CTF Infiltration b15

[DonutVikingChap]

First, let me say that for a first map this is pretty great. The detailing looks nicely TF2-styled, and while I haven't played the map and therefore can't comment on the gameplay, it's nowhere near as blatantly broken as basically all first maps are. It's certainly leagues ahead of my first map, and it may or may not be better than my current efforts. Those things being said, here's some negative stuff.


You really need to stop doing this. I know I used to do this. I hope I've stopped doing it. I totally recognize how you're thinking.
You've planned your map carefully. Someone questions your design choices, you respond by stating why you made these choices. Here's the thing, though: no matter how good your intellectual reasoning is, an instinctive 'this feels wrong' from an outside perspective basically always trumps it. Like when you say that the map really isn't a maze; the layout makes perfect sense to you because you've spent a bunch of time in Hammer constructing it from scratch, but if someone else who plays the map says it feels like a maze there's a decent chance that a lot of people who'll play the map in the future will think it feels like a maze, and that in turn is a really good sign that you need to make your layout simpler and clearer.
Also, what does the 'I hope you understand that the layout is in no way final..' thing mean? We all know the map is a work in progress. That's why we're giving you feedback.


On a completely different note, don't detail your map prematurely. Start out building your map out of devtextured base geometry, and keep it that way through all the alpha stages. Only when (if) your layout ever gets perfected should you proceed to the beta stages and start putting in the esthetic stuff. Redesigning your layout is much easier when you don't have a bunch of visual crap to delete and rebuild every time.

I'm tired as hell and pretty drunk. Hope I'm making sense anyway. Good luck!

I admit my reply to Forty-Two was kinda rushed and not very well thought out (I was typing it on a cell phone) but I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't just throwing stuff together randomly. But I did actually take a lot of feedback from him (and others who've said pretty much the same thing) and I have used it to improve the latest versions of my map. (Keep in mind that he made that post when the map was only in A2)

For example, the ceilings are a bit higher now and the interiors feel a lot less maze-y in my opinion. I try to get the map into as many impromptus and gamedays as possible to see if others think so as well and so far people have been pretty happy with the layout changes, at least I'm not getting as much negative criticism about the layout anymore.

About the detailing, I knew pretty much since I started making the map that everyone always says not to detail the map from the start, but since it's my first map I found it hard to make it look as I'd imagined without giving it the proper textures and props so I decided to do it anyway despite knowing I'd get a lot of shit for it.

Honestly though, it's turned out pretty well so far as I feel I can make significant changes without any major hindrances. I will definitely consider not detailing my alphas in the future, though.

 

[DonutVikingChap]

Having worked on some mouse-controlled turrets (patents pending ) for the last few days, I added two of them to my map for fun and testing! Here's a link to the test turret version: [SEE UPDATE BELOW]

NOTE: The turrets are not intended for this map and this is mostly just for shits n giggles.

EDIT/UPDATE:

Here's a new version with many fixes:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s...29pgvmOeay8OOdbsiFF5R8d0DV_zECyP0zmYdDkg&dl=1

EDIT/UPDATE 2:

And yet another version with a bunch of fixes/new features and the turrets are enabled at all times!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s...Umv7MXiWFvHoM9ZOlzTDlZYpa4onMKd2aPKVKdYw&dl=1

You guys have no idea how fun it is to rush up there as a scout and mow down all the approaching blu bots with the machine gun turret

 

[Trotim]

How did you set those turrets up, entity-wise

 

[DonutVikingChap]

How did you set those turrets up, entity-wise

I have a trigger that assigns the player who walks up to the gun as "gun_user" and a logic_measure_movement that moves the gun prop according to gun_user's eye position. Then there's game_ui and a bunch of entities parented to the gun to make it fire when you press the attack button.

I learned most of this from Douglas 'TopHATTwaffle' Hoogland's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CIWqRkLQ3g but the setup for TF2 is a bit different compared to counter-strike so I had to improvise a bit. The end result seems pretty solid, though.

