Mappers Vs Machines: The Results
- Thread starter LeSwordfish
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I don't agree with it either, but I see where they're coming from. After all the work and amazing entries put in by those making their first brave step into contests like these, it feels a bit dissapointing that 3/4 of the categories controlled by the judges were swept up by one person who we already know is good. I'm sure a lot of people are feeling discouraged by this, especially since there were many entries on par with the ones that won (Spacepost, Dockyard, and Havana come to mind).
The side-awards are something that I tried to introduce in the previous major contest as a way to recognize maps that deserved recognition but didn't place. We didn't restrict it very much because we didn't anticipate this sort of outcome. It's something that we've (staff) been discussing internally and you can probably expect a different system for future contests.
Would you rather: Deal with the logistics of making sure potentially 20+ maps gets equal play treatment, even maps that are 100% in no way going to move out of bottom quarter?
OR
Deal with the logistics of making sure 10 quality maps get equal play treatment?
Staff do this all in their free time, they can't run massive contests with 30+ entries, and manage all the testing to make sure it's fair for everyone and still maintain their normal lives.
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As someone who's ran a very fair amount of contests for this community, I'll be honest and say that I'm really disappointed with some of the responses here. It might sound strange - but these contests, at least all the ones I've either ran or entered, were never meant to be these serious "I'm entering to win this!" type of contests. They were fun events where everyone pushed and supported each other to do their best to whatever level that was, take pride in their work, and most importantly, to learn. If you get cut from the final rounds, maybe thats an indication that you still have more to improve on.. Don't take it as a sign that "you're bad," just that you have room for improvement, and that there are plenty of people in this community you can look to for feedback and help. There's absolutely nothing to be ashamed with that. Everyone, no matter the skill level, can always improve.
@all I won't repeat what has been said, but yeah I agree with what is written above, contest aren't just about winning that's a learning experience for you, I myself think more maps could have won something but that's not really the point, you realize that the grand prize is 100$, just 100$ it's "nothing" you realize the free time you spent working on your map for that contest, you could have spent it in a small job in same time as your real job and earn maybe 1200$ over three months, but you didn't you entered the contest and spent time making an entry.
If you had done the silly l calcul I've done, and were really caring that much about the prizes you wouldn't enter in the first place.
I mean see the bright side the rewards are really worthless, the games are worthless, the 100$ are worthless, the medal is worthless, but the EXPERIENCE you got out of that contest, that's priceless and you'll do better, and this for anything you will do later in mapping, it's not about winning it's about participating, maybe rewards for new contests could be reworked, maybe, but that's not important, you wanna win to be in spot light for what? 1-2 months, and be forgotten after, winning won't give you anything, however entering will give you experience, experience that you wouldn't have got if you didn't entered, you enter a contest for fun and experience not for winning only.
When you think about it, everyone won, you all won experience, but if you act blind and don't learn from your mistakes, and keep complaining, then yeah you can say you won nothing and you are disappointed, but that's your fault not us.
I don't think anyone is calling this a waste of time. It certainly wasn't for me, I had a lot of fun making my map and I'm still incredibly proud of it despite the results of the contest. Everyone should be. The contest was great, I don't think anybody is denying that. Yes, I'm sure all the entrants were a little dissapointed when they didn't win anything, but I don't really think it's fair to judge them for that. I mean, I think anybody would at least go "Ah, dammit", that's just a normal reaction. But I don't think any of them regret entering, or creating something for it. I certainly don't.
I spent more than an hour playing each of the sixteen maps, and I would say about another hour each getting extra feedback and writing the results up, plus, say, three hours collating all the results. That's thirty-five hours over two weeks, which is about the same as a part-time job (which, of course, I don't get paid for). I'm totally willing to do that, it's what I signed up for as a judge! But without the early stage, it would have taken three times as long, and spending all my free time for six weeks of my life playing one mode of one game would, in your words, "suck so bad."
Given that you didn't volunteer to be a judge, it seems a bit cheap to demand that they do triple the work. And given that you didn't enter the contest, it seems a bit cheap to say it was a horrible system. Sure, it's a flawed system, but I promise you it was 100% necessary. I can't imagine why you'd hate it so much...
...except for the fact that the last time we did it, your map failed to get through? In 2012. Good god, man, that's a while to hold a grudge.
