Let's all give a round of applause for everyone who worked on a map for this contest! And let's give it up for our top 10! From highest Y/N ratio to lowest, our finalists are:
The spreadsheet lists all the maps in the order they were submitted. To view them ordered by score, you can switch to the "Scores (Decending)" view, found here:
@Pdan4 will be contacting the finalists to discuss what your finalist map cards will look like soon.
AND NOW, THE FINALS:
Now it's time for the penultimate act. We'll need the help of our seven magical assistants (judges), @14bit, @Sonoma, @Diva Dan, @Erk, @Defcon, @ScarlettValkrie, and @Yacan1! They will be showing up for scheduled Finalist Judging tests during the judging period.
This finale will have you all on the edge of your seats, but don't get too rowdy or turn this into a sports game! We stagehands will be keeping along and making sure people don't get riled up as the results carry on - we are all here to have fun after all - so keep in mind that if things get heated or frenzied, we will implement score censoring until the polls close. Please don't solicit tallies or offer them.So, let's try to keep a lighthearted atmosphere in our hobbyist community and magic amphitheater tonight! And please make sure you've played and are voting on the specific map versions listed in this post.
All scores are out of 10. Decimals are allowed. All maps will be judged based on two main categories as previously stated, Gameplay and Detailing. Gameplay is worth 67% of the final score, and Detailing is worth 33%. All public scores will be averaged and will be worth 60% of the final score. Judge scores will be averaged, and will be worth 40% of the final score.
Gameplay and Detailing each have two subcategories, each worth 50% of their main category: Overall, and Card Usage.
JUDGING CRITERIA: GAMEPLAY:
The Overall Gameplay score is how well the map plays, out of a maximum of 10 points.
Is the map unique?
Is the map balanced?
Is the map fun?
The Gameplay Card Usage score is how well the claimed/valid Gameplay cards are integrated into the map, out of a maximum of 10 points. You may score every card individually and average them into a score of 10 if you wish.
How well are the chosen cards integrated into the map?
Were the chosen cards beneficial or harmful to the gameplay of the map?
(If applicable) Did going for more than the minimum number of cards benefit or harm the gameplay of the map?
DETAILING:
The Overall Detailing score is how good the map looks, out of a maximum of 10 points.
Is the map visually interesting?
Is the detailing complete?
Does the map accomplish the art direction it is going for?
The Detailing Card Usage score is how well the claimed/valid Gameplay cards are integrated into the map, out of a maximum of 10 points. You may score every card individually and average them into a score of 10 if you wish.
How well are the chosen cards integrated into the map?
Were the chosen cards beneficial or harmful to the detailing of the map?
(If applicable) Did going for more than the minimum number of cards benefit or harm the detailing of the map?
*If there is a tie at the end of this vote, we will introduce tiebreaker voting (the card printing company only allows enough for 10; it is a physical limitation out of our control in our price range and pack quantity, unfortunately).
To vote, please enter your scores into a table in this thread like the one shown below. You must vote on all 10 maps for your ballot to be valid. Calculated scores will be automatically done by our final spreadsheet. Please use the linked spreadsheet above to see what your scores calculate to, as tables on the forum can't do math! Feedback/notes are optional, but strongly encouraged! Spoilers for notes for each map are included in the copy-pasteable template below.
MAP
Overall Gameplay (score out of 10)
Gameplay Card Usage (score out of 10)
Overall Detailing (score out of 10)
Detailing Card Usage (score out of 10)
pl_desolation_b3a_bugfix
cp_thalassophobia_b5i_fix_2
ctf_chouhen_b5a
cp_siege_b2
koth_splinter_b4
pl_conclave_b6b
cp_shanksgiving_b6
cp_underway_b2
cp_lamworth_a12
pd_azureworld_b1
Code:
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TH]MAP[/TH]
[TH]Overall Gameplay (score out of 10)[/TH]
[TH]Gameplay Card Usage (score out of 10)[/TH]
[TH]Overall Detailing (score out of 10)[/TH]
[TH]Detailing Card Usage (score out of 10)[/TH]
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[TD]pl_desolation_b3a_bugfix[/TD]
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[TD]cp_thalassophobia_b5i_fix_2[/TD]
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[TD]ctf_chouhen_b5a[/TD]
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[TD]cp_siege_b2[/TD]
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[TD]koth_splinter_b4[/TD]
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[TD]pl_conclave_b6b[/TD]
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[TD]cp_shanksgiving_b6[/TD]
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[TD]cp_underway_b2[/TD]
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[TD]cp_lamworth_a12[/TD]
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[TD]pd_azureworld_b1[/TD]
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[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[SPOILER="Feedback for pl_desolation_b3a_bugfix"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for cp_thalassophobia_b5i_fix_2"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for ctf_chouhen_b5a"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for cp_siege_b2"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for koth_splinter_b4"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for pl_conclave_b6b"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for cp_shanksgiving_b6"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for cp_underway_b2"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for cp_lamworth_a12"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Feedback for pd_azureworld_b1"]Put notes here![/SPOILER]
LIST OF THE MAPS' CARDS:
Put together by 14bit with added detail from the uploaders' posts, brought in by Pdan4.
------------------------------------------
Desolation
pl_desolation_b3a_bugfix
By MayaMogus
Gameplay:
#6 - VALID - "Respawn Room switches Teams: RED's first spawn becomes BLU's spawn after C is capped"
#8 - VALID - "3 or More Objectives in a Stage: Self-Explanatory, there are 4 objective points."
#9 - VALID - "The map contains a delay mechanic On C, there is an elevator you must wait to raise up to continue pushing the cart."
#12 - VALID - "At least one objective involves an elevator: To cap point A, you must use a payload elevator to cap, akin to Pheonix Last."
Detail:
#3 - VALID - "Map Contains weather events: Throughout the map there is snow blowing around"
#5 - VALID - "Throughout the map visible details make noise: In the facility there are many areas that feature computers, machinery or lava that create noise and ambience"
#6 - VALID - "Have Team Coloured Lighting: The first half of the map is set mainly outdoors, in cold lighting, but C and D feature more warm (red and orange) lighting from the foundry lava or warmer lights in the buildings"
--------------
Thalassophobia
cp_thalassophobia_b5i_fix_2
By RatsInYourWalls
Gameplay:
#3 - VALID - "Riding the big gear up crushes you"
#7 - VALID - "Point A is in a 512x512 room"
#8 - VALID - "There are 3 capture points"
#15 - VALID - "The big gear at point C acts as cover"
Detail:
#1 - VALID - "The big gear is a non stock hero prop"
#5 - VALID - "Computers make computer noises"
#4 - VALID - "Out of bounds area is next to a deep sea trench"
--------------
Chouhen
ctf_chouhen_b5a
By AlrexX
Gameplay:
#3 - VALID - "Inside the mainframe room there is an exposed electrical box tucked in a corner that will damage nearby players and instantly kill anyone who touches it."
#4 - VALID - "RED spawn is directly above terminal B, and even has a one way window that allows them to see it from inside their spawn."
#5 - VALID - "Both RED and BLU spawn never change."
#7 - VALID - "The mainframe room is exactly 512x512 (unless my measurements are wrong)."
#8 - VALID - "There's a total of 4 objectives."
#10 - VALID - "Terminals A and B are 1024 units from eachother. I believe this may also be true for B and C but I don't know how to verify that."
#14 - VALID - "The tf_logic_cp_timer entity is used for the mainframe, and also opens/closes the doors to access the room accordingly."
Detail:
#1 - VALID - "The holographic globe and the crane in the main outside area could be considered hero props."
#2 - VALID - "The map is set in Hong Kong."
#4 - VALID - "The vistas around the map are of a sprawling cityscape. (Judging by feedback it's notable enough, lol)"
#5 - VALID - "The exposed electrical box in the mainframe room emits an electric humming sound. Doesn't feel like the best match but I couldn't find anything better..."
--------------
Siege
cp_siege_b2
By robopan
Gameplay:
#3 - VALID - "The cannons people launch off of deal explosive damage that can kill low health players."
#5 - VALID - "Both spawns never change."
#8 - VALID - "There are 3 capture points."
#14 - VALID - "The last point is analogous to how Degroot Keep's last point works."
#15 - VALID - "The A point (the Well) has cover inside the capture point, similar to a nipple."
Detail:
#2 - VALID - "The map is set in a european medieval fortress."
#4 - VALID - "(Maybe?) You can see the river flowing as a vista in the 3D skybox."
#5 - VALID - "The fire, gears and waterfall make noise (although the medieval warfare soundscape kinda dampens them)."
--------------
Splinter
koth_splinter_b4
By Idolon and zythe_, with assets by pont and Sarexicus
Gameplay:
#1 - VALID - "There are four stages."
#2 - VALID - "There are four stages."
#3 - VALID - "Sawblade."
#6 - VALID - "The spawnroom in the Minehead stage is used for both teams."