 

[TheClaudioAmericano]

Those turrets were a pretty clever and unique idea, I have to say. I do have to mention that, a lot of the time it was hard to even touch them because you always ended up getting sticky spammed or headshotted.
Maybe make it so that it´s harder for Blu to kill whoever is controlling the turret.

 

[DonutVikingChap]

Those turrets were a pretty clever and unique idea, I have to say. I do have to mention that, a lot of the time it was hard to even touch them because you always ended up getting sticky spammed or headshotted.
Maybe make it so that it´s harder for Blu to kill whoever is controlling the turret.

Way ahead of you
ctf_infiltration_turrettest3

 

[DonutVikingChap]

Alpha 8 is out now with some big interior layout changes! Hopefully this will make the gameplay a bit more balanced and make the intel room less sentry spammable.

Note: No turrets, seperate testing map coming soon with those (not an actual map).

 

[DonutVikingChap]

I have no idea if this map deserves to be called Beta yet, but nobody seems to give feedback on the layout anymore so I though I might as well call this the first beta version since it's now pretty detailed, has cubemaps and also HDR lighting.

The layout is still subject to change though and there are still some missing features (Like soundscapes and a fully functional HUD for this gamemode), so please do still give as much feedback as possible!

 

[Pocket]

A properly functional HUD is what I think it would take to merit a beta. Does the attack/defense CTF entity setup from stuff like Vector and HAARP still work? I know it's been "broken" on occasion before, but I've also played those maps not too long ago. Maybe it could be tweaked to accommodate these mechanics?

 

[DonutVikingChap]

A properly functional HUD is what I think it would take to merit a beta. Does the attack/defense CTF entity setup from stuff like Vector and HAARP still work? I know it's been "broken" on occasion before, but I've also played those maps not too long ago. Maybe it could be tweaked to accommodate these mechanics?

So are those maps using a custom hud texture or are they just set up in a clever way?
Actually, I think you can set different gamemodes in a key in the intel entity, and there was an option for classic CP, but I don't think that would work in this map, I could try though.

 

[DonutVikingChap]

Wow, it actually worked after tinkering with it for a bit! I just added a tf_logic_hybrid_ctf_cp entity and a control point and changed around some variables and outputs and the HUD seems to work perfectly now.
I've updated to B2 already, hopefully new players won't be as confused with the gamemode anymore!
Now I just have to work on the soundscapes, they might be in the next version.

 

[DonutVikingChap]

Introducing the "Hopefully-people-will-stop-complaining-about-the-darkness-now" (AKA Beta 3) update!
Featuring general design improvements, soundscapes, nicer aesthetics and most importantly even more light, because apparently every night map has to look like DoubleCross!

Anyway, I know the darkness has been a big issue with my map so I have tried a lot to improve the lighting in this version by increasing the ambient light, adding even more phantom-/ghost- and normal lights and tweaking the tonemap controller while still trying to keep the map not looking bright as daytime by adding dark fog and changing the color of the skycards (which I were never really happy with to begin with).

In addition, the main "too dark" area (the trees you could walk through) are now playerclipped so that people can't hide in them anymore. Take that, shadows!

EDIT: Updated the download because I had forgotten to build cubemaps for HDR

 

[Fantaboi]

This map is great, I finally got around to playing it, everything on it feels right, the lighting, the detail. This is certainly some good work you've done here

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I'd like to start off by saying that I like the concept of this map, but the execution is way off.

First off, you are doing a night time map. That does not mean it can be dim or darker than a midday map. Infact, it should be brighter in all the gameplay area's than a midday map. If a player can get there one way or another, it needs to be fully lit up like a christmas tree. The player must INSTANTLY (I cannot put enough emphasis on this) know if it's a friend or foe. This is pivotal for night time maps. An EXTREMELY good example of this is Pipeline. Pipeline uses Wide outer-angle spot lines (basically 75-90 degree's) and small inner-angle spots (like, 15 degree's) at a moderately high brightness (I don't rememeber off the top of my head) to create a soft, yet bright, glow. This is simulating a long string of light bulbs, but the same idea can be applied for your map.