You're taking things out of context. I think you did fine job on this contest, i'm not questioning that. I also know that the contest rules have now better wording and ruleset which is more clear to everyone because what happened years ago. I dont hold a grudge, i said that because i dont want that to happen again to anyone else that what i experienced at that time. I moved on from those days long ago.
The fact you haven't entered many contests (if any?) since then is a little telling.
While it's noble that you don't want others to feel your disappointment, as you did many moons ago, it's just not a great reason. Are you going to say that a companies hiring system is bad because you didn't get hired 5 years ago? Are you not going to apply there again because of that? Probably.
This reason you've provided isn't helpful or useful, it's almost selfish. " I didn't get accepted with the system, so I don't want others to feel the disappointment I felt" - whether the fact you were cut was justified or not to you.
Why do you keep dragging this matter over with some apposition to thing that has nothing to do with this? I have nothing more to add to this matter. How i like to spend my time is up to me. If i value more on doing things on my own than take part on something i dont like to do, thats up to me. I did consider taking part and did took part on this MvM contest, but i just didnt had the time so i didnt enter.
Because when you say something sucks, but don't give feedback as to why you think it sucks, (let alone a give good reason) it makes it hard to improve the system. As far as I can tell so far, the reason you think the system sucks is because it worked against you years ago and you don't want to see that happen to other people - that is a personal reason and that doesn't help anyone improve anything.
Quenquent the babysitter
L1: Registered
- May 7, 2017
- 12
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I'm surprised that Teien managed to not get disqualified. I'm not saying that the map is bad, no that's the complete opposite : it did deserve the best looking prize. No, I'm speaking about the mission, the Expert mission to be more precise.
When I played Expert Teien, I though I was going to lose my mind. The only reason we beat it was because the sentries on the last Tank broke. I don't think this mission is beatable under normal circumstances. I only know one other team that actually managed to beat the mission, and I don't know how they did it. @Clickin can you please tell us how you managed to beat this mission ? I'm sure you used Medic shield spamming. And if you did require this to beat the mission, then there's something really, REALLY wrong with it.
https://tf2maps.net/members/clickin.27923/
"But why should we care ?" you mind ask. Well, because a mission that cannot be beaten is breaking the contest rules !
[url=https://tf2maps.net/threads/tf2maps-and-potatos-mvm-servers-present-mappers-vs-machines.32358/]Yes, look at it yourself ![/URL]
Now when I saw the judges gives their feedbacks on the shortlist maps, I did hope they took this into account, or they did beat the mission using a reasonable strategy that we missed out. But no : none of the judges managed to beat the mission ! And don't go "But its Expert" on me : it is NOT Expert ! The judges did admit that part however, but none of them went "Well, isn't it too hard that it cannot actually be beaten so making the submission break the contest rules ?". Sadly, no.
That it wasn't disqualified when the shortlist was made, I understand ! The judges did point out they couldn't test everything fairly so they had to make a shortlist. But you can, well, fix your mistakes ? Also looking at Affinity's broken nav file that is breaking the rules :
[/URL]
When I played Expert Teien, I though I was going to lose my mind. The only reason we beat it was because the sentries on the last Tank broke. I don't think this mission is beatable under normal circumstances. I only know one other team that actually managed to beat the mission, and I don't know how they did it. @Clickin can you please tell us how you managed to beat this mission ? I'm sure you used Medic shield spamming. And if you did require this to beat the mission, then there's something really, REALLY wrong with it.
https://tf2maps.net/members/clickin.27923/
"But why should we care ?" you mind ask. Well, because a mission that cannot be beaten is breaking the contest rules !
[url=https://tf2maps.net/threads/tf2maps-and-potatos-mvm-servers-present-mappers-vs-machines.32358/]Yes, look at it yourself ![/URL]
https://tf2maps.net/threads/tf2maps-and-potatos-mvm-servers-present-mappers-vs-machines.32358/
Now when I saw the judges gives their feedbacks on the shortlist maps, I did hope they took this into account, or they did beat the mission using a reasonable strategy that we missed out. But no : none of the judges managed to beat the mission ! And don't go "But its Expert" on me : it is NOT Expert ! The judges did admit that part however, but none of them went "Well, isn't it too hard that it cannot actually be beaten so making the submission break the contest rules ?". Sadly, no.
