Build Around The Track

littleedge

L1111: Clipping Guru
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Mar 2, 2009
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Alrighty so unless I seemany more people requesting a track change, I won't change it. The only people that generally post are those that complain. They want their voice heard, while the people who are fine with it just want to work with it and stay quiet because they're not paying attention to the thread. So if I get a bunch of people complaining, I might change it. But I need more than a few. I feel strongly about the "only people mad voice their opinion" philosophy.

I don't consider anybody's actions or words above to be derailing. It's good discussion, however it's starting to get out of hand. Take it to PM, please. Do understand the above paragraph and continue to critique/complain if you must though.
 

owly-oop

im birb
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Apr 14, 2009
819
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this will come out as rude littleedge but the track is pretty bad, how do you expect people to make a decent map around this

and it is a bad decision to include detailing into this, seriously deadline = october???
 
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lana

Currently On: ?????
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Sep 28, 2009
3,075
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The track shouldn't be physical, it should be path_tracks.

EDIT:

Say I submit three entries that win first, second, and third place. Then I get six prizes, right?
 
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Ravidge

Grand Vizier
aa
May 14, 2008
1,544
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I would use any track thrown at me, it's a competition about adapting to a set of constraints, in this case a track layout. Now it's the participants turn to solve the design challenges best they can.
This is not how people build maps normally, so it forces a lot of new thinking (and I hope creativity).

So far the only thing I'm really disagreeing with is the 2 month timelimit (way to long). But I think LE already knows what my opinion is on that. Many people will probably feel the layout is flawed from start and don't want to invest that kind of time in a project they will not enjoy. Which is why I suggested a much shorter deadline, so the focus is on solving problems the best way, not building the best map.
 
Sep 1, 2009
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I get the views on the track and the contest in general are greatly split. However in some strange manor abstract thinking is required for this contest , as well as people need to realise that the track doesn't have to be on 'ground' level.
 

Another Bad Pun

In the shadows, he saw four eyes lit by fire
aa
Jan 15, 2011
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I can see why everyone is saying the track layout is bad, but It's worked just fine for me so far. I don't see anything in it that can't be made up for.
 

Fraz

Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.
aa
Dec 28, 2008
944
1,152
I like the track if I'm honest. I was blustering earlier in chat about trying to get the base-work done but that's because slopes on sections of track at 45 degrees is just annoying. No matter what the track would be, you would never get a unanimous decision that the track is good enough. Plus, it'll be a fun challenge trying to fix the problems of the basic layout of the track without altering the track itself.
 

littleedge

L1111: Clipping Guru
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Mar 2, 2009
986
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Seriously. I hate having to say this but I swear half of you hate this, half of you don't.

We've got the people who realize that this contest is one of those where you have to think. You can't decide the main path. You have to ponder how to divide the areas of the cart, you have to think about where chokes should be, and all you're given is the path the cart will take.

We've got the people who fail to realize this. They complain about the track being terrible and not having room to do anything. Their inability to come up with something around the track.

This is okay. I don't care which group you fall into. If you just can't, that's okay - I personally have issues getting maps out in a testable state because I'm my worst critic. I'll make half a map and be like "Pfft this sucks." Maybe your brain just doesn't work in the way that is needed for this contest. There's AF and there will be more contests in the future. I'm honestly hoping Rexy gives us a second Orange Mapping Contest. You can do that.

Just for the sake of my sanity, I am not changing the track. I am not letting you fumble with it. You cannot mirror it, the start must be the start. If you do not like the track and don't think you can produce something worthwhile, I wish you'd spend more time and come up with something, because I want to host a successful contest.

This is a new idea, nobody has done a similar contest where the most important concept of a map is already made for you against your wishes, and you just need to put the brushes around so players can have fun and aren't floating around in the void. This is new, you're not used to it. If Valve gave us a new gamemode to have a contest for, it'd be the same. You'd complain, and the guys who didn't have anything to complain about would keep quiet and it would seem like it is a terrible contest and gamemode.

If you think you can do better, knock yourself out next year or next week. But think of the community as a whole before you do the latter.
 

owly-oop

im birb
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Apr 14, 2009
819
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Sorry but you can't expect people to make a decent layout from a track that just won't work, there is not enough room.


It doesn't take someone with ~superior intellect~ to make a map around a track, stop trying to make yourselves feel above the ones who don't like the track.

People won't participate because the map will not be decent because of the track. It almost ends where it starts and almost does a complete circle. There is not enough room for creativity.

You could simply rotate one of the peices and every peice of track after that 90 degrees and it would fix it btw, i thought that was obvious.
 

ardysqrrl

L4: Comfortable Member
Oct 26, 2009
173
159
the reason why contests like this suck aren't because of what we're given, it's because at the end of the contest we don't have a bunch of cool unique maps, we have subtle clones of the same map

that's cool though we don't give a FUCK lets all build the same thing

You may not mirror the track. That would be altering the track.
translation from X to Y isn't mirroring it's just expressing dimensions in another way

Either way I guess I won't submit my entry officially, but I'll still participate in this unofficially
 
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osiem

L2: Junior Member
Jan 25, 2011
89
137
Maybe I am somehow strange, but I have taken part in some contests and I have never came to people organizing the contest after it started and said 'hey, could you change rules/conditions/anything so I can do better/contest is better?'.

