CP Hella b1

[tyler]

Taking B isn't impossible but the constant uphill battle is a pain in the arse as BLU, especially when the exits through the A-B connecter are so far away and leaves BLU open to being counter-flanked if the tele exits take them to a forward position on one route only. I lost my tele' entrances more than i did my exits. The fact that BLU have to double back on themselves to climb up to B also doesn't help.

Usually it's actually much easier. I blame the second forward spawn combined with some respawn timers that I forgot to change a bit. In fact, judging from tests of the map without that second forward, I'm almost certain I could solve it just with spawn timers.

If you didn't notice you need to stop BLU spawn camping RED at B. It's much easier to just skip past B which is a pain in the arse to access and go straight to the source of the problem; taking out tele exits, spawn camping a bit and then flanking the strong SG position behind B.

Yeah, product of thinking about that for about 30 seconds max.

C also has really excessive sightlines split only periodicly by yellow barrels. Much of the combat at last was rocket/flare spam at sentries and snipers. Medics couldn't even get close without using the uber as cover and hoping they weren't swamped when it wore off. I killed my fair share of medics even as engineer when they were trying to pop ubers late to swamp dispenser/sentry nests effectively.

Yeah, I'm continuously trying to work on this. The area is only about the size of Well's last or Gorge's second, but it doesn't play remotely the same.

Giving BLU 2 large ammo packs 512 units apart at A also seems a bit much.

In the shed and outside the center house? Without those, it's somehow incredibly easy for Red to push them back really, really far. I know it seems odd, but the attack on A plays the same but without Red's push back after it's capped.

This map is a pain in the ass.

 

[grazr]

Well, the first full ammo is 512 units between another full ammo and a respawn locker in the spawn. You could probably compromise for a medium in the hut which sits between the locker and forward full ammo, it's just that having 2 large ammo that close together feels like it was an oversight or that the map has larger issues here that these were a hotfix for (which i guess is semi-true). Providing BLU with another exit on the left and access to some high ground would allow BLU to hold some ground outside their spawn gates. Fighting through A and B is entirely an uphill battle so it's no surprise that RED can counter-attack so aggressively with relatively little effort involved.

As for C, bare in mind that the areas in gorge and well which you cited are relatively large and suffer from similar issues. You could cut LoS up with I-beams that run vertical, this really messes with the more active and aggressive snipers as you can strafe left and right to keep these between you and them. From these you can extend/raise low walls or fences or even rudimentary rooms without ceilings.

One of the problems i feel that apply to all your buildings is that you have large doorways with no walls behind them, which put large portions of the interiors on show. These essentially cause the exposed rooms to become a part of the exterior play area, adding 512-1028 units at a time from one far wall to another. It makes it difficult to find good gear locations for engi's as they're constantly vulnerable to rocket/grenade spam, but just as importantly make it hard to rush from as you're immediately exposed. A prime example is in that RED have only 1 viable SG spot to cover A; this is also true for B (although the tower is a neat place for a mini-sentry it never tends to do anything more than annoy people and is easily taken out before any kills are achieved).

Some food for thought about C: Rather than have really sweaping flanks, do what badlands does at last; an entrance into the area at a central location that allows the attackers to stay together and give them the option of flanking left or right from there. This stops BLU splitting up into small groups for pincer attacks (which are very hard to coordinate) which then have to deal with a solid defence of an entire team.

 

[tyler]

I almost made C more like Badlands, but it didn't turn out that way when I went and laid down the brushes. I definitely continue to plan ways to go towards that idea. Badlands works very well in that regard.

Truthfully, I can't say I am terribly hurt that engineers don't have a good setup spot anywhere. If anyone disagrees a whole lot please let me know, but I find both that randomly placed sentries are more interesting and that fighting fluidly (ie, without sentries) is a lot more fun and rewarding to the player. If you have ideas for modifications for me to make that can increase the versatility of sentry placement without really bogging down what I see as interesting and fun fights, please let me know. I'd probably be willing to try it. What I tend to find is that very few players (if any) ever complain about this.