That it wasn't disqualified when the shortlist was made, I understand ! The judges did point out they couldn't test everything fairly so they had to make a shortlist. But you can, well, fix your mistakes ? Also looking at Affinity's broken nav file that is breaking the rules :
As you have guessed, I'm salty. And I am sorry for making this post, but I had to make it. I apologize to say this, as I don't want to hurt anyone by saying this, nor I want to make you feel that I'm an assface farting higher than he can, but it will hurt, and you will feel I'm like that : next time you make a contest, make sure the submission respect the rules before giving it a prize.
[/URL]
Anyway, I really loved that contest. I'm so happy to see MvM content, and with quality stuff ! Even if I know Valve won't make an MvM update, I love to see that the community didn't forget it. Thank you all for this contest, I hope we will have an other, because next time, I will have time to spend to give you the most glorious MvM map you will ever see in your entire life !
Congratulations to all the winners ! Congratulations to all the contestants ! And congratulations to the whole TF2maps community !
Teams have beaten the expert mission, and it's appropriately difficult for the target audience (maniacs).
Quenquent the babysitter
L1: Registered
- May 7, 2017
- 12
- 6
I'm sorry for my scepticism, but when I look at the SourceTV's archive of Potato's server, the only time the Expert mission was beaten was when the panic button was used 18 times (and skipped wave 6, which is THE problem of the mission : remove that wave and it's kind of ok). I would actually like to know who managed to beat this mission using reasonable methods.
Also, as the name implies, the supposed target audience are Expert players, not Maniacs. And I am, and I've played and finished this mission with MvM maniacs. We are NOT the target audience.
You're looking for a map to be disqualifed because it's unbeatable, yet provided evidence to show that it was beatable. You wonder how someone could beat it, and yet provide a complete video that shows it's 1) beatable and 2) basically how they do it.*
If your team is maniacal as you claim they are, surely you have more than enough information to figure out how to defeat this wave? They were able to do it without a video, I'm sure your team is strong enough to do it with the extra assistance?
*EDIT: Will admit that there are edits during purchasing phases, my point still stands.
Quenquent the babysitter
L1: Registered
- May 7, 2017
- 12
- 6
I watched the video again, especially wave 6, because you do have a point. And I also pointed out that we beat it too (because of a technical fault of the mission with no sentries on the final Tank). We DO know how to beat this wave, and the video I've linked did exactly what we were thinking about :
- Forced team composition
- Phlog Pyro/Beggar's Soldier needed to take out the Tanks
- Medic needed to block the spam of robots and to allow the Phlog/Beggar's to get close to the final Tank
- Spy needed for the Giant Medics, since nothing else can go close to them without getting destroyed by the spam of robots
- Engineer needed, but you always need an Engie anyway
- That's 4/6 slots forced to a very specific class versus 1/6 on a Valve Expert mission (and any other mission by extension)
- Repeated use of refunds
- Abusive use of canteens
- Buybacks spamming
I'm also trying to contact the players that did beat this mission to know the exact conditions the mission was played. I do suspect they gave themselves money, but since I do not have any proof confirming it, we can consider they didn't use cheat.
I'm not trying to disqualify a map at this point. You gave your winners, and I'm sure you will not change them even if I've proved the submission broke every rules of the contest. This is not because you are bad persons (which you are not), but because you already gave your verdict. I mostly went into this rant to, please, make sure you do not have something like this happen. I loved this MvM contest, but Teien Expert was, for me, the big black spot on something clean.
Can someone clarify how "Best Overall" does not mean it was "Most Fun" and "Best Looking" and "Most Creative" and "Public Choice"
"Best Overall" is the grand prize, so I assumed it means you over-qualify for each of the other smaller categories. Even the "overall" score is an addition of each individual category's score. I get that one map can't win more than one of the smaller categories, but if a map is the Best Overall then it still can win a smaller category? Or am I thinking about this in the wrong way and you have to win one of the smaller categories and then Best Overall is chosen from the 4 winners.
I'm just looking for clarification here because I still don't understand how the numbers add up. Maybe I'm thinking too literally or something.
"Best Overall" is the grand prize, so I assumed it means you over-qualify for each of the other smaller categories. Even the "overall" score is an addition of each individual category's score. I get that one map can't win more than one of the smaller categories, but if a map is the Best Overall then it still can win a smaller category? Or am I thinking about this in the wrong way and you have to win one of the smaller categories and then Best Overall is chosen from the 4 winners.
I'm just looking for clarification here because I still don't understand how the numbers add up. Maybe I'm thinking too literally or something.
Best Overall was the best on average across all voters and categories. Another map might do better in one thing (and so win a prize in it) but worse in everything else, and so have a lower average score.
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