KotH Geiger

EArkham

Necromancer
aa
Aug 14, 2009
1,625
2,773
You can match the seams on water, but only on the surface (texture lock + scaling + move with the skybox camera, etc). But if a player is under the water and looking at the skybox, it will always look horrible. It's an engine thing.

The only options are A) don't let players in the water and overlap from the skybox (eg, Lakeside), B) disguise it with walls/props/etc (what most people do) or C) put up a wall under the water way past the bounds of where players can get (where the water fog hides it) and where players can't see the top of it through the surface of the water.

Due to your layout, you'd have to have a pretty giant amount of water to move that seam far enough away, and that could be an optimization nightmare... I don't know if water has a bigger resource impact with a larger brush or not.

IMO the best option is B, disguise it with the tsunami wall you mentioned, heh.

[Edit] Also, random side note but with a name like geiger I would not have even expected to see an ocean but a mineshaft or something radioactive. Heh.
 
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Mar 20, 2012
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It's a pity there's not really a way to do this without "cheating" that transition. Oh well - it's what I've come to expect from Hammer. hah.

As for the name, I haven't added in the actual reactor yet. The only thing that gives it the nuclear feel right now is the fact that there's a bunch of radioactive waste barrels.
 

Idolon

they/them
aa
Feb 7, 2008
2,105
6,106
I've come up with a bit of a stupid solution that probably isn't even worth posting, but here goes.

waterproblem.png

I have no idea if this would work, because it:
A) assumes that you can create a volume that acts like water, but is invisible (probable)
B) assumes that there are no rendering problems related with doing any of this (unlikely)

Basically, all of the rendered water is in the 3D skybox, therefore no seams. The invisible water makes the playable area act like water (for floating bodies, particles, etc). Since the 3D skybox will always render behind the real world, you need to put anything under the water in the 3D skybox. It's probably not going to work, but worth a shot if you really want the seamless effect.

Oh, and 100 posts! *dances jig*
 

LeSwordfish

semi-trained quasi-professional
aa
Aug 8, 2010
4,102
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I think A isn't actually possible, sadly. I belive water can only be the one entity, and it's the one that makes it move.

And the problem i had with water was reflections. I guess you could grind them away somehow- i spent about half an hour wrestling with this and called it a night- but the skybox water reflected differently to the map water.
 
Mar 20, 2012
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2AFF45CED17BB8F5FF252422F70BB75139C1F99A


Yeah, it's definitely the reflections. The in-map water has proper reflections while the 3D skybox water is more like "I dunn gaf about you."

I'll just focus on the gameplay for now. No use in torturing myself on this aspect.

EDIT: While I have so many people in here trying to give suggestions about the water seam issue, I might as well ask how to fix this:
02345CC6E51E4283E78E044AF2AE4EF7CC7B8A55


I never had this issue when working with the area portals in cp_soot. They are 2 unit thick area portals linked to these doors and, when closed, it nodraws all the edges that it touches. I double checked the area portal entity/door-setup with an official map, and I can't see any differences.

What foul trickery is that?
 
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Micnax

Back from the dead (again)
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Apr 25, 2009
2,109
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EDIT: While I have so many people in here trying to give suggestions about the water seam issue, I might as well ask how to fix this:
02345CC6E51E4283E78E044AF2AE4EF7CC7B8A55


I never had this issue when working with the area portals in cp_soot. They are 2 unit thick area portals linked to these doors and, when closed, it nodraws all the edges that it touches. I double checked the area portal entity/door-setup with an official map, and I can't see any differences.

What foul trickery is that?

Happens to me too. You have to make it absolutely 1px, and embed it inbetween the door's thickness.

Trust me, it's difficult.
 
Mar 20, 2012
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Did a pre-gameday update to fix a few bugging issues and a fix for a derp change in cap time.

July 20, 2012
koth_geiger_a2 uploaded
-cap time increased
-lighting tweaks
-area portal tweaks
-added more cube maps
-some aesthetic development
-free donuts for everyone
 
Aug 23, 2008
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Hey played this in a 6v6 pug tonight. Our players weren't having too much fun, and it seems like you have some problems with your layout really emphasizing one half of the map over the other by a significant margin.

Demo: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3492731/spacesaver/20120721-0358-koth_geiger_a1.dem

We ended up playing A1, which had the really fast cap times. Glad to see you changed that.

1) The upper area is so much stronger than the other half of the map without question. It feels like you could get rid of the lower area completely and the affect to the map itself would be minimal. I think a lot of that has to do with healthpack placement and just in general how much better height is for almost every class. Now, in our playtests this was exacerbated by the fact that the cap time was so quick, because a team could kill a couple players, send scout in to cap, and keep the combo up top covering. If the enemy team tried to jump on the cap to stop it, the combo could spam them or jump on them, and then wipe the team. Even without the fast cap times, I feel like a similar situation could occur, give how the height is set up. Its a rather extreme change, but I feel like you need to offer something similar on the other half of the map. As it stands right now, pushing into or out of the lower area just seems suicidal, and whatever use your getting out of it is almost entirely a question of a scout getting into a position, but they can't really do it because they just end up running underneath the enemy combo and getting destroyed.

2) The only healthpacks that seemed to matter were the mediums on the ledges behind the area you would hold up top. They made being a medic really easy, as anyone could jump me, I'd run or surf back to the healthpack, and my team would commence to kill them with ease. If I had to drop down to get a healthpack or run around to another area of the map, that would make it a little bit harder to hold up on that upper area for long periods of time (though, not by much). I feel like putting the medium underneath near the pillar could be better, or in the room where you first enter near the ramp up to the top.