#7 - VALID - "Bunker stage point is in an enclosed space smaller than 512x512."
#11 - VALID - "Three of the four point designs all feature significant playable space accessible to all classes over the control point."
#15 - VALID - "Sawblade."
Detail:
#2 - VALID - "Map is set in Germany/Austria."
#4 - VALID - "Big open vista on Sawmill stage."
#5 - VALID - "Multiple waterfalls, sawblade, idling truck."
--------------
Conclave
pl_conclave_b6b
By GuardianAngel
Gameplay:
#1 - VALID - "Map has 2 stages"
#8 - VALID - "3 objectives in both stages"
#9 - VALID - "S1 door leading to C, S2 has route that opens on A. S2 routes from B to C open after capping B"
#12 - VALID - "S1 C is an elevator for the cart"
Detail:
#4 - VALID - "S1 has views of the canyon and the expanse beyond. S2, same view but there's a train zoomin by."
#5 - VALID - "Most computers make noise, burst steam pipe near S1 A. S1 dripping air vent outside Red's second spawn. S2 Train honks its horn as it passes. S2 turbine room and lair room have engine noise."
--------------
Shanksgiving
cp_shanksgiving_b6
By MegapiemanPHD, with assets by FGD5 and SedimentarySocks
Gameplay:
#3 - VALID - "Map has at least one non-deathpit hazard - Drowning in water, Ignited by bonfire"
#8 - VALID - "At least 3 objectives in a single stage - 3 capture points"
#14 - VALID - "Make use of the tf_logic_cp_timer entity - Degroot Keep style A/D"
#15 - VALID - "At least one of the objectives has unusual cover - A point hay stack"
Detail:
#2 - VALID - "map is set in a location other than the United Stages - Norfolk Island, Australia"
#5 - VALID - "Have visable details throughout the map make ambient noises - fire"
--------------
Underway
cp_underway_b2
By Brandini Panini
Gameplay:
#3 - VALID - "Map has at least one non-deathpit hazard (Saw on A)"
#6 - VALID - "At least one spawnroom can change ownership (Red's first spawn becomes blu's last spawn)"
#8 - VALID - "At least 3 objectives in a single stage (3 CP)"
#11 - VALID - "At least one objective under another, separate playable space (Area over B)"
#15 - VALID - "At least one of the objectives has unusual cover (Wall dividing B)"
Detail:
#4 - VALID - "Your out-of-bounds area(s) should set your map in a notable vista(s) (Giant bridge over map and valley below)"
#5 - VALID - "Have visible details throughout the map make ambient noises (Saw, Vehicles, Generators, Lights, Pipes)"
--------------
Lamworth
cp_lamworth_a12
By Auwi
Gameplay:
#1 - VALID - "Map has second stage"
#4 - VALID - "Active spawnroom directly below/above active objective (Red's stage 1 spawnroom is directly below CP 2)"
#5 - VALID - "Spawnroom never changes, even across multiple stages (Blu keeps same spawnroom on both stage 1 and stage 2)"
#7 - VALID - "One objective in room no bigger than 512x512 (Stage 2 CP 1 is in small room)"
#9 - VALID - "Contains delay mechanic (Stage 1 door between CP 1 and CP 2 is delayed and opens slowly)"
#10 - VALID - "At least two objectives within 1024hu of each other (Stage 2 CP 1 and CP 2 within 1024hu)"
#11 - VALID - "At least one objective under a separate playable space (Stage 2 CP 1 has playable space above)"
#15 - VALID - "At least one objective has unusual cover (Stage 2 CP 2)"
Detail:
#2 - VALID - "Map is set outside of the United States (It's in London!)"
#4 - VALID - "Map is set in a notable vista (Among landmarks of London)"
--------------
Azure world
pd_azureworld_b1
By Seacat08 and Stack Man, with assets by Pinewabble and Lacry
Gameplay:
#3 - VALID - "Multiple details around the map injure the player from a non-deathpit hazard, such as the torches igniting players letting them burn."
#5 - VALID - "Both team's spawns stay the same through the entire match"
#7 - VALID - "The boardwalk point is in a little shack measuring out to under 512 x 512 units"
#9 - VALID - "As it is PD the point is disabled for 30 or so seconds after the cap time is over" #10 - DISCARD - the objectives are 1068.172271hu apart at their closest point
#11 - VALID - "The boardwalk shacks are accessible and able to be played on without direct access to the capture area."
#15 - VALID - "The main building point has a fountain, statue and concave capture zone leading to some unusual cover to play around"
Detail:
#1 - VALID - "There are multiple hero props found around the map such as the statue in the main building and the lighthouse"
#2 - VALID - "The map is set in an Italian styled resort with Italian influences and signs" #3 - DISCARD - after extensive discussion among judges. It is not a "major" part of the map, as the rule states, since the two effects are only seen in one room each."
#4 - VALID - "The 3d skybox contains a perfect view of the cove that t"he resort lies in with a glimpse of the ocean beyond, alongside a mountain off in the distance
#5 - VALID - "Multiple details contain sounds like record players playing music, bongos and bells that make sounds when you hit them alongside flowing streams and bubbling lava" (Note from Pdan4: the boost pads seem to make a very, very faint humming noise.)
#6 - VALID - "Red side is coated in yellow and red lighting with Red spawn being illuminated by lava. Blue spawn is painted in cooler colours mainly coming from the damp caves and flowing streams that are on that side of the map."
#7 - VALID - "The skybox uses moving clouds, a moving orca and when the point is captured the orca bursts through the boardwalk in the skybox."
Congrats again to all entries and good luck to the other finalists !!!
MAP
Overall Gameplay (score out of 10)
Gameplay Card Usage (score out of 10)
Overall Detailing (score out of 10)
Detailing Card Usage (score out of 10)
pl_desolation_b3a_bugfix
This
is
mine
cp_thalassophobia_b5i_fix_2
7
6.5
8
6
ctf_chouhen_b5a
5
6.5
8.5
6
cp_siege_b2
6.5
6
6.5
4.5
koth_splinter_b4
7.5
7
9
5
pl_conclave_b6b
5
6
6
5
cp_shanksgiving_b6
5
4
6
4
cp_underway_b2
7
7
7
6
cp_lamworth_a12
8
8
5
4
pd_azureworld_b1
5
6.5
8
8.5
I gave (a hopefully accurate) final score of each vote using the table provided that calculates it. these scores are subject to change though so don’t get too attached
Thank you all for playing my map. It’s been a blast to work on it. I started this contest with no inkling of what makes a good map and I’m blessed to have been able to create something you all had fun on. thanks to all who’ve been desolation-heads since day 1 or will vote on it well after the last few weeks of tests. Regardless, this is a contest so I concede there are flaws to my map yes, so I’ll take any criticism in the votes happily, as to improve the next version. Thank you all again, and may the best map win :3
With the 2 rounds of it, i can say i do enjoy the map gameplay wise, but the detailing i take some issue with. Many textures aren't tf2 styled and the theme itself is quite far from tf2 itself. The gear as a hazard also feels a bit silly and only counts on technicality, still a cool map though
(6.245) Chouhen was a very interesting map to see develop with its game mode changes and whatnot but I think it's found a somewhat stable foundation for a good map. It's gameplay card choices are very well executed and it's fun to see where they're used (the spawn above B is v cool :3) but the gameplay itself feels a bit unfocused at times near C mostly. The detailing is quite nice but does get quite busy, but is still overall quite nice to look at. It’s just the gameplay inconsistency that kinda does it for me unfortunately, but it’s still fun
(6.003) Out of the two medieval maps, siege is the better of the two imo. Both of the maps suffer from being quite similar to degroot and relying too heavily on the timer mechanic, but where siege does better is that it tries more to have a unique identity, mostly with its cannon gimmick. Still, it still suffers from a lack of depth in gameplay which is fine for this map, but hurts it for this contest when it comes to ustilising the cards to their fullest and and in a creative way that doesn't copy other formulas
(7.168) Easily a top 3 contender here. Lots and lots of great decisions were made with this map, and it's generally fun enough to play. Not much I can really complain about other than what you already know about ido (asymm use and the location :/ ).
