just got a question. In your video you mention that the buildings in Barren are rather monotonous, which I can agree with. But I have a quite a difficult time to make them not monotonous. I tried applying different wood textures, but then it'd look a bit odd. So any suggestions to make the texture of the architecture more interesting, so that it's less dull?

 

[Tumby]

Use rusty metal for some buildings and use white wood for inside. Many maps use rusty metal for red.

 

[Idolon]

Also, while I'm not sure what your process is, make sure you re-texture all the buildings before making a judgment on what looks out of place. If you just texture one building differently, it'll be the odd one out. If you have a preference for one wood texture over another, use the textures you like more on the buildings you'll see more.