This is the contest, contests are about people trying to deal with the task that the people making contest have set. Littleedge has set the task - you deal with it. If you guys think it's shitty, just don't take part, where is your problem?
 

ardysqrrl

L4: Comfortable Member
Oct 26, 2009
173
159
Is there a rule that it has to be for TF2? I don't see that in the rules so I'm assuming this can be any source game
 

osiem

L2: Junior Member
Jan 25, 2011
89
137
I guess it's so obvious he didn't even think about it. And I'm sure you know it very well.
 

littleedge

L1111: Clipping Guru
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Mar 2, 2009
986
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You're right. There is no rule saying it has to be for TF2. However,

I gave examples of Barnblitz and Thundermountain. That's TF2.
Map must spawn 32 players. That's TF2.
Submission must be labeled pl_. It is a Payload map. That's TF2.
I suggested you use Snark's Resource Library. That's TF2.
You're on TF2Maps.net.

No need to be a dumbass.
 

JoshuaC

L420: High Member
Sep 2, 2008
444
164
You're right. There is no rule saying it has to be for TF2. However,

I gave examples of Barnblitz and Thundermountain. That's TF2.
Map must spawn 32 players. That's TF2.
Submission must be labeled pl_. It is a Payload map. That's TF2.
I suggested you use Snark's Resource Library. That's TF2.
You're on TF2Maps.net.

No need to be a dumbass.

So there's really no rule against it. Cool, thanks!
 

ardysqrrl

L4: Comfortable Member
Oct 26, 2009
173
159
ok gonna make a 16vs16 payload dods map using snark's prefabs

seriouspost how many people own dods? it's a fun game
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,100
4,621
Sorry but you can't expect people to make a decent layout from a track that just won't work, there is not enough room.


It doesn't take someone with ~superior intellect~ to make a map around a track, stop trying to make yourselves feel above the ones who don't like the track.

People won't participate because the map will not be decent because of the track. It almost ends where it starts and almost does a complete circle. There is not enough room for creativity.

You could simply rotate one of the peices and every peice of track after that 90 degrees and it would fix it btw, i thought that was obvious.

stirring.gif
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
Maybe I am somehow strange, but I have taken part in some contests and I have never came to people organizing the contest after it started and said 'hey, could you change rules/conditions/anything so I can do better/contest is better?'.

Perhaps because such contests were well prepared, thought out and also didn't require the use of a seemingly arbitrary constant picked by a third party.

Some track designs aren't used because they wont work well and you can simulate this potential to fail or succeed in your head. That's how you come to your eventual decision on paper and create your final appropriate design in Hammer. You base a track off of potential balance and performance.

This contest was supposed to be about increased creactivity, creating maps that could vary despite a focal constant; and the track provided limits creativity in almost every aspect of significant potential variance. The track should have been designed to offer a large amount of freedom but instead it does the opposite and the reason we are given is "it's supposed to be a challange" despite the fact that such a point is counter intuitive to the primary concept of the contest.

These were my legitimate concerns about the layout:

Variation limit 1:
track1.jpg


This long length of track forces the requirement of a solid structure imposed at this location. Anything other than the use of some solid geometry will either be a significant sniper/demo-jumping issue or performance hit. It's within the mappers own interest to do this, we will see a lot of it.

Variation limit 2:
track2.jpg


The proximity of start and end force a resolution of effective spawns to default to these locations. Anything else compromises the significance of the start or final locations which should be the most significant and epic portions of the map. Alternatives are possible but generally inferior. You will not see a blu spawn on the right and probably not on the left because it makes the low ground redundant; but the lack of options might force this possibility anyway.

Variation limit 3:
track3.jpg


The particularly linear portion of track here exposes a lot of the length of the map, anyone concerned with performance, regardless of gameplay, will be forced to make amends at either or both of these locations.

Variation limit 4:
track4.jpg


I re-iterate the issue above. Anyone concerned over LoS will be forced to make ammends at this corner; particularly if they havn't created solid geomtry from the first image.

Also i have DoDS.

P.S. This post wasn't intended to continue the debate on changing the track, i was merely explaining my reasoning for disliking this particular track design as people seemed to think i was just hatin' for the sake of personal preference.
 
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Sergis

L666: ])oo]v[
aa
Jul 22, 2009
1,874
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limit1: its a limit in the same sense the track itself is a limit. solid structures can be very different. you can even do 2 separate buildings there that could cut the pvs. i see nothing wrong about an opportunity for creative optimization.
l2: cant comment cuz im a rebel
l3: easily optimizable
l4: it's one single corner. anyone making a map for 9 classes, not 8 will do just fine.

so out of 3 limits only one is somewhat legit. and if i take a closer look at that...

Untitled4.png


it took me one - two minutes to come up with 9 different optimizable building configurations. the track is fine.
 
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