2CP Arena - What's the Point?

Katsu! :3

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Jul 30, 2021
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In the recent mapping landscape, you've probably heard of a variation of Arena Mode called 2CP Arena. This gamemode, while cool in concept, has some deep-seeded flaws that I'd like to talk about today. But first, if you're a bit newer around here, what is 2CP Arena? Well, put simply, it's Arena Mode but with two Control Points.
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Let's compare 2CP Arena and 1CP Arena for a bit; What 2CP Arena sorely lacks, especially compared to its singular-point sibling, is that direct motivation to get players to one particular spot of the map in the center. This is what we call "The Clash" of a map, where the initial midfight of a map takes place during the start of the round. The Clash is very important to Arena mode, as the results of it will determine your team's playercount for the remainder of the round. This is where we run into our first problem: Teams being split. Due to the nature of there being two control points, players on both teams will want to defend their respective points. What ends up happening is that approximately 1/2 to 1/4 of both teams will wind up defending the point rather than attacking, which severely effects how The Clash of a map plays out. Because of how variable your post-Clash team numbers will be, and how low the odds are of the team sizes are two participate in the clash being the same, you often end up with a really inequitable dynamic such as a 5-vs-9. This almost always results in players having no choice but to hunker down and stall out the other team into trying to deathball onto your team's defensive hold.

This lack of choice also serves as being prevalent across the whole gamemode, rather than just the final two interactions between the teams. For example, what is the riskiest thing to do in Arena Mode? That's right, go into a fight without backup. This risk forces players to play much more passively than they otherwise would in other gamemodes, but it's even more amplified in 2CP Arena mode due to the constant threat of your Control Point being capture while your teammates are not looking. Thanks to the way 2CP Arena works, the points have to be unlocked the entire round in order for teams to properly have motivation to attack and/or defend them. However, the only real choice players will make if they want to win the game (what most players want) is to stick back and work with their team in clunky, nonexistent coordinated pushes. This typically ends up forcing players into boring positions where they don't want to keep back, but they also don't want to risk their life just to spectate an increasingly boring match.

What 2CP Arena suffers from the most is a lack of team cohesion. Whether the map use the implementation of both points being neutral or 1 point being owned by each team, teams always trend to splitting up in favour of falling into your typical roles of Attack and Defense respective. This is normally not a problem in other gamemodes with a similar concept (CTF, Symm. CP) because players can respawn, and they'll always be able to move to where the action is happening when needed. Their player deficits in fights are temporary. However, in Arena Mode, this is completely not the case. Players end up running into situations they simply cannot win because half of their team is trying to defend the control point that they own, which isn't very fun.

One additional major fault in 2CP Arena is that of what we'll call "The Loop," or the action of teams repeatedly rotating between the two points, capping them and recapping them over and over without much team interaction happening whatsoever. It ends up making games that both last too long and are boring to spectate, which is already in it of itself an overarching problem of Arena mode. This flaw, thankfully, could be very easily patched with the addition of a round timer being put into the fray, as it would force players to have some urgency in directly getting rid of the enemy team instead of always playing a passive role.

In a casual setting, where Arena is most prevalently played, 2CP Arena cannot function correctly. What the gamemode needs to flourish is team coordination, but this is next to impossible in a casual environment simply due to the nature of how people treat casual TF2 play. (This includes community servers) Without the coordination of an entire team, 2CP Arena splits players in a way that is irrecoverable in most ways since one team will always have a numbers disadvantage. Again, in another gamemode like Pyramid-style A/D for example, this problem is incredibly mitigated due to players being able to respawn, however in Arena Mode the execution falls flat on its face because whoever wins the split fight effectively wins the round. The gameplay flow of 2CP Arena is too freeform for players to consistently work together between rounds, as without a distinct driving force to force players to group in in their own teams and move towards the other, players often find themselves roaming the spaghetti connectors between the RED and BLU areas.

To quote something I said to a friend of mine, "Given we put 1,000 TF2 players in a room, separated them off into a 500-500 setting where one half plays 1CP Arena and the other half plays 2CP Arena, I think we could statistically prove that 1CP Arena is the more enjoyable mode in a 'casual as we can get' setting. It simply has the better game flow for what a deathmatch mode needs, which is players moving towards each other." Now, ask yourself: What is the purpose of a gamemode that is directly outclassed by its predecessor? Maybe if you're a bit more open-minded to giving gamemodes a shot, you'll have said "Variety!" While I respect the noble mindset of always wanting to give something a chance, the fact of the matter is it'd be creating a niche that will inevitably be uncared about for years at a time. And to say that's not good, well, that'd be the understatement of the century.

A reminder to you, the reader: It's okay to enjoy bad things, but as level designers we must never forget they are bad. Nobody can stop you from creating something for a bad gamemode or even enjoying a bad gamemode, but you need to remember and understand why it is a bad thing at the end of the day. If you can't acknowledge the faults of a gamemode, then how can you expect to make a better map for it in the first place?

Have a good day,
- Minty
 

Another Bad Pun

In the shadows, he saw four eyes lit by fire
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Jan 15, 2011
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I wish that you had gone into more detail when comparing 1cp arena to 2cp arena in this opinion. I don't think the idea that attackers and defenders are often split is a compelling enough complaint for it to be the only direct point of comparison. For instance, if you think that this will always be true, then at least the cp2 version of arena gives defensive classes an objective to hold - in the cp1 version, they don't have a clear one, and it probably makes people enjoy the mode less, or makes them bait their whole team while they build alone in spawn.
The strength of defensive positions depend on the map itself. Byre, in your screenshot, has almost no defensive positions to hold whatsoever due to the small size of the map. In this case, how could the map stalemate or snowball in any way that a cp1 map would not?

