Hella

CP Hella b1

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tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
So I'm working on adding a forward spawn above the buildings between A and B. I'm also adjusting a couple timers, adding pickups, adjusting pickups, and changing one timer. I removed a window Leminnes didn't like.

Anything else for a5?
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
cp_hella_a5

a5:
changed cover placement at C
added a forward spawn for blu
fixed red spawn doors
modified and added a lot of pickups
changed some geometry in little ways

cp_hella_a50002.jpg

cp_hella_a50001.jpg

cp_hella_a50000.jpg
 

Moose

L6: Sharp Member
Nov 4, 2009
312
616
haven't played yet, but so far the changes look good.

Will your particles work now
 
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grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
There seems to be lacking sentry positions. The map is so open and with many windows/doorways that sentries go down to long distance fire very easily. The best an engineer can help his team is by building dispensers behind CP positions for the team to heal up at from cover, there is little capacity for actual area denial. Much of an engineers life is spent skirmishing to make sure players cannot assault his support gear.

The final point ledge is also a bother for offence. Although sentry positions here don't have a totally direct LoS to the point (the 2 walls can by hidden behind by cappers) it still poses a threat that is not easily removed as pyro's cannot assault them and spies cannot zap them; it is inaccessible by non-jump perk classes or effectively assaulted by classes without weapons with indirect fire (grenades).

The wide open space and multiple flanking routes around CP3 might be considered good attack possibilities in theory but serve to seperate small teams and prevent BLU from holding any forward position before assaulting the CP. Plus any forward position that does get held is stuck to a single flank whereby RED can counter attack their spawn and teleporter entrances leaving the BLU assault force incredibly vulnerable and without reinforcement; reseting BLU progress. The same issue that RED had with long sight lines is also an issue for BLU later in the maps progression. You should at least consider reducing RED's capacity to counter attack and re-take ground by making more drop-down's for BLU.

It's also generally fiddly to get to the final point because BLU approach the CP structure-ramps from an angle and the ramps are quite narrow.

EDIT: Oh, and on a final note. You have a ton of rocks in the river that aren't generally viewable by players. That's a lot of visual data (poly's, materials etc) being rendered/loaded into ones memory cache that rarely get seen. An impractical use of the performance budget. Players (from my observation) do not tend to stand on CP1 and no other points of the map can see this area; it is limited to people being airblasted over, or exploring and trying to jump onto the rocks. Which on another note, if you don't remove the rocks entirely (which you probably should) make it so it doesn't look like you can safely jump onto them. Lastly, you can get under the CP platform.
 
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Seba

DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD
aa
Jun 9, 2009
2,364
2,728
stop making maps better than advection
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
grazr I don't remember you playing this and anyway you're wrong, there are plenty of decent sentry spots if you know where to build and that's part of learning the map

you're right about rocks

not sure about the rest

haven't played yet, but so far the changes look good.

Will your particles work now

yes


stop making maps better than advection
believe me i'm not trying to
 
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grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
grazr I don't remember you playing this and anyway you're wrong, there are plenty of decent sentry spots if you know where to build and that's part of learning the map

I played it twice several weeks ago, I also played it tonight over at PS. I played as engineer. Almost all the decent spots that could actually "area deny" such as CP's or doorways got rocket spammed from a distance, until the last CP, where it was sniper spammed instead. When they weren't rocket spammed they were grenaded/stickied around corners or over ledges.

I've played enough hours of TF2, both against SG's and as engineer building them, to know what's a quality SG position just by looking at it; and i really couldn't find any that didn't have to be directly assaulted. Positions that were protected saw no player traffic.

CP1 is in the open and out of range from any covered position. CP2 is also open and without any LoS from the defencive side. SG's on the point can be circle strafed by pyro's/scouts or corner strafed by soldiers and demos. CP3 has more hidey holes for SG's, but the LoS of hidden SG's is such that they really don't make an impact and when not being generally ignored/ran past to the CP,they get zapped; meaning that they aren't that affective unless they're on the spawn ledge. You're far better off going scout and skirmishing all the demo's and soldiers on their travel from spawn.

I don't remember you playing this and anyway you're wrong

I must be wrong though, my opinion is arbitrarily invalid because you didn't see it.

You can take it with a pinch of salt or ignore it altogether at your own discretion but you shouldn't really tell people they're wrong because you merely doubt them.
 
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tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
Why did anyone play this tonight? Why wasn't I told? This is the kind of information that could be useful to me.

Several weeks ago was a radically different version, grazr, and some of your feedback is clearly coming from an a3 perspective

Anyway, I really hate sentry nests, and find that unpredictable defensive spots are a lot more interesting gameplay wise. Your feedback is in some cases valid, but I'm not sure I actually want to fix any part of it, so to speak. I also enjoy seeing where engineers can find to build without me specifically helping them, because it helps me see what parts of the map may need to be changed or modified pretty easily.

Also, don't think I'm ignoring you because I "don't see" where you're coming from. Not only am I not ignoring you, I thanked your feedback because I think it's a worthwhile opinion and I find your guides to be some of the most useful I've ever read. That doesn't mean I'm going to automatically agree, though. I have my opinions and you have yours. Don't get mad if I disagree with you. In fact, I relish your posts in my threads because they are thought out and informative. But I won't always agree right away.
 
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grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
Don't get mad if I disagree with you.

I didn't get mad because you disagreed i "got mad" because you were being a dick, saying "i was wrong" and "you didn't see me" so it "must be false". I don't mind if you ignore me but don't tell me i'm mistaken; that was the experience i had and you should realise this so you can make appropriate changes (if you feel like it).

We played the version with your particle affect. I'm assuming it wasn't a3 because of that - and the fact that everyone in the server (PS regulars) were commenting on how radically different the map was and how leminnes uploaded it "earlier" for the weekly draft.

There was an announcement, leminnes told you it was happening. Or at least implied it on the PS forums.
 
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tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
Oh, on Playstuff, that makes sense. I did know but forgot. In that case I'm taking it a bit more seriously.
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
Just toying with detailing.

Nmfls.jpg

97Mti.jpg


Going to move C around a fair bit, try some new ideas. A6 should be out in a year.
 

EArkham

Necromancer
aa
Aug 14, 2009
1,625
2,773
Hate to say it, but I'm not really crazy about "Hella" as the name of the mountain/map. It keeps reminding me of "hella good" (which I've never actually heard anyone say outside of South Park). I kinda get the impression that the naming is also making things awkward for you while creating overlays.

I was just browsing the wikipedia on Mount Saint Helens to get some ideas for an alternate name for you, but came up empty. Maybe "cp_summit" if it's not already taken. So I guess cp_hella is fine after all. :p

The map itself is looking pretty solid so far. Interesting geometry. Would need to play on it to give more feedback than that though.
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
maybe i should turn this into a l4d2 map

or a 5cp
 
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