(5.5) Well conclave. It's a mixed bag for me. I do enjoy a good bit of stage 1 although the frontline isn't well established most of the time. I've had a sort of DM ish experience with it which might seem odd for others. It might be due to the long flanks on the left side, but the cliff area is quite nice and looks pretty sick with the vista. The map unfortunately struggles when it comes to stage 2. Blu spawn is quite tricky to initially push out of and feels to similar to dustbowl stage 2 spawn. But after that it's a flank fest until the final point, which is where the gameplay picks up a bit again, which is nice. The big rocket is very cool, and I love the elevator on stage 1. The card usage is somewhat lacking interesting experimentation but is nice nevertheless. The delay mechanic I've never noticed in game though, so that's not ideal for me
(4.665) Shanksgiving to me is just too similar to degroot. I still have fun, and it's still good ol' medieval, but it borrows too much from degroot keep. My main concern with this map is that it doesn't feel like it was made for this contest. The only notably unique thing to it is the haystacks on A and C but besides that, it's just a regular medieval map. It doesn't try much to deviate from degroot as much as siege does and that's unfortunate. It's still a fun map, and I do enjoy playing it, but it doesn't hold as well in terms of creativity. The detailing in the interiors is pretty sick I will be honest, but the exteriors have some areas that are lacking, notably the buildings on the gate wall. The gameplay cards as I've said are 3/4 just by using degroot mode (and I think you'd qualify for spawns not changing too) but the fire damage is notable addition though and I like it as a sniper. The detail cards are sufficient enough but the Australianness isn't quite as apparent as I'd want it to be other than a few flags, but they are a nice detail to the map.
(6.835) Underway is just a solid map. It doesn't exceed spectacularly in just one field, but does very good in all of them, which puts it quite high and in my top 3. The gameplay is good and B is my favourite point as it's unusual cover is very evident. The detailing is a bit dark and the final point could use a bit more work but I absolutely dig (pun intended) the construction theme
(6.845) Probably my favourite gameplay out of the bunch has some great use of vertical spaces and the amount of gameplay cards is very respectable. However as I'm sure you understand it's detailing isn't up to standard, at least for stage 2. The detail cards are fulfilled just cause of a few skybox props and not much else, except for a few buildings in stage 1. Stage 1 B is 90% that red metal texture and of course, stage 2 is in dev textures. I can understand the stress of time limits but this is a contest so I'd have to mark it harshly, but I think the amazing gameplay makes up for this
(6.575) Azureworld is quite the map. While it's gameplay might be lacking, and some of its gameplay cards aren't utilised as well as they could (the fire damaging you for eg. It is quite negligible), it's vibe, detailing and spectacle and more than make up for the small dips in gameplay quality. The effort put into this was not wasted one bit
Most of the areas are fun to play in, good back and forth and good options for all the classes.
Really nails the cold and desolate vibe, this map really feels cold.
Good utilization of the gameplay cards, even if the picks are bit on the safe side, none of the card additions impact the map negatively.
Full marks for detailing card usage, executes everything really well.
CONS:
B is not impossible to push but it is not fun to push, there are few very awkward sentry spots to attack because of the bent shape of the point.
Feels a bit too easy to push blue back to A when defending, a lot of the time the routes the attackers are meant to utilize are being abused by the defenders instead.
C has a touch too much gameplay which comes down to pushing through doorways into awkward corner angles.
The map looks nice but it doesn't really feel like it has areas that stand out from one another, B to C really stands out but everything else all blurs together.
Finale does not really scream finale, it feels like just another room, just slightly larger than usual.
PROS:
A and C play decent enough but there is quite a bit room for improvement.
The gear is a cool hero prop.
Good card usage overall.
CONS:
B is a mess, it is really awkward for red to get a foothold in time after losing A so most of the time it is captured with no contest. If red manages to actually get a hold going, it is absolute misery to push. Way too many pushes that involve walking through doorways into long angles that are practically around the corner.
Routing overall on this map feels very spread out, you are really locked in once you pick your angle of attack, this results in teams sometimes splitting up into lots of small groups.
Above problem also means red keeps consistently sneaking behind blue and pushing away from their objectives, there are rounds where it felt like I was the one on offense when playing on red.
The gear, while cool, is surprisingly "hidden" for such a big element of the map, I feel like it could be placed somewhere else on C, maybe in a different angle, to really get in the mix.
Detailing is a touch too blocky, especially around last.
Map overall lacks that TF2 flair, it looks alright but when I think of a secret underwater base in the TF2 universe, I see something you would see in old James Bond movies. This map, especially the computers and the sliding doors, look like something I'd see in System Shock.
Overall Gameplay: I think this map is the most consistently fun map out of the contest. Even in more frustrating moments, like when pushing the cart at point B, its still fun and feels great when your team finally pushes through. While there is room for improvement, I think overall this map plays great. Gameplay Card Usage: Overall the gameplay cards used on this map are used well, and the more "unique" cards, being the delay mechanic and the elevator card, directly impact gameplay in a way that makes this payload map memorable compared to others. Overall Detailing: One of the nicest looking maps in the contest. This map does a great job at taking the classic tf2 style and lore into account into making a map that just fits in with the rest of tf2 well; while still having its own distinct personality. I'm also just a sucker for brutalist architecture, I can't lie. Detailing Card Usage: The detailing cards used are used fine enough, however I especially appreciate this map being the one and only map that uses the weather card, and I think said card is used particularly well. The added weather adds a lot to this map's aesthetic, in my opinion.
Overall Gameplay: This map is just fun, and every time I've played it I've had fun. Even if the map is mostly attacker-sided, it's still fun defending anyways. Gameplay Card Usage: This map has 4 gameplay cards, and they're all used pretty well. The big gear is just a fun thing to have on the map, and makes defending last interesting. The 512x512 card is probably my favorite one used, and it makes point A my favorite out of the 3. Overall Detailing: I really love the detailing on this map, it feels very unique compared to the average tf2 map in what I think is a good way. It's very much a different take on an industrial setting, and I like it. Detailing Card Usage: This map has 3 detailing cards, and all do a great job at giving this map it's identity. This map actually does a good job with the ambient noises card, which I feel like other maps just put it in as a free card. And I love the giant gear. I don't care if it doesn't make any sense for an underwater base to have giant gears in it, I love it.
Overall Gameplay: This map is fun in the most chaotic way. Points will get taken without you even noticing, a well placed sticky trap will stop an entire team push, and the fight for point D is a wild shoot fest in the hopes of killing something; all together making a map that's fun just to watch and see what happens. Gameplay Card Usage: This map uses quite a few gameplay cards, and I think all of them put together are what makes this map as enjoyable as it is. I particularly like having point B underneath red's spawn; it's a neat touch being able to see through the glass floor. Overall Detailing: This map has my favorite detailing out of the contest; seeing the city skyline surround you while fighting through the halls of the skyscraper you're in is just genuinely enjoyable. Everything about the map feels lived in in a way that I feel like other maps don't quite have. Detailing Card Usage: All of the cards used when put together is what makes this map what it is; even if they're little additions like the electrical noises. The map simply wouldn't be the same if some of these cards were gone, and I feel like that's a sign of good card usage.
Overall Gameplay: This map does a good job of taking the "degroot keep formula" and putting a unique, fun spin on it. The cannons are fun to use, and the verticality this map has is a breath of fresh air for medieval maps. The only issue I have is that point C is just boring and feels more of a slaughter fest than it needs to be. Gameplay Card Usage: Most cards used are simply given due to this map being a degroot keep-like, however the unique A-point design and the cannons being a way of killing you (even if I think that's a silly use of the hazard card) work on making this map a bit unique in that regard. Overall Detailing: This map's detailing is quite nice, even if it's not particularly fancy. The giant, looming castle in front of a moat makes this map feel unique compared to other maps using the medieval assets, and it overall does a good job at conveying what the map is; a medieval invasion of red's castle. Detailing Card Usage: The cards are used nicely, but aren't particularly unique; 2/3 of them are given from simply using the medieval theme. That being said, I do like the river vista. I think more could've been done with the detailing cards.
Overall Gameplay: This map has four different koth stages put into one map, and all four stages are fun! It's an incredibly unique idea that I think payed off in the end; it makes the map have it's own unique identity without actually sacrificing gameplay. Every stage feels unique to fight in, and I've just generally had fun when playing this map. Gameplay Card Usage: I feel this map uses its card pretty well, from the multiple stages, 3/4 stages having gameplay space above the point, and the use of a saw blade as cover. I think it all adds up to pretty unique experience. Overall Detailing: This map is just really, really well detailed. It does a great job with feeling distinct while still taking a "classic" approach and fitting in well with the rest of tf2. I like it. Detailing Card Usage: This map simply does not read as German. That being said, I don't really know what rural industrial Germany is supposed to look like in the first place, so I don't really think its your fault it doesn't read that way to me. Without the translated signs around the map, I think it would be very easy to assume it just takes place somewhere in America.
Overall Gameplay: This maps gameplay can be very hit-or-miss, sometimes playing extremely well for both attacking and defending, but other times playing extremely poorly. There are some things I like on both stages, particularly I like both of the stages' last points, when played well both points feel like a true fight to see who can win. That being said, there is definitely room for improvement. Gameplay Card Usage: The cards used on this map aren't particularly groundbreaking, and I honestly feel like the map having two stages introduced more problems than needed. That being said, I do like the elevator as stage 1's last point; it makes for interesting fights in that area. I also really like the giant door that opens in stage 2, it just feels cool to watch it open. Overall Detailing: This map detailing is a bit rough around the edges, with having a particularly large amount of missing displacements. I do like it, being a bit of a different take to the classic badlands style. I'm particularly a fan of the inside areas of stage 2; the giant rocket is just cool, and I like the more unique use of dark brown-ish red for the lair's accent color rather than just normal red team red. Detailing Card Usage: This map only has two detailing cards, one being the ambient sounds card and the other being the vista card. While I don't really care about the ambient sounds card (it's used fine enough, but nothing to write home about), I do really like the vista, and seeing the little train go across the bridge is cute.