Secondly, the sightlines: Inside, you have one good sightline for red for the bottom route. The upper route sightline is too short to be deemed safe for proper sniping. If red is to be defensive, they need to have these defenses and cannot rely on just sentries. Outside, blue has a sightline to everything, and red has minimal cover. With this suppression, Red really doesn't want to come outside (adding to the fourth point). Additionally, the sniper spots aren't well lit. I stand at a window, look up and out and not see any sniper easily, yet I see people getting sniped.

Thirdly, the "bunkers." You cannot use words or voice to say "Thing X will do something with Thing Y happens." You must show it in your design or environment. Barnblitz uses a sign to show that "the cart stops here" and the skewed-track to show that there is a dynamic event. Generally, I think that the bunkers are a bad idea and I will talk about that in a second.

Fourth, your map is one sided. I'm not talking about one team being stronger than the other, but gameplay wise. Blue attacks Reds trying to get the intel. Once Red gets the intelligence, thats it, there is really no solid way for red to defend as all their defenses are stuffed up in the intel room. The bunkers don't help at all because, for them to effective, the need red to be in them. If red is not there (which they usually aren't because they aren't that great of spots until the intel is capped) then they are useless. You will need to think of a solid way for the second side of the gamemode to come in, I have a couple of ideas that could work, but I'd like you to think of some and decide what you think is best (yeah! learning!).

That is a lot of words, and I hope I didn't lose you with it. The idea for the mode you have is good, and (from our recent conversation in steam chat) the spirit to finish and make this map the best it can be is there. I know you can do it, but let some of us help you along in getting your vision in place.

 

[DonutVikingChap]

Spoiler

I'd like to start off by saying that I like the concept of this map, but the execution is way off.

First off, you are doing a night time map. That does not mean it can be dim or darker than a midday map. Infact, it should be brighter in all the gameplay area's than a midday map. If a player can get there one way or another, it needs to be fully lit up like a christmas tree. The player must INSTANTLY (I cannot put enough emphasis on this) know if it's a friend or foe. This is pivotal for night time maps. An EXTREMELY good example of this is Pipeline. Pipeline uses Wide outer-angle spot lines (basically 75-90 degree's) and small inner-angle spots (like, 15 degree's) at a moderately high brightness (I don't rememeber off the top of my head) to create a soft, yet bright, glow. This is simulating a long string of light bulbs, but the same idea can be applied for your map.

Secondly, the sightlines: Inside, you have one good sightline for red for the bottom route. The upper route sightline is too short to be deemed safe for proper sniping. If red is to be defensive, they need to have these defenses and cannot rely on just sentries. Outside, blue has a sightline to everything, and red has minimal cover. With this suppression, Red really doesn't want to come outside (adding to the fourth point). Additionally, the sniper spots aren't well lit. I stand at a window, look up and out and not see any sniper easily, yet I see people getting sniped.

Thirdly, the "bunkers." You cannot use words or voice to say "Thing X will do something with Thing Y happens." You must show it in your design or environment. Barnblitz uses a sign to show that "the cart stops here" and the skewed-track to show that there is a dynamic event. Generally, I think that the bunkers are a bad idea and I will talk about that in a second.

Fourth, your map is one sided. I'm not talking about one team being stronger than the other, but gameplay wise. Blue attacks Reds trying to get the intel. Once Red gets the intelligence, thats it, there is really no solid way for red to defend as all their defenses are stuffed up in the intel room. The bunkers don't help at all because, for them to effective, the need red to be in them. If red is not there (which they usually aren't because they aren't that great of spots until the intel is capped) then they are useless. You will need to think of a solid way for the second side of the gamemode to come in, I have a couple of ideas that could work, but I'd like you to think of some and decide what you think is best (yeah! learning!).

That is a lot of words, and I hope I didn't lose you with it. The idea for the mode you have is good, and (from our recent conversation in steam chat) the spirit to finish and make this map the best it can be is there. I know you can do it, but let some of us help you along in getting your vision in place.

