Mappers Vs Machines

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by tf2.com, Apr 11, 2017.

  1. tf2.com

    tf2.com L11: Posh Member

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    [​IMG]


    TF2Maps is back at it again with their second Mann vs. Machine contest! Red and Blu will have to put aside their differences, hit an upgrade station, and deliver exciting new robot-murdering locales.


    Entrants will receive a unique medal and a place in the showcase, plus the Mapper’s Medallions and even more prizes for winners! But don't dawdle, the deadline for submissions is Monday, July 31st at 11:59 PM EDT. Click here to read rules and learn more.

    Read on the TF2 Blog...
     
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  2. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    They're still pushing the angle that MVM is RED and BLU working together despite defenders being in RED uniforms since day one, huh?
     
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  3. TyeZenneth

    TyeZenneth L6: Sharp Member

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    The literally have grey robot models and it bothers me SO MUCH.
     
  4. Crowbar

    aa Crowbar perfektoberfest

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    A thought that's just occurred to me is what if everyone wears RED uniforms when fighting against machines for easier sentry recognition, and use red and not blue for robots are bluish?
     
  5. Izotope

    aa Izotope Never releases maps

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    RED and BLU fighting together against GREY robots?
    Too confusing for new players™
     
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  6. Micnax

    aa Micnax I maek map

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    Blame the playtesters
     
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  7. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Aren't the play testers the devs? Are they confused by their own game?
     
  8. Micnax

    aa Micnax I maek map

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    Valve has a large group of internal playtesters along with the devs (because the devs would already know how to solve puzzles and such).

    There were articles back during the Half Life 2 Ep 2 days where playtesters would walk in circles in the antlion caves, and also in Portal regarding certain puzzles being cut or made easier because playtesters would get stuck in them (when an average player would find them just fine).

    EDIT: I also remember an article explaining this exact topic too: RED players would continue to try shooting BLU players (and vice-versa) even though the robots were the enemies.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  9. Hydrogen

    Hydrogen MvM Maniac

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    The robots were actually meant to be green colored believe it or not (the evidence is on AlliedModders somewhere, I forgot where exactly). Valve only made them BLU and turned players RED since on the old setup (RED & BLU players) players wouldn't stop shooting at each other despite being allies.
     
  10. Mikroscopic

    aa Mikroscopic

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    That's strange. I always assumed it was due to simplicity's sake of not having to change the game logic too much. I didn't know they actually tested multicolor teams. Would you just randomly be red or blu?
     
  11. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

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    That's called "spychecking."
     
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  12. Messing Around

    Messing Around L5: Dapper Member

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    I refuse to believe this.
    Those play testers must have some special kind of down syndrome or something like that. Because unless Valve make them play blindly a brand new game mode without telling them that they have to team up with each others to kill robots, then I just can't imagine how can they tried to kill their teammates the whole match even if they knew what kind of game mode they were playing

    Even new players on Halloween maps still know to stop shooting at each others and try to kill bosses when they appear, especially when these maps are normal map (koth, pl, cp, ...)

    Here's the explanation on wiki

    Here's an old video from sigsegv : "MvM is basically CTF mode in disguise"

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvrAamVbQ-Y


    Even though the normal bots Ai is different from robots Ai, the basic idea is still Team Red [players] vs Team Blu [ro(bot)s] where the Blu team has to bring the flag (bomb) to the capture zone (hatch) while Red defends until time out
     
  13. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    First: Down syndrome jokes stop being funny when someone you care about has it.

    Second: Regular TF2 players will have built up an association between team color and friend/foe that is more unconscious than conscious. If you have both Red and Blue play on the same team, you're now asking your players to make one more mental calculation every time they see another player. In a stressful situation, that extra decision goes out the window, and players almost involuntarily will shoot at teammates because of the way regular TF2 has taught them to play.

    Coloring all players the same makes the game consistent across modes and therefore easier to play. Players would almost definitely adjust over time, but Valve decided to make it so there's nothing to adjust to.

    Also, TF2's color palette is designed around players being Red or Blue. Grey robots probably don't stick out much.
     
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  14. Blade x64

    aa Blade x64 Logical insanity

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    As much as I'd like to believe that the teams were made uniform because of playtesters shooting each other, I can't. I've heard it around since MvM was released. There wasn't any reason to question it. It made sense. Everyone knew about the Episode 2 cave example, so the idea that playtesters kept shooting each other was intuitive.

    At some point someone challenged this, asking for proof. No proof was supplied. I looked into it, but I couldn't find anything on it other than players just saying the same general thing. Unless somebody can support it, I can only figure that we have uniform teams because they were easier to implement and more intuitive. The only reason we'd get mixed team colors is if story took precedence, and when it comes to Valve, gameplay always trumps story.
     
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  15. Hydrogen

    Hydrogen MvM Maniac

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    Yeah I don't have a solid source for that statement (and it looks like the green bot picture is removed so nevermind that I said that) so take that claim with a grain of salt. I'm not trying to troll people with BS; I had a discussion about this on AlliedModders like a year ago. Given that snowplow was initially axed from EOTL because of "confusing", and that the original trailer has both RED+BLU fighting together against robots, I wouldn't think that conclusion is too far-fetched though. I'm also in agreement with @Idolon reasoning here.

    Also, probably worth mentioning that when I sent the medal to Valve I also kindly requested them to announce the contest on the TF blog if they can, which is why we have this thread in the first place (lol).
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  16. CommodoreKong

    CommodoreKong L6: Sharp Member

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    I really doubt there's a real source for the playtesters found having red and blu on the same team too confusing, Valve wasn't nearly as vocal back when MVM came back as they are now so there was no public statement about that. It's always possible that someone on the TF2 team could of emailed someone an answer to the question but I honestly doubt it.

    Honestly I think the most likely explanation is that TF2 has always been red vs blu and the easiest/fastest way to start testing MVM mode was to set it up with red defending and blu bots attacking, just like other attack and defend maps and they never even considered having red and blu on the same team for the mode. The MVM SFM movie does show red and blu fighting together but those movies aren't really canon to the ingame events since they show lots of stuff that can't actually happen in the game, like the spy sliding the sapper across the floor in Meet the Spy.
     
  17. Benoist3012

    Benoist3012 L3: Member

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    That's why we have a modding community:
    Red + Blu vs Machine
    Spy's Throwable Sapper
     
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  18. Hyperion

    aa Hyperion L16: Grid Member

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    About that red+blue mod, it causes more problems than anything. The game doesn't like red and blue players inside one another and I think bullets and projectiles behave bit differently. Not a functional problem but IMO it is indeed bit disorienting to see blue players in MvM
     
  19. Benoist3012

    Benoist3012 L3: Member

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    Yeah but all of that can be fixed. That mod was just quickly made.
     
  20. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

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    Yanno, I could have sworn it was eXtine who mentioned in a video that he playtested when the teams were still mixed RED & BLU, but I searched and apparently I was wrong. He says he played a couple months before release and that the teams were already RED vs BLU bots.

    Now I'm curious where the original source of this story was.