Overall Gameplay: This map certainly doesn't do anything wrong, but it also doesn't do anything to make this map stand out in terms of medieval gameplay. It just feels like degroot keep, to the point that the attacker's spawn room is almost identical to degroot's. I wish it was more original in terms of gameplay. Gameplay Card Usage: While this map does fulfill the cards it uses, once again I wish this map did something more unique to make it stand out. Half of the cards fulfilled were given simply because of the gamemode, and the two other cards fulfilled aren't spectacularly used. Overall Detailing: Once again, the detailing isn't bad by any means, but it's not the best thing i've ever seen, either. The detailing feels flat overall, and I think it could be vastly improved. Detailing Card Usage: This map only uses two cards; and neither feel really used to their full potential. The map is said to be in Australia, and while there's a flag on the map that points to it being outside of America, there isn't really anything that makes this map particularly "Australian". The other card is for ambient noise, which is only used for the fire found on the map. I wish more cards were used.
Overall Gameplay: Gameplay on this map is just solid all around. Could be improved, but overall I always have fun playing this one. Gameplay Card Usage: Overall just very good card usage; particularly the two cards used for point B, making it one of the most unique point designs in this entire contest personally. Said B point also plays extremely unique compared to anything else in the contest, and I think the uniqueness sells. Overall Detailing: Once again, just really solid detailing. I personally love the construction theme, so seeing it used here makes me happy. The map makes you feel like you're in a construction zone, and that's what it needs to do. I think more time could've been spent polishing up the detailing, though. Detailing Card Usage: This map only uses two cards, and I think more could've been implemented, but that being said; I really, really love that under construction bridge in the 3d skybox. It might just be my favorite use of the vista card.
Overall Gameplay: I've generally had fun on this map! That being said, I think stage 1 plays much better than stage 2, and I think it would be an easy assumption for me to make that stage 2 just didn't get as much development time as stage 1 did. I hope stage 2 gets some layout improvements in the future. Gameplay Card Usage: Most cards used in this map are used pretty well, and I think blu team having the same spawn on both stages is an extremely neat touch. However, there's a few cards that I don't think were used so well: particularly the delay mechanic card and the 512x512 room card. You can easily mitigate the delay mechanic by simply going through the other route to point B. The 512x512 card just makes that point feel weird to both attack and defend, personally. Overall Detailing: Stage 1 is really well detailed, and the map does a great job at making me feel like I'm in London! That being said, stage 2 is just not finished, and is completely missing textures. For obvious reasons I'm gonna have to knock this score down. I do think the brushwork on stage 2 is still pretty good and does a well enough job at indicating what kind of place you're in (a subway station, for example), and the facade of stage 2's point B building is just really good looking even without textures. Detailing Card Usage: This map uses two cards, both simply given to the map being very obviously in London. They're obviously fulfilled well, but I think more cards could've been implemented.
Overall Gameplay: I have to admit this map plays really weirdly, even if I overall like it. I do enjoy the boost pads, but it honestly feels like the map layout itself limits the enjoyment of them. The map feels just a bit too cramped everywhere, even in the more open areas like the beach, and the two capture points (the boardwalk and the statue room) feel completely disconnected from each other. I understand that the statue room has doors for optimization reasons, but those doors make the entire area feel separated from the rest of the map. I do really like the boost pad out of the waterfall, though. Gameplay Card Usage: This map uses quite a few gameplay cards, and they're all used well, but none particularly stand out to me as impressive usage of them. The non-deathpit hazard card usage feels a bit like an after thought. Overall Detailing: Regardless of my feelings on gameplay, I'd be lying if I said this map wasn't amazingly detailed. This map does an amazing job at making you feel like you're at a tropical resort on summer vacation, which is something I haven't really seen in a tf2 map before. I really like how the water on this map looks, too. Detailing Card Usage: All of the (valid) detailing cards are used extremely well, all working together to make this map as visually cool as it is. The 3d skybox is just great, and I absolutely love the orca crashing thru the boardwalk when the match ends.
The most consistently solid map of the contest, in my opinion. It may fail to have the unique gamemodes, layouts, or gimmicks that other maps have to help them stand out, but it makes up for it by having both excellent gameplay and visuals.
The gear at C, which is used for half of the cards in the map, does not make good use of any of them. Also, the entire map looks the exact same, which makes it visually boring and somewhat difficult to navigate.
A fun, creative map that provides a gameplay experience unlike any other map I have ever played. The gameplay is unique and dynamic, and the visuals are excellent. Overall, a fun map that stands out in a good way.
This map easily has the strangest layout out of any of the finalists in this contest. Everything in this map feels like it was oriented around the cannons, while failing to consider movement without them.
A gambit of a map idea that somehow ends up working well. Excluding some gameplay oversights, the map plays well, and the visuals are excellent.
A map that only be described as "mediocre". Both the gameplay and the visuals are acceptable, but fail to stand out in any way whatsoever.
This map is perhaps the least innovative map of the whole contest. The gameplay is very reminiscent of DeGroot Keep, except it lacks what makes DeGroot Keep a fun experience. The visuals are nothing to write home about, but the theming around it is at least notable. Finally, the cards are used very poorly, often only counting out of technicality rather than fitting in naturally. Overall, it is a somewhat boring map, both in how it essentially recycles another map, and in how it fails to take advantage of the most important part of the contest: the cards.
A solid map overall, with creative applications of cards around B. Unfortunately, I don't have much else to say about this map, but I can safely say it is one of the better maps in the list.
A solid map that, unfortunately, ends up falling behind the others. The map is solid gameplay-wise overall. Where the map is lacking, however, is in the visuals, with the first stage looking somewhat lackluster and the second stage lacking detailing whatsoever. I look forward to seeing this map as it further progresses, but it fails to live up to many of its competitors as it is now.
This map, while visually beautiful, has many gameplay issues that hinder the map severely.
Gameplay:
The map plays very differently from what it is intended to. From what I can tell, players are supposed to cycle throughout the map dynamically between a "main" point and a "safe" point. However, what usually ends up happening is that the teams set up on each side and only occasionally poke their heads out to gather leis to capture. The actually playstyle is the antithesis of what I suspect it is supposed to be, and it leads to a campy, somewhat boring gameplay experience.
The various gimmicks around the map usually serve to hinder gameplay rather then enhance it. Boost pads, for example, are a good idea on paper, but end up being more of a burden in practice. They don't do much for movement, and can often get in the way during combat if you aren't paying attention. The only time I imagine they would be useful is as a single-use mobility option during combat, which debatably undermines fundamental TF2 design in relation to class mobility. Many of the other gimmicks in this map, such as the cannons in each spawn, feel much the same: unique, yet ultimately either pointless or detrimental to the map's gameplay.
Visuals:
- This map is easily one of the best looking maps in the contest.
Simply a great map. All points feel distinct, routing is good, combat spaces are fun, detailing looks pretty good overall, but some less-important areas can look a little weird.
Card feedback: no complaints, 10/10.
I like this map a lot, but there are some problems, specifically at B. B can become impenetrable if RED is able to set up, but if BLU pushes in early enough, it's a throwaway point due to RED's respawn time. Despite that, it's still very fun and looks good overall. I wish there were greater progression of detail throughout the map to make areas feel a bit more distinct.
Card feedback: #3 is a little questionable, since even though technically the gear CAN kill you, I have almost never seen it happen. Everything else is good.
My opinion remains unchanged from preliminary voting: "I like this map in general, but having played its previous versions, I think it may have been better for me when it wasn't insta-cap. Insta-cap kinda boils down the gameplay to just defending one point, despite the close proximity of most of the points (which I greatly enjoy -- quick rotates are fun). D is kind of a cluster, but I do find myself thinking the actual area and routing to it works well. I don't like that the flag isn't required for the final cap, though. Detailing is really nice, if a bit overdone in places, and the theme feels really unique. I like that this is the type of map that benefits greatly from actual teamplay, and would honestly be interested in seeing more games with coordinated team strats on this map."
Card feedback: Having both the crane and globe be considered hero props feels kind of wishy-washy and like it perhaps was not given as much attention as the other cards. No other complaints.
Fun medieval map. Cannon gimmick works great, A and B are cool distinct points, but C kind of ruins a good amount of the fun of the map for me, since it feels a bit too close to DeGroot Keep last, which I am not a fan of. Detailing is decent overall, medieval theme is executed fine, but kind of messy in some places, and the cannons are just begging for higher fidelity brushwork/a custom model with how core they are to the map's identity.