Thanks a lot for taking your time to leave this feedback but I just want to clarify some things regarding these issues:

We discussed this in the chat room already, but I've already read and know a lot about the art style, map design and lighting methodology in Team Fortress 2 (having played it for 3400 hours since early 2008 and having read at least half the articles in the Official TF2 Wiki / VDC) and therefore, while I really appreciate that you're trying to help, things like characters' colors having to be completely visible are things I'm already well aware of, despite this being my first attempt at creating a proper map. I'm definitely not trying to say that I'm a professional by any means, of course I'm still learning a lot from my mapping experiences.

So I admit a lot of these problems you've mentioned with my map are legitimate concerns and I'm trying to come up with creative ideas to fix them all sooner or later (please don't mind that I call the map "beta" rather than alpha, It's still just as likely to change), some of these problems have emerged from me having new gameplay ideas that people didn't end up agreeing with or me just not thinking about them as much as I should have when creating the map.

Now to be more specific about the things you mentioned:

1. Lighting
Again, I am aware of how the lighting should optimally be like in a nighttime map (bright in gameplay areas and dark in the background), but being the mapping noob that I am, I'm not sure how to make it look how I want it to.

I've been looking at maps like Pipeline and Doublecross and experimenting with things like phantom lights, different types of normal lights and tweaking fog / tonemap controllers to find out what works best for this map and I think it will be much better when I finally get it right. (For the next version I think I'll try to add two big spotlights to the RED base pointing at the hill and increase fog thickness for example.)

If you have any ideas on specific things that I could do to improve the lighting, please let me know!

2. Sightlines / One-sided layout
I'm thinking of creative ideas to fix these too, I think I will try to make the loading dock area and other indoor areas much taller and wider and add more fences/(cosmetic) towers/barriers/more sniper protection to the outside area to create a chokepoint outside where RED can hold up to effectively make their base feel "bigger". To compensate I may have to add more time for BLU to attack to make sure they can get past the defenses in time.

3. The bunker
I agree that it's stupid and I'm already completely re-doing it.

 

[Idolon]

I would lay the map out in a spiral pattern, so that Red can more easily access any part of Blue's escape route. In other words, the escape route would go in a large circle around Red's spawn.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Thanks a lot for taking your time to leave this feedback but I just want to clarify some things regarding these issues:

We discussed this in the chat room already, but I've already read and know a lot about the art style, map design and lighting methodology in Team Fortress 2 (having played it for 3400 hours since early 2008 and having read at least half the articles in the Official TF2 Wiki / VDC) and therefore, while I really appreciate that you're trying to help, things like characters' colors having to be completely visible are things I'm already well aware of, despite this being my first attempt at creating a proper map. I'm definitely not trying to say that I'm a professional by any means, of course I'm still learning a lot from my mapping experiences.

You can play and read all you want and have the entire VDC memorized, but if you can't properly execute what you know, it's worthless.

As for lighting, I'd like to see what/how you do this next bit and then I'll help you out from there.

 

[DonutVikingChap]

I would lay the map out in a spiral pattern, so that Red can more easily access any part of Blue's escape route. In other words, the escape route would go in a large circle around Red's spawn.

That's an interesting concept but I think the map already kinda works like that with the forward spawn doors opening and closing, letting RED get outside (access the escape route). What I might try though is to have at least one of those forward spawn doors open at all times so that RED always can go that way and prepare even when BLU hasn't gotten to the intel yet.

 

[DonutVikingChap]

Really big update this time around with a lot of changes to the lighting and gameplay of the map!
I think it's going to be great.

 

[nightwatch]

It certainly looks a lot nicer, as I secretly always hated the aesthetic of your bunker + weird stair building. It looks a lot cleaner and more uniform in this new version, so that's a plus. One aesthetic comment that I would leave you is that you might want to reconsider how you've done the exterior mountain displacements - they don't really fit TF2's art style. Of course it's up to you in the end, but a blockier approach might work better.