Thanks for your feedback, though, because you're like the only person that seems to care, and it's nice to have the counterpoint. I don't want to sound like I am shooting you down. I sympathize, but I like what I have more. Ideally I want both.

 

[grazr]

Well my concern wasn't so much that 1 sentry position isn't enough for an A/D map "because A/D should be a case of systematic sentry nest destruction" but more so that it becomes a boring routine for both attack and defense when it is only 1; and that without a sentry nest in the same 1 point that the defense tends to fall apart in half the time. This was especially true for B whereby BLU gained control of the control point structure 3 times but were thwarted by a sentry/tele nest behind it which resulted in a further 60-120 second defence of that point.

Why this is important is providing options means the defense can be not only more fluid and unpredictable but that your gameplay remains fresh and has replay value. If a sentry wont last people wont play engi and this is something of an imbalance; whilst it's not so much of an issue for 5CP which is a very dynamic playing field and only sees half the classes played in competitive play anyway, A/D is not 5CP. A skilled player is a constant but a sentry nest is a variable and provides opportunities, especially for support classes like spy. If adds more options and experiences for players.

What you also need to take into consideration is that without a good sentry spot dispensers don't last very long which also weakens any mobile defense. A and B are relative walks in the park (even if B is a major pain in the arse to approach) and i wouldn't hesitate to blame the inability for engineers to perform any real area denial; unfortunately engi's defending via sentry nests is a fact of A/D life and is a simple and obvious solution to some of your problems (though i understand you wish for some innovative A/D gameplay).

Prestige said the map was very scout and soldier friendly, which is probably a result of the lack of any defensive area denial. It also meant players could reach where they weren't supposed to; like spawn exits. It was a number of times he had rocket jumped past BLU at C and to their spawn. The problem of not having any sentry positions for RED is that it's a shared issue for BLU; hence why RED can so easily counter-attack and gain lost territory. BLU usually inhabit the connecters with their gear, but this is just not a viable option on Hella because of the consistent medium to long ranges, large chokes and winding flanks.

Even just some smaller doorways that form tougher chokes would allow engineers to hold up inside a structure for longer. It'd make counter-attacking BLU more difficult, defending simpler and easier and provide more gameplay options and variety.

I have a feeling you're seeing a lot of anomolies because of no effective area denial and variable player skill levels; those are only some of the causalities and symptons as a result of the layout design.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I'll be updating this as I play/run through the map...

To start though: This cap area is too small. It really needs to be bigger...
The way you have it set up now, its hard for an engie to build to protect the point, either make the sides a bit more deep (and jesus, not curved) and have a little nook or 2 for engies to hide themselves and sentries in. Since you then would create a place for strong sentry nests, why not make a multi-level cap zone that spreads down below. Again, there would be some places for sentries (not as strong) but something like this would keep the relative shape/flow of the area, while allowing for red to defend better.

Something else you could add is little balconies around that loop around the building (as in, balconies on the main building around CP2). This would give red height advantage and better ways to attack.


NOW, for your last point, what I was trying to say in chat before doom pointed out the obvious...

What it feels like for pt C is that you are trying to make basically somehting like Nucleus's point (YES DOOM I KNOW ITS KOTH), but you can still pull idea for how to keep the open, yet covered. You could also try Mtn. Lab final, that is open, but veristile. I think the main issue with your current final(s) is that they are all too open. CP1 and 2 are both in closed areas, whereas C is just this big open battle field. after having to fight through the maze of rooms between B and C.

Which brings me to part 3: what you have is fine between B and C, but you have a couple of "dead" rooms, where you can access them from above 2 ways, and lower only 1. People will reach the lower part first, so naturally you'd think that shuold have 2 entrances, rather than 1 with a dead end.