Card feedback: The river does not feel significant enough for a vista in my opinion. I get that the map has the medieval theme so therefore must be set in Europe, but it feels kind of... cheap? without anything else to reinforce the theming. I don't mean for this to sound unfair, but I think different detail cards maybe could have been executed better. No other issues.
My opinion remains unchanged from preliminary voting: "I think this is probably the best-looking map of the contest, and it plays pretty well, too. I really enjoy the concept of the BO5 across four different KOTH stages, and I think it's executed here about as well as it feasibly can be (I also don't think that the mode scoring/win condition being "broken," assuming it actually is, is a dealbreaker). The asymmetry between sides is notable, but not so extreme that one team gets a major advantage. I wasn't a huge fan of the Minehead stage, since it felt really easy to hold the point in the tiny houses on the platform, and I thought the highest point of the roof area on the Sawmill stage was maybe a little bit too high/strong, but besides those minor issues, I think the map is pretty solid."
Card feedback: The only additional thing I must add here is that I do agree the map doesn't do enough to really sell that it takes place in Austria/Germany -- I appreciate the effort that went in to the custom German signs, but they alone don't make me buy it, since the rest of the map just kind of feels like it could be any other TF2 map taking place in America/wherever else. Everything else is done well.
I have much more to say about this now that I've played it more. The difficulty curve this map has feels inverse to what it should be -- stage 1 feels a lot more difficult to push than stage 2, unless RED is able to set up on stage 2 last before BLU takes over all the space. I don't like that a lot of routes go so far behind the current point; it leads to the feeling of people ending up in random spots and flanking at random times. I like stage 1 more than stage 2, because stage 2 feels a lot more aimless in layout design. That said, I am still not a big fan of stage 1, due to aforementioned routing issues and the fact it still feels like "pl_hallway" to me at the beginning of the map. I still think the detailing is pretty good overall, but some areas are lacking a good bit of polish/look unfinished.
Card feedback: One of the few gameplay cards I take issue with is #12 for this map -- the elevator at the end of stage 1 feels unnecessary and makes it much too difficult to cap a lot of the time. I think it actively harms the map and should have been swapped for a different card. For detail, vistas are good, but card #5 does not feel integral to the map's identity and like it could have been implemented in a more impactful manner.
My opinion remains unchanged from preliminary voting: "Does not do enough to meaningfully differentiate itself from Degroot Keep. Despite the points having unique points of interest, none of them were really memorable and not much fighting actually happened around them. I think C is a slight improvement over Degroot, but doesn't really do much to prevent the map devolving into BLU team funnelling in nonstop due to the slow cap progress decay. This map is desparately in need of a major gimmick to make it stand out -- it's a shame the cannons are non-functional, as those could have given the map some more flair. Detailing-wise, the map looks nice, but just feels like stock medieval theme with some custom text overlays, pyres, and an Australian flag. The tree models used in the map also look a bit strange; they seem too dark in the middle and the leaves look weirdly 'fuzzy.'"
Card feedback: Gameplay #3 including drowning feels cheap, but ignited by bonfire is fine, despite it not really adding much to the map. The map definitely shows it's set outside of the US, but it's a little on the nose.
I have a great time on this map. Point designs are unique, layout is interesting and fun, my only real complaints are that C can feel a little weird to both attack and defend, and that may just be because of how the room is set up, and that the area connecting B to C is not that interesting for how much gameplay feels like it happens there. Detailing is really solid, but I think it could lean into the construction theme a bit more, especially around point A, with point C transitioning to more spytech influence.
Card feedback: I take a tiny bit of issue with the vistas card since it's not really a "traditional" vista, but overall it's executed well and is unique. Everything else is good.
Pretty fun map; my main complaint here is that stage 1 B can sometimes be extremely difficult to attack due to how split the routing is, and the fact that the area BLU has to push through is relatively cramped. Other than that, I really enjoy all the points and think the layout works well. Detailing looks super great overall, but due to the fact the second stage is still dev textured and clearly not finished (though it still looks good simply due to the geo), I have to dock points.
Card feedback: No complaints.
The map just generally feels not great to play on. Being shot out of spawn by the boost pad has you hitting your head on the ceiling, and landing on the flat beach area where a LOT of combat takes place, despite it being an uninteresting combat space that (I feel) is further hindered by the presence of boost pads. The boost pads just feel like they interfere with gameplay more than they enhance it. The only boost pads I thought were neat were in the blue team tunnel where one of their spawn exits is, since those pads felt like they made sense given the geometry of the area, but at the same time, I don't think I would miss them if they were removed entirely. I barely ever saw fighting happen at the building point; I really don't like that the map splits up players so much. It feels as though there are two maps completely at odds with each other here, and I wish they were better integrated with each other, or that one of the points were removed entirely. Additionally, clipping felt poor around structures like the bridge point and in the interiors. This was also the only finalist of the contest that I experienced significant frame drops on due to the optimization. I think the detailing is generally done really well, and the theming feels very unique and well-executed, but I feel like the coolest details don't get the spotlight that they maybe should receive. For example, I never actually got to see the Orca finale, since I didn't know where to look, or I was dead.
Card feedback: I am mixed here, because while #10 is was deemed to not be a valid card per the rules of the contest, I still feel like it's one of the biggest contributors to why the map feels so large and split apart (objectives forced to be too far apart), and since the map was designed with it that card in mind, I have to lower the gameplay card score a bit.
You can see how the feedback becomes shorter and less intricate as I go down the list. (I'm tired)
MAP
Overall Gameplay (score out of 10)
Gameplay Card Usage (score out of 10)
Overall Detailing (score out of 10)
Detailing Card Usage (score out of 10)
pl_desolation_b3a_bugfix
7.9
10
8.4
10
cp_thalassophobia_b5i_fix_2
6.9
8
7.8
9
ctf_chouhen_b5a
6.2
8
8.7
10
cp_siege_b2
N/A
N/A
N/A
N/A
koth_splinter_b4
7.5
10
9.2
9.5
pl_conclave_b6b
6.0
7
7.6
9.5
cp_shanksgiving_b6
7.1
9
6.9
9.5
cp_underway_b2
6.7
9
8.2
10
cp_lamworth_a12
7.1
8
7.0
10
pd_azureworld_b1
6.3
10
9.0
10
I think this map plays quite well, and offers a unique and interesting layout. A and B play decently, C is my favourite one, but I don't quite like playing last. If I were to try to put it into words, I'd say that it feels a bit bad to play there both as attack and defense. The sentry spots feel a bit awkward to defend because of how you have to turn 180 degrees to rotate between the fronts, and also that right route goes a bit into behind the team feels a bit crap to get attacked from if you were focusing on the "main" path. I think it would feel better to defend if the angle at which attackers come from were less wide, akin to borneo. (See crappy sketches)
As for why it feels bad to attack last, I'm not too sure about it. I feel like all 3 routes, except the one that goes behind, feel a bit too weak, which is why you see more people attacking from it than the "main" route. I feel like that route sees more traffic because the staging area for BLU is better there. If I were to change it, I'd try to make it easier for BLU to rotate between the 3 routes from the staging area, and maybe try to encourage BLU forward holds on the left side.
The reason why I gave this map a 10 on gameplay card usage is because I feel none of the cards were detrimental to the experience. In fact, I'd say the map is quite better with them than without, and they are quite well exectued. The elevator point on A feels quite good, and the delay at C plays pretty nicely as well.
Visually speaking, this map is gorgeous, and I have very few complaints. My main gripe is that sometimes the geometry feels a bit blocky or chunky in some spots, and maybe too gray(even though that's the theme). Lemme give some examples:
They're fine... but I wish there was a bit more, y'know?
This map plays decent enough on all points, but I have a few gripes on each one. Defending A was fair enough until BLU start flanking all the way into our spawn. I don't see the point of a route that makes it so easy to just ignore the point.
I've seen B get rolled when RED didn't setup in advance because of how long it takes to them to build a hold compared to how quick BLU arrives to it from A, but if RED get through it B seems to be quite hard to attack.
C seems to be too skewed towards RED even compared to other lasts, I felt like RED always spawned just in time to defend it. Maybe add 1s to the spawn wave?
Attacking wise, it felt a bit rough on all points. If I were to change something, I'd try making the time to rotate between the routes at C for BLU a bit shorter, and also make it harder for RED to just flank from the under route and destroy the forward hold.
On card usage, I feel like the only one that was detrimental was the 512x512 room one. I feel like A could be more interesting if it were larger/had a bit more around it. Also I don't think I've used the gear to cover myself, only to throw myself into it.