You ignored an important distinction that exists in cp2 arena maps, which is whether the map is rotational or mirrored symmetry. This hugely affects the kind of gameplay you see on those maps. I will also not accept lack of coordination as anything other than a player issue - it is not necessarily a map flaw. Given time, players eventually learned how to play de_nuke.

So, if we decide we don't care much about the attacker vs defender angle, or the inability for casual players to play tf2 optimally, all we're really left with in the article are opinionated ideas about what tf2 should be and play like. Unfortunately, that isn't good enough to justify your last paragraph, where you remind us that, "It's okay to enjoy bad things, and cp2 arena is always bad." If it helps, the main complaint I see from Casual players about 2cp arena is the loop effect - players can find it annoying to need to wait for people to stop going in circles. Luckily, there is the timer solution, or alternatively, you can build a map with few spaces to hide. Theoretically, arena could just go on forever in cp1 as well, although there is not as much incentive.

If you want to play a 0cp arena map that I find very interesting, look for arena_volcano. It uses rising lava instead of a control point to break stalemates and creates a very intense, (though arguably predictable,) dynamic that controls the pace of each round.
 
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Idolon

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Feb 7, 2008
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To quote something I said to a friend of mine, "Given we put 1,000 TF2 players in a room, separated them off into a 500-500 setting where one half plays 1CP Arena and the other half plays 2CP Arena, I think we could statistically prove that 1CP Arena is the more enjoyable mode in a 'casual as we can get' setting. It simply has the better game flow for what a deathmatch mode needs, which is players moving towards each other." Now, ask yourself: What is the purpose of a gamemode that is directly outclassed by its predecessor?
Would you trust the results of this experiment if we ran it on every gamemode in existence? If you were to run a survey to find which version of arena is "good" and which is "bad", you would probably find that both of them are "bad".
Maybe if you're a bit more open-minded to giving gamemodes a shot, you'll have said "Variety!" While I respect the noble mindset of always wanting to give something a chance, the fact of the matter is it'd be creating a niche that will inevitably be uncared about for years at a time.
This describes arena in its entirety. Also, what's wrong with niches? Is there something wrong about liking something unpopular?
 

Lacry

L6: Sharp Member
Feb 25, 2019
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This describes arena in its entirety. Also, what's wrong with niches? Is there something wrong about liking something unpopular?
This is literally my life in a nutshell. I have so many unpopular opinions, and it reaches to the point that it seems like I do it on porpuse, but I dont.

I like 2CP arena more than 1CP arena (very obvious considering i made Seashore), but even beyond that there is plenty of TF2 modes that I like that most people hate, and I dont like many modes that people love (like KOTH, im sorry guys).

And I think I already said this before but, in my opinion one of TF2 strengths is the variety of modes the game has, and attacking or even boycotting other modes just because you dont like it (or even worse, because someone popular said it), is just ridiculous.
 

H20Gamez

L1: Registered
Oct 17, 2017
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In a casual setting, where Arena is most prevalently played, 2CP Arena cannot function correctly.
I would argue that 2CP Arena actually operates worse in an organized environment than a casual one. Playing Seashore, Byre, and Yanqing in organized play showed a major flaw within all these maps being camping. Due to the fear of losing the point pushing is so disincentivized that camping waiting for a pick or two is the strongest play you can make as a team. Which normally allows the defensive classes to become the strongest because holding the point is a number one goal. Pushing out leads to a defeat 9 times out of 10 and so playing for kritz/uber is the only reliable way. If trading doesn't happen then teams will sit around until they get uber again. Its always felt to me like both teams on 5CP last. Arena is flawed overall but 2CP just reinforces it imo.
 

Tiftid

the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
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Sep 10, 2016
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Playing Seashore, Byre, and Yanqing in organized play showed a major flaw within all these maps being camping. Due to the fear of losing the point pushing is so disincentivized that camping waiting for a pick or two is the strongest play you can make as a team.
Yes, exactly - it's the fact that you can lose the point again after taking it. That's not normally possible in Arena.
The best description I've heard of the CP in Arena is as a dedicated mechanic to prevent camping - you can have the best camping spot ever, but if the enemy team's on the CP, you must either go there and fight them, or lose.
Not having that pressure is why 2CP Arena, Arena CTF, and other such objective-swaps always fail.
It also means that they could conceivably be made to not fail, supposing the mapper makes the effort to somehow re-add that pressure - that way for the team who wins the initial teamfight to force the scattered, terrified enemy team to come to them.
 

Idolon

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Feb 7, 2008
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The best description I've heard of the CP in Arena is as a dedicated mechanic to prevent camping - you can have the best camping spot ever, but if the enemy team's on the CP, you must either go there and fight them, or lose.
Not having that pressure is why 2CP Arena, Arena CTF, and other such objective-swaps always fail.
In a 2CP arena map, if your team's CP is "the best camping spot ever," I think that is a layout flaw rather than gamemode flaw.

Unfortunately it is a layout flaw that a lot of 2CP arena maps tend to have, probably because there isn't really much established design theory for the mode. I think we would see better attempts at the mode given enough iteration, and I imagine there would probably be an emphasis on rewarding offense over defense*. Maybe I'm supposed to be the authority on this and guide everyone towards better layouts, but I also don't really want to put that much effort into a gamemode I invented on accident 9 years ago with a map I don't like very much anymore.

If it seems like I'm being defensive, I want to make clear that I think a thread like this is good for discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of the mode, and will help future mappers make better maps. I just also want to avoid discouraging people away from the gamemode entirely.


*ABP seems to argue that Byre already does this, while H20Gamez disagrees. I don't know what to make of it.