3) I'm not a huge fan or your spawn set up. The extra door seems useless as it goes down to the lower area where I don't want to be, and the main door being so far down below ground also doesn't seem very fun. Soldiers have a tough time getting much forward momentum on the initial rollout without jumping into the ramp. Also, you only seem to have four spawns set up (at least in the spawn where we were). This makes getting heals to the proper classes before the round very difficult. I imagine the situation in highlander is exacerbated even more. You definitely need at least 16 spawns, and should probably clump at least 8-9 together for the beginning of the round.

4) Sniper sightlines appeared to be out of control. We ran sniper 24/7, and he really wrecked people. The other team couldn't do much of anything without getting picked. I didn't have a problem, so it may have just been the other teams positioning, but I would definitely check the demo to see where he was sniping from, and how to adjust it.

5) Better check your clipping in the water area. Some people in the pregame were able to get around it and out into nonplayable space. I won't spend too much time harping about deathpits, but knowing the comp players that I do, a maps chances of competitive success increase a great deal when you remove them.

I feel like this map could be fun, but you really need to ensure that the two sides of the map are weighted equally, or you end up with a rather stale combat scenario with very little unpredictable flanks or attacks.
 

fubarFX

The "raw" in "nodraw"
aa
Jun 1, 2009
1,720
1,978

Yeah, it's definitely the reflections. The in-map water has proper reflections while the 3D skybox water is more like "I dunn gaf about you."
[/QUOTE]
you can fix the reflection seam by using the same cubemap for both surfaces. it's really that easy
 
Mar 20, 2012
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I appreciate the playtest, Scorpio. Sorry things didn't really go that well - I'm new to the whole TF2 map scene.

I have a few follow up questions if you don't mind me asking:

1) The upper area is so much stronger than the other half of the map without question. It feels like you could get rid of the lower area completely and the affect to the map itself would be minimal.
Yikes. This is the problem with experimenting - it's an equal chance of success vs. failure :p. I'm unsure if I should just completely redesign mid in that case (which means I probably won't be able to finish in time for the contest) or try and make the bottom route work. What if the lower route was protected from the upper levels?

2) The only healthpacks that seemed to matter were the mediums on the ledges behind the area you would hold up top. They made being a medic really easy, as anyone could jump me, I'd run or surf back to the healthpack, and my team would commence to kill them with ease.
I'll go through all the health/ammo pack locations again.

3) I'm not a huge fan or your spawn set up. The extra door seems useless as it goes down to the lower area where I don't want to be, and the main door being so far down below ground also doesn't seem very fun.
A pretty easy change to move it up. I was nervous about a spawn having only one door, however. Would it be better if I left the lower route door but had the main door at road level?
I do have 16 spawns in each spawn. Apparently, 11 of Red's spawn entities were screwed up in a recent hammer crash. I'll go about fixing that.

4) Sniper sightlines appeared to be out of control. We ran sniper 24/7, and he really wrecked people. The other team couldn't do much of anything without getting picked.
Yikes. I tried hard to bring the sightlines into control. I'll take a look at the demo.

5) Better check your clipping in the water area. Some people in the pregame were able to get around it and out into nonplayable space. I won't spend too much time harping about deathpits, but knowing the comp players that I do, a maps chances of competitive success increase a great deal when you remove them.
"Redesign the entire map...redesign the entire map..." I'm probably going to keep the water but give a stronger reinforcement barrier to prevent the ease of being shoved off. I can't really see myself removing that element from the map. I don't really have enough time. Alternatively, I could make the water swimmable and give a path back up, but I know how much players love to swim.

Again, appreciate the playtest and thoughts, Scorpio.
 
Aug 23, 2008
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At this point, barring a redesign, making the lower area viable is possible, but difficult. You'll just have to tinker with it. Its probably good for scouts or flanking classes, but its hard to imagine the combo or anything going there without getting destroyed.

Someone in our playtest did mention that having the water be swimmable was better than a death pit, and that having a ramp up would be better. However, then you have to worry about this huge expanse of water that someone could hide in, and that killing someone in there might be more trouble than its worth. Like, if a scout got into the water and a soldier was trying to chase the kill, he would have to swim a great distance just to get one kill, and then have to come back from it.
 
Mar 20, 2012
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After reviewing ScorpioUprising's demo and write-up, I'm moving forward with some changes that should help alleviate some of the problems. None of these are set in stone, but hopefully start moving the map into a direction that requires more conscious choice making in roll-outs/approaches and gameplay in general.

The biggest change in the lower platform area:
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1480A79925FAB15DE773367D589796D3E0648A7E


(the pillar at the bottom of the ramps won't be there - I'm re-doing that transition)

While not quite the height advantage the half-circle platform gives, the lower platform now gives a new approach to the point itself. The trade off comes in health/ammo accessibility - a team that picks the taller, half-circle approach won't have access to the health without giving away their advantageous position. A team that approaches through this new route will have easier access to munitions and health, but a slight disadvantage in height over the platform.

The lower route that leads under the point and up the back still exists, so flanking classes like Spies/Pyros and Scouts can still come up and surprise their opponents.

There are more changes coming - particularly in the form of spawn area changes to help make that low route not so cruddy.