Detailing wise, the theme of the map is really cool! B is the coolest one, since it's the one where you can observe the sea easier. I wish the sea was more integrated into the design of the other points though. Geometry wise, I think it felt a bit blocky, and I think the map would look cooler if instead of so many straight edges and straight lines there were more curves and cilindres and tubes and stuff, similar to the stereotypical underwater base.
This map has a fair bit of problems, still I had fun on it. You'd think A/D CTF would work bad with multiple points being available, since what I think it makes those kinda maps like gravelpit cool to play is to have a bunch of the team backcapping the other point to redirect the RED teams attention and those sort of mindgames, which isn't really feasible with flags. However I think there's still some depth to the gameplay of Chouhen when you choose whether to attack the easier A or C and make B harder, or risk it for a hard B which makes A and C easier.
Something I don't like is how disconnected the flag carrier and its team feel. The flag carrier holds all the decisions and the rest of the team plays to distract RED or destroy their defenses wherever they've put them. Only when there's one point left you can see more of the coordination between them, this is, when it plays like normal A/D CTF.
The last point being a proper point on a timer I think makes up for the flags being a bit hard to defend from a sneaky scout or something alike. However, I think it plays a bit weird. BLU usually rush it and cap without any back-and-forth, and if they fail to do so, they very hardly come back in time.
The cards chosen work pretty well with what the map is trying to make. However, I don't like how small the playing area for the last point is.
This map is visually great, and the theme is pretty cool. It really is cool to jump between skyscrapers, and the Hong Kong setting gives it a neat touch. I like the colors as well, although sometimes it's too much in my opinion.
Whoever made this must be pretty cool...
I had fun on the map! The 4 layouts seemed decent to play, although I think the rounds suffer from being too short, having a 2 minute timer instead of 3. I really felt sometimes like a team could've made a comeback with an extra minute. I've gotten fond to the idea to the layout change every round, it makes it hard to get bored of the map.
I think the map benefits from all the cards chosen.
I really love how the map looks. It has nice colors but it never feels too much, it's quite easy in the eye. The theme is cool, and in general it looks like a proper official map. I like as well how differentiated are the points.
If I had to critique something specific about the artpass, I'd say the sawblade point looks a bit weird. The yellow floor with the rock texture on its side looks a bit off.
This map plays fair enough, but I really don't like defending as a RED engineer on this map.
Stage 1: there's a weird nobuild brush that makes it clunky to put a tele in front of spawn. I don't like how weak the hold for A is, mainly because there's this flank that every BLU team uses to just go right behind you. I've never seen B point get defended, and the paths for BLU kinda lead them to RED spawn instead of the point. C point seems a bit rough to defend as solo engie.
Stage 2: I think this one plays better, but when B is capped RED players spawn on the wrong spawn.
I don't see the point of the elevator point on Stage 1, it doesn't play very differently from a rollback zone. I also feel like some of the routes that open feel a bit frustrating for RED.
I like the theme and colors of the map, though I think the geometry is a bit blocky, specially for the rocks.
(I took these pics from the download page lol)
I like medieval mode, and I like this map as well. However, I don't like how similar this plays to Degroot Keep (a bit hypocritical, I know). The B point does some cool stuff with verticality and water and a bridge, but it makes A feel a bit lame in comparison. I think the last point is an improvement on Degroot Keep's last, but I think it feels a bit rough being attacked from your front and your back at the same time when being on the point.
I'm not the biggest fan of the unusual cover on A.
The theme of the map is pretty funny, but I think the artpass is just ok and the buildings look a bit rough, especially on the rooves.
I think this map plays well enough, however I'm not a big fan of the experience you get as a defending engineer on it. A lot of the spaces are simply too big for a sentry to be effective. On A there's just that one hold area (that doesn't even cover the entirety of the point), B is a bit more kind to engie, and on C there's just that high ground on the verge of being outranged and a few sneaky spots. In general playing engineer on this map feels kinda limited.
Despite this, I think this map has good pace and interesting gameplay spaces.
The wall on B felt like it favoured RED more than BLU in my opinion. A defending heavy can kinda just park at the back side of the cover and BLU has to come out for him. There's some height to make this strategy weaker and shake things up, but I feel like the idea could've been executed better.
I really like how the map looks! Night time theme is always cool and the industrial setting is done pretty well.
I feel like this map plays good for the most of it. My least favourite point is S2 A, because the sentry spot there doesn't really cover the entirety of the point and there's these paths that bypass the point and just go straight to the nest spot. An engie would need their teammates to both take care of the sneaky points the sentry doesn't cover and also take care of that flank, which doesn't seem to happen a lot.
Despite the point being hard to defend, it's a pretty good forward hold for RED. I wish it was the opposite if I'm honest.
All the other points feel good enough.
(Edit: I just played a round of S2 A lamworth were it was well defended by an engie by putting a sentry on top of the high ground. Feel free to take my comments with a grain of salt.)
I don't think the map really benefited from S2 A being either 512x512 or having this space above it.
The theme is really really cool! I hope to see this artpass finished! Despite this, as it's unfinished, I gave it a 7. If it's any consolation, I gave it a better score than shanksgiving.
In this map I had a lot of mindless fun. However I also had a lot of mindless unfun, if that makes sense. It's just that this map is very chaotic, without any proper frontlines or a face of retreat or something like that. The beach mid especially is where I feel this the most. The speed pads are pretty cool but sometimes they feel clunky if you go the wrong direction. I wish this map had more of those holds sports like the fountain point had. I had fun taking down sentries and stuff there. This map also suffers a bit of spawncamping.
I can see this map being really fun for some people, but I am just kinda ok about it.
I think all the cards chosen either benefited the map or weren't harmful, so you get a 10 for card usage.
The map looks gorgeous and I like the theme. If I were to critique something, is that it sometimes feels like too much. There's some parts which are so detail dense, and I like when a map has less detailed parts which elevates a centerpiece of the map.
Very fun, the only caveat is flanking being a bit too prevalent. The layout is so, so close to Valve standards - hell, if this was officially added, I wouldn't complain. Visually it looks great, there might be tiny spots where lighting isn't up to par but those can easily be fixed. No issues with any of the cards, they're very well done.
Points do differ quite a bit when it comes to defending. A and B can be incredibly difficult to recover when the attacking team are on the point, while C is very easy to defend in general with so much cover around the point. Even with this though, I still find the points fun to play around! As for the theme it's creative and executed well! Some areas can feel a little empty (not asking for prop spam or anything but a touch more detail might go a long way), nevertheless it's an awesome map to fight in. The cards were well done, no real complains aside from gameplay card #7, it MIGHT be a reason A's so hard to hold once the point's contested but I think there's solutions to it that keep the room size.
Going for a unique gamemode like this and pulling it off nicely is impressive! It's not everyone's style, but it's certainly mine. Visually, man, this map is so pretty. I just think the skybox isn't quite up to par compared to the map - well placed, definitely, but it's noticeably lower quality than the map itself. I'm not sure if that's something that can be fixed though. The cards worked well enough, though with detailing #5, I agree that it's a little vague.
Even though they're only there for traversal the cannons are very cool! A and B are pretty good points to play around with, though C leaves a lot to be desired. Overall you've managed to make a pretty vertical map fun to play around (mostly), and that's commendable. In general it does look quite nice (really appreciate some of the moving elements like the water mill), mostly polished with a few exceptions. Not too fond of the theme - European is quite vague and gives off many different styles and locations. Having your map be Degroot but near water works fine, but it's a bit underwhelming. Gameplay cards were a mixed bag: #14 definitely detracts from the map, though #15 is a cool idea. I do mostly like #3 but it might be a little too punishing to low health classes. Detailing cards were fine, just not remarkable.
All 4 quadrants offer fun gameplay, the map layout's cool, just good fun. My only complaint is that due to the quadrants being so small (making it easy for a team to cover all entrances to mid), unbalanced teams can become REALLY unbalanced, and though rounds only last for 2 minutes each there's been moments where a team hasn't been able to touch the point a single time. That can feel pretty rough, but I don't think it's too big a problem with a map that feels as competitive as this. The entire map is visually cohesive yet allows each quadrant to stand out. Details like signs are a really nice touch, helping sell the theme. With cards, 2 separate features netting 4 cards is kinda cheeky, but hey, it works so I can't complain.
Pretty good, though there's a few areas that could do with tweaking a bit (particularly Stage 2). With some polishing to both the gameplay and detailing this could be a very cool map! Can say on the detailing though that this feels very authentic to TF2's maps while standing out as unique. Keep working on this, it's a rad map! The cards were mostly fine - gameplay #12 was a cool idea but it's a little buggy, prone to getting people stuck at times. Think you could've gone for more detailing cards.
For a medieval map with no gimmicks it honestly plays pretty well! Visually nice, and I appreciate some of the details added to help with the theme. I do wish you did more with the cards though, the detailing cards are fine I suppose but the gameplay cards were a bit underwhelming - two of them were just easy adopts from Degroot.