 

[Harribo]

Feedback on cp_hella_a6f

I think some of your no entry doors which unlock when certain CPs are captured are in the wrong places and unlock at the wrong times. They limit how much engie can set up early which is why i think the last point blue roll so easily.
While Red are defending A i think here:

should be shut aswell as here:

or instead of shutting the 2nd door I think putting the 1st forward spawn here:

right in front of the walkway to cp2 and move those stairs to the right, this means the side door in the 2nd pic will be used by red's leaving spawn. I also think having the spawn there wil be better for defenders because then they will be forced to walk through cp2 and the area around giving them a better idea for the layout when defending later and also it looks nice ascetically having the large walkway facing something in the main building, at the moment the spawn positioning mean red kind of side step the cp2 area and walk down the side of the cliff to A.

At the moment once A is capped these doors are still locked:
1.

2.

and 3.

the other locked door facing opposite door No.1 I don't have a Problem with

These doors are obviously there to stop access to C for Blue but door No.1 is completely useless and can just be walked around to access the walkway to the upper area, also of note the upper area outside of door No.3 is a great place for blue to spawn camp Red's 2nd spawn from and can easily been snuck into using the the side route with the dropdown into red's main building. Some windows here:

might help stop that as much.

I also think by keeping all these doors locked until the 2nd point is really hinders red from falling back to prepare for defending CP3, especially engies. I would suggest leaving door 2 unlocked as blue would have to pass red's spawn anyway to get through there, also reworking the walkway to the upper area by door No.1 so it isn't as easily accessible to blue and adding those windows will help stop people sneaking past.

There are also some large sniper lines that look straight onto red last spawn:

My problem with these is not so much the distance there is between the sniper and said area, cp_gorge's last has just as large sightlines, it's the fact that they lie directly into the area infront of the spawn doors, as like gorge I think this could do with having a small well covered room with a couple of exits infront of the spawn doors so this isn't as much of a problem.

Also the lack of any higher ground for red around last makes it very little fun to defend, my suggestion would be to have maybe one or both of the upper areas drawn, sorry about how bad they are drawn, im finding it really hard to show depth (the 2nd one is better)

 

[owly-oop]

I think you remember mostly what I told you ingame, and most of it was said more than once not by me.


A unique complaint I have is point A. No other official tf2 map has a major 180-degree turn like this. A is a grind around this corner, since there is always red setting up behind the wall. The red spot markes the center of the 180degree turn and it is a death spot. All of the spam from the constant grind goes over it. I made orange and yellow circles to make it cool. Yea.

My suggested would to move the door back or something, and/or have something block the visibility from the point and door, around where the green wall is. It doesn't have to be a wall, nor does it have to be green. This will allow blu to put pressure on the point without being instantly killed from that doorframe. red can easily defend the point from it right now.

 

[grazr]

Actually i have to disagree about that sentry spot. It is the only viable sentry location for RED; yet despite it's predictable influence on gameplay it can't actually shoot anyone on the point as the control point is out of range. Also, RED never actually defend from the point as they are so exposed, have no health or ammo or even medic support (because of being so exposed), the 180 degree issue is a smoke screen.

The sentry point in question can be taken out by 2 indirect stickies without any team support; unless the SG is directly behind the wall, in which case it can be by-passed by BLU as its range doesn't reach the far edge of the map and can be taken out by simple rocket spam.

Irrespective of anything Super' or I have said, i've never actually seen A successfully defended so i'm keen to point out no additional nerfs to RED defencive positions are necassery at all and the position in question serves only as a delay to an uncoordinated BLU team.

 

[owly-oop]

Actually i have to disagree about that sentry spot. It is the only viable sentry location for RED; yet despite it's predictable influence on gameplay it can't actually shoot anyone on the point as the control point is out of range. Also, RED never actually defend from the point as they are so exposed, the 180 degree issue is a smoke screen.