A's point area is a bit odd when it comes to defending but B and C are practically flawless imo. For how plain the theme is you've done a really good job making each point stand out - this definitely feels like it belongs in the game. Aside from one or two spots you've done a good job with making a visible night-time map! As for the cards, gameplay #3 feels a little out of place to me but the rest are pretty good (and I think you've used the limitations of gameplay #11 and #15 to make B really shine, that point is so cool to fight around and feels very unique). The bridge is very well done, though the valley could've been a bit better. You maybe could've gone for more detailing cards, but I don't mind much.
Generally pretty fun! S2 CP2 is sadly not on the same level as the other points though, it feels awkward to traverse and gives defenders an extremely powerful, short route to flank and harass attackers with. It's a shame the detailing isn't finished - there's a style here I really like, though I feel that S1 CP2 is a little lacking past the train (not a very exciting last point visually) and I honestly don't know what kind of building S2 CP2 is meant to be. The cards were pretty mixed - for gameplay, #7 I think negatively impacts the last point, and possibly #10 allowing the short route to exist. Detail cards were fine, but a bit lacking. That aside, I want to see this map finished
Still not enjoyable for me - the layout going from spawn to points often leads one team (usually blu) to camp the indoor point, since it is so closed in and easy to defend (points might be close together, but there's a huge wall of doors making access to the indoor point extremely dangerous, and red's flank entry into that point is a lot easier to camp than blu's). This leads to incredibly stagnant gameplay. The boost pads were an interesting concept, though I feel like they weren't quite used well enough to warrant them existing - sometimes there's a bit of fun to be had, but generally it's awkward trying to fight with them around in most areas. On a nicer note, yeah. Map's gorgeous as hell. Might be a touch too flashy? Idk man, can't really complain. On the cards, got no qualms with the detailing cards but those gameplay cards... even though invalid, #10 might've been the most damaging card to this map. #3's hazards too, I'm struggling to count the torches as actual hazards - you have to intentionally jump onto them, and they're pretty out of the way. Rest were fine.
Just a great map. Fun to play, pretty well detailed in most places, and uses cards pretty well. Always looked forward to being on this one!
This one is definitely one of the more unique entries, I really enjoyed the gameplay and overall design. Card usage could have been improved gameplay-wise, but design usage is great.
Beautiful map and novel idea, the gameplay just needs a few tweaks, and it can be confusing to navigate. Very good use of cards, however.
What would be a solid medieval mode map on its own is elevated (quite literally) by the presence of the cannons. Pretty solid map overall, with really fun and unique areas around each point. Card usage is also solid.
Interesting concept, though not all maps work super well. The stage with the sawblade is definitely my favorite, though unfortunately this suffers from a gameplay bug. All in all effective, though.
Not bad overall, just needs some polish. Elevator in S1 is buggy, and detailing needs a little extra something to make it stand out. I do love the train in the distance, though!
Gameplay is not bad for medieval, it just feels too close to DeGroot for my liking. Looks pretty good on the whole, though.
Got to play this one a little bit less than others, but the B point still sticks in my head. While divisive, I think it really made this map stand out. Pretty solid overall!
Gameplay is really fun, and the cards are used well. While the detailing that's there is pretty effective, it unfortunately is lacking in the second stage. With some finishing, this could shape up to be a really fun map!
I've warmed to this map a little, but it still feels like the fighting is too spread out. I do like the boost pads, and the detailing is great, it just needs some fixes to the overall layout to really let it excel.
Personally, I don't really feel qualified to judge the detail or card usage too closely.
As a long-time player (11k hours, woo) I do have a large focus on gameplay - so expect my detail scores to follow my gameplay impressions - when I think detail I think how off-putting were aesthetics, did they actively compete for my attention or distract me from the situation? Did I have a hard time following the flow of the map, the enemy expected locations, or even their silhouettes?
I ended up playing each final version of the map at least twice, even though this is effectively an hour with each map, I definitely feel it wasn't enough time for me to really have deep musings on the maps - and I'm certain my opinions and scores are affected by my subjective experience.
(chouhen) My first playthrough I definitely had an "I don't like this" impression which turned into a 180 of "I GET IT NOW" way (Not the mechanics, that was pretty straightforward, the flow and what/where I should be)
(lamworth) My experiences on lamworth as attack were not sufficiently frustrating for how difficult I believe some of the points are to push. I think if I have the chance I'd like to try this map with the defending team playing quite tryhard as I likely have a more positive impression of the points than I should
(underway/thalassophobia) These maps were definitely negatively impacted by the fact I had played them before and viewed their current final iteration versus the earlier one as a gameplay step-back. To me this seems like a very unfair reason to have a more negative impression of a map (I played it in testing and am PERSONALLY not happy with the direction of development?) but it certainly has significantly affected my impression of gameplay on the map.
(seige/shanks) I am not the audience for this gamemode as it is quite literally feeding yourself into a grinder on cooldown. As such I will likely under-rate them - I wish I could rate the map on its merits relative to their innovations on a gamemode, but realistically my knowledge and experience in this area is weak versus the base game.
I was going to record videos for each, but I ended up losing the willpower to do so as prior to recording a feedback/impressions video I ended need sometimes up to another hour of walkthroughs for each map to collect my thoughts.
It feels selfish admitting that despite the weeks/months of effort mapmakers put into their maps I can't spare more time, but I already played the maps quite late and I'm already submitting this ballot quite last minute....
I will say if my feedback makes sense or if the mapmakers are genuinely interested in having a discussion over my impressions, points, and seeking further advice/insights please reach out to me over discord (FlipFTW#0777). I am very open to walking through and discussing points in detail for those interested.
MAP
Overall Gameplay (score out of 10)
Gameplay Card Usage (score out of 10)
Overall Detailing (score out of 10)
Detailing Card Usage (score out of 10)
pl_desolation_b3a_bugfix
8.5
6
8
9
cp_thalassophobia_b5i_fix_2
5
6
7
8
ctf_chouhen_b5a
8
8
7
8
cp_siege_b2
6
7
7
7
koth_splinter_b4
4
6
7
6
pl_conclave_b6b
5
6
6
5
cp_shanksgiving_b6
4
5
6
5
cp_underway_b2
6.5
7
7
7
cp_lamworth_a12
7
8
7.5
7
pd_azureworld_b1
4
5
4
5
In general.... B and C were noted as problematic push points. B doesn't have a good attacker staging area coupled with a red forward hold, think requiring essentially spawncamping to cap this point isn't very good. C has "THE CORNER" but I actually believe many problems with this point are related to red routing to the point (funneling them to high ground). Blue routes could use minor adjustment.
Think framework of map is good and am optimistic about tweaking map balance without bringing out nukes/bulldozers. Would love to have a further discussion with mapmaker on how to rework areas (my ideas are still quite half baked, and I need to have an understanding for how they envision the points being played).
As mentioned this map definitely suffered from in some effect my personal preference for an earlier version/variant. Overall I think the layout relies on distant attacking flanks that often feed into narrow passageways (Particularly B and especially C). Deceptively the "Flanks" see more action than the main routes and are often more stuff-able too. This sort of inverse design ends up with the main areas often times feeling empty. Personally I struggled a lot with trying to understand the "purpose" of a route - what in particular geometrically or post-door does the attacker gain to incentivize a rotation?
I hesitate to say the layout needs redesigning for a map that has already been developed and refined quite a bit, but in particular I find the routes into B to be very disconnected (long rotation for attacker, short defense rotation that still views all routes to point) and the 4 options on C very disconnected. (None of the flank routes enable the main to be usable, rotating TO the main big door from the flank routes is very awkward (180 & drop down).
WARNING - LOUD - I ADJUSTED MY AUDIO THE WRONG WAY
I list out my criticisms early into the video, I think video comes off as overly harsh because I actually genuinely had a fun time on the map. On subsequent playthroughs I am mildly interested in how the "meta" will develop, but while its still quite new it's engaging and interesting, and relatively well balanced.
Ok, I generally dislike medieval and when people map for it, but I will say I think Siege avoids all the pitfalls that typically make me loath other maps. Because of the cannon, there isn't as much of a gulf between high-mobility and low-mobility classes. Despite there being a large no-mans land - little action goes on here and the routes up to high ground are quite defined/convenient.
I'd complain about the cannon resulting in there being a large highground over the defensive last, but actually there is a defender cannon that "counters" that problem.
I'd even say there is more incentive to "leave" the last wall and harass A/B as there is some health scattered about and a good idea of where to expect attackers from (How there is an aspect of a front line despite there being cannons launching people around the map is beyond me)
Would I play this map over degroot keep - at least currently, definitely.
I'm assuming being unable to block the A/B caps is an and not a design decision but rather an error in the logic, I do think they should be blockable - the attacking team has a lot of favors in being able to take them already.