The sentry point in question can be taken out by 2 indirect stickies without any team support; unless the SG is directly behind the wall, in which case it can be by-passed by BLU as its range doesn't reach the far edge of the map and can be taken out by simple rocket spam.

I was mainly talking about the amount of spam that goes around that corner, not really concerned about sentries.

 

[tyler]

At this point I've seen everything defended to completion on multiple versions of the map. Since A and the area before it rarely changes if ever, I think it's okay. Super raises a salient point about spam on that stairwell, but I might have an idea to solve it differently since his solution involves encumbering the arena.

Other comments on the rest tomorrow or whenever.

If anyone has stuff they are preparing let me know or I'll probably award someone their feedback prize tomorrow night.

 

[Regularjoe]

Here's a proposal on how to make point A defendable.

Here's how A looks now:

Red has very little height advantage, and the two buildings closest to spawn are very easy to climb. Red is almost always pushed back to defending the point. The conveniently located health means blu do not have to retreat while spamming around the corner. Once blu gets on the point, they have a clear line of sight of all ways they can be attacked, so it is very hard to get them off the point.

Here's how I'd fix it:

First of all, I'd move blu spawn back and closed off the front doors of the buildings. I closed off the building that only had ammo completely. Now if blue wants to get into the buildings, they have to get all around to the back of the buildings. This allows for a secondary sentry spot, although a risky one, because it does not cover the point. By hiding in the buildings, red may be able to hold a forward sentry nest.

Second of all, I added a small path along the ravine to get around this choke. It is pretty risky (being near a cliff, and providing very little cover), but it offers a way to get behind the sentry.

I moved the control point from the round balcony to the middle of the courtyard, so standing on the point is more of a risk. I put a spytech lazer on the balcony and moved the healthpack there, making it so people still have a reason to go on the balcony, but do run a risk of being ambushed. I also added a little cover right before the balcony, to give the defenders someplace to put a ninja sentry or dispenser.

And that's what I got. Sounds good?

 

[tyler]

Frozen: B's capture area will become larger, no one likes that the way I do. Maybe I'm not doing it right but whatever. I'm going to change the inner structure a bit.

Harribo: You're right, doors are fucked. As for C, I'm not sure height advantage for Red is what's needed, but I think you're pretty close.

Super I addressed last night.

Joe: Some of that could be a good idea, some of it I don't agree with. A will never move off that balcony, it's the money shot I base the map around. Maybe it's a fatal flaw, I don't care, it's the only piece of the map I feel plays alright. Some of your other ideas actually make a bit of sense to me and I may test a few out.

In the end Moose wins the feedback prize for something very simple he said to me in chat last night. He, like Super, chose Skyrim. God damn nerds. Thanks guys, this and everything everyone else said was really valuable. I know some people think endurance tests are useless, but I really got a lot out of it.

 

[AyesDyef]

I shall mention flipping/mirroring B onwards, so that blu turn right instead of left, it adds more cross-area play in B's area.

The large building near A is good for a forward sentry base, so I think it might be a good idea having Blu cut across diagonally, then following a wall and disappearing.

A little bit weird to describe without having a picture, I'll draw one up in a minute.

Oh, and it's more like a relocation of C, not a "new" C some people were thinking.

 

[Sergis]

what ive noticed is every point you have is being defended mostly from behind the point, requiring attackers to push past the point to get the sentries. usually the defense is more concentrated at the point and in front of it

 

[Regularjoe]

Hella could look hella good with spytech on the balcony.

 

[tyler]

I don't think so. First it's too flimsy. I'd have to rethink the balcony. Second that's a dumb place for a laser. Third it ruins the detail progression to have a laser or satellite right there in the playable space. Not happening, bro.

 

[Yacan1]

Hella could look hella good with spytech on the balcony.

 

[Wilson]

Uhh... okay.
What does this have to do with Hella?

 

[Yacan1]

Uhh... okay.
What does this have to do with Hella?

re:legs&hella dish

 

[tyler]

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