A very aggressive concept, mapping for 4 asymmetric points. I wish I could like it more but in terms of balance I just feel like it's not altogether there. The series of points have a flanking and "arena koth" design aspect I thoroughly dislike. In general I'm reminded of Shounic's "Panic Koth" experiment in which he accidently discovered the crucial difference between Area and Koth design - when enabling players to bypass the point and get to the enemy spawn to camp - they will take this option, and on Splinter that feels heavily incentivized via the pack placement and geometry.
There also seems to have been an emphasis on reducing some sniper sightlines, but this has come at the great cost of lacking visibility for other classes (blind corner flanks all around)
I also didn't really understand the point placement its one thing to disincentivize a point placement you fight over, but at times the point felt actively out of the way. This feeds into the area-style design, where the point isn't an emphasis or focusing element.
Ultimately:
Point is not the focus of the map (Encouraging Flankers)
Geometry that favors flankers (Easy escapes, deep infiltrations)
Geometry that favors defenders (Tight chokes or exposed doors when re-entering point, no staging areas)
For me to really enjoy gameplay on this map I feel there would need to be significant balance reworks. I would be interested in seeing if there are any statistics on how often the rounds ended up "rolling" with one team hardly touching points. I'm unsure how the team behind this map managed to collect feedback for an break down any data for 4 stages, but I'm hoping the team sticks with the idea and continues to flesh out the map vs abandoning it.
I was in a playtest where someone said "There's something about this map that makes me feel depressed" to which I answered (humorously) "It's the long deeply penetrating flanks".
Traditionally I like payload for pub gameplay, I think the slow-moving cart provides a solid catch-up mechanics that gives a delayed representation of a front line. Front lines are not possible any further forward than the deepest penetrating flank, and this map has no shortage of flanks that lead significantly behind where you would expect to hold.
This leads to very un-engaging combat (watchin the one-way shutter, players suddenly appearing behind you...)
I definitely left this feedback on a playtest of this map months ago, and feel somewhat justified in that criticism.. Ultimately the flank and main route should have a "dance" - the main route is too hard to push by itself, but if the flank is won it enables the choke somehow, this can be
There is also little in the way of significantly rotating to other attacker routes. If the flank WAS stuffed, the rotation to attack a different direction is much too long.
Also the rollout is very long for the last point, could certainly use a forward spawn for attackers as the teleporter is probably the most important pick a spy could get.
Worst route offenders -
the right hill path outside of blu spawn is difficult to watch, can easily be used to get behind and even camp spawn/players rolling out if wanted
the one-way shutter room continuously dumping players significantly behind the active point with little more than a drive-by glance to even know they might be going behind
The poorly telegraphed cliff route that can also be used by defenders to get stupidly far behind
So, I mentioned before that I both don't like medieval and that I think there are many pitfalls. This map is quite loooooong with no way to really traverse the distance. As a result playing less mobile classes is suffering. Then even if you are playing a mobile class inside the castle there is little room to actually be mobile. There are a lot of props that actually get in the way of gameplay space - the central last bonfire is a good example of a prop that is annoying to play around rather than fun. I also am more irritated than I probably should be at getting "stuck" between two of the woodenpikes.
Ultimately, its not innovative to me and doesn't really speak for nor make a convincing argument for the strong points of the gamemode.
I feel bad that I played a prior version of this map and preferred gameplay on its 2nd more.
Biggest issue I have with the map would be the 2nd. The red primary route feeds into the blu "staging area"?... if that area is intended to be a staging ground. If it isnt then there is no significant blu staging round making it easy for red to harass and hard for blu to mass up for a push.
The geometry in general actually favors the attacking team ignoring 80% of the map and simply feeding into the low ground.
I also have issue with the gameplay on last, as I view it to be quite non-engaging, but details in video.
I did notice several detail elements my mind immediately jumped to thinking were taboo (how to get rockets eaten geometry), but this is certainly over nitpicky and not the focus of the contest or category.
Overall, I think it could use more balancing work, but was still quite enjoyable to play.
I am quite convinced that I have a significantly more positive impression of this map compared to how I should - as in the points on paper should be quite brutal to push (especially last stage last point), but I've been wrong in the playtests I've been involved in. I theorize its a lack of significant tryhards on the defensive team but regardless -
Ultimately the rounds I played felt remarkably fun and balanced - I had a fun time pushing and defending, overall the gameplay space has simple enough structures and geometry that I rarely found myself annoyed by pop-up players and directions of combat.
I take slight issue with some of the blind infiltrating flanks, sometimes with the verticality its hard to tell when someone is below/behind you, and I am not a fan of full health packs in general combat spaces (Full health packs should be used very rarely, and never in combat). I also think that for the 1st stage VERTICAL combat is not where TF2 excels, and the bridge route is probably the weakest element of the whole map (gameplay wise - graphically its really stunning).
As one detail note - the first stage 2nd point's large bridge flank was very awkward both to counter (spam/rotate to stuff) & to recognize (they can come from there?!!). I also think the "wait" mechanic is quite poor/awkward, where the slow opening gates -> makes it hard to retreat as defender -> actually results in some people wandering off and holding doors that they don't realize there is a massive flank behind them at.
You really have to do your work to convince me why I should like PD. The 2nd time I played this map it devolved exactly into my nightmare scenario where:
One team had control of one side (w/ 1 zone)
One team had control of other side (w/ 1 zone)
The funny thing is - when you're "losing" in pd it respawns you quicker meaning the team already winning began to win more because the players feeding just having fun (not playing objective) helped the enemy team win FASTER by having a lower respawn.
Anyway - this has always been the problem with PD. Similar to passtime there is a problem of incentive to attack, see the 50/50 problem (Attacking and simultaneously defending in pubs) & the problem of possession (it's similar to soccer)
Basically - no reason to take risks ever with collectables, -> when I have a lot of deposits the optimal play is to camp near spawn luring people to overextend and wait until the zone is basically secured by team. If zone isn't safe just wait another cycle... this is boring for everyone involved.
Anyway Anyway - I suggest having a source of collectables outside of killing players, as another "winning" play I theorized would be to basically have everyone camp spawn, and map control isn't needed to get points, only to deposit them, this is problematic for giving players a reason to traverse and control map prior to pushes.
Detail wise, for a map as chaotic as this while chaos might fit the theme simplicity is NEEDED to balance it out. Between the water ruining outlines, getting stuck on beach props, and jungle leaves in my face the detail does not help serve the gameplay.
I would have liked to see a stronger statement on why PD can be fun, overall map feels visually unique, but frustrating to play.
It's an hour till, fuck it we ball. I have thoughts for all these but they're kinda jumbled up and all over the place. Please message me if you have questions!
Reasoning and Feedback available upon request (just ping me on the Discord Server). I will preface any such reasoning with saying I'm not 100% confident with my voting about Card Usage for most maps since a lot of cards were basic things like three objectives and spawns not moving which is hard to judge how well they were used, y'know? I had to go with gut feeling with those while for the Overall voting I could compare each map and say "Would I rather play X or Y?" or "Is X better detailed than Y?", so some maps maybe should of had higher or lower scores. I would have been happier just reviewing Overall Gameplay and Detailing and having card usage factor into those scores but here we are...
Though I have just a little update for Splinter too.
I'm sure you've heard this already, but it's gorgeous - I only wish it were all connected together, even with doors that choose randomly which area is next accessible. The abrupt ending to the good flow makes the map much harder to continuously enjoy and stunts its potential.
The map has great vibes! However, if we pretend the detailing is all gone, we can see at least one very major flaw: the teams do not have any reason to meet. Each team can camp out one objective zone, and this is what happened every round I played it. The zones should at least turn on/off over time. They should not be campable. Make the players move! Upon further inspection, there's no real flow of chokes and holds. I do love the indoor areas, but the outdoor area is way too open and it leads to random deathmatch gameplay. There are no structures to shepherd groups of players to move in any particular direction or take up residence in any particular area and this is most true on the beach area on the outside of the bridge: there's just no cover at all and it's a wide open field of dying. The parts where there are good flow is amongst the interiors and the alleyway in the back which I sadly never found any use for. My advice would be to fully enclose the sides of the bridge so it becomes a room (add some windows); and then add huts and fences on the beach area so that it creates a mandatory routing structure. Height variation would also be very welcome in the beach area. I like the detailing though I really question the use of added noise into the textures; one can look at nearby stock textures and see no noise at all. Nevertheless, I think the map looks pretty good. I'd just also change out the island foliage for some brighter foliage in one of the resource packs (Greek Pack for instance). The speedramps are really unfun when there's any lag, and they're often just used to traverse horizontally. I would very much rather walk, but what would be far better is strategic ramp-launch ones exclusively.
You'll notice an edit time on this post: it is to my own benefit, but I think it's reasonable to give myself the same sort of grace period that Switchgeer was given since I am a contest planner. Please don't kill me!
Public voting for Major Contest #18: Stack the Deck is now closed.
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