WiP in WiP, post your screenshots!

[UKCS-Alias]

They go insane over the tiny differences.

And when the map is mirrored and not rotated symetry then their statement already becomes invalid as you would gain diffirent advantages around corners anyway.

But yes, there is a point of logic on why they go mad about it and i think its at least worth to explain why its a problem:

When it affects movement time its a bad thing as then it matters because the object would be hindering that team for capping (if you get on the cp 1 second to late it requires you extra time to counter that, time in which the enemy could be closing in). And even though they dont fall in the path it still matters for balance as instead of going for the cp, you might want to take the mid area. All the movement actions should cost the same time.

And when blocking visibility both should (it doesnt have to be an exact mirror on that part, but the gain/loss from being (un)able to see through it must be equal for both teams. After all, if you hold the point and can see the enemy medic earlier as the forklift can be seen though that enemy medic will be spotted earlier and probably also have to use his uber earlier. Yet at the closed boxes he doesnt have to.

And the crate vs forklift problem affects both of these. So thats something that should be fixed when aiming for comp.

 

[soylent robot]

What a coincidinkle, I'm thinking of having loggerheads have asymmetrical detailing, but only in the out of bounds areas where players can't reach. This wouldn't cause that much of an issue would it?

Also changed the spawn points so they weren't so similar to Viaduct's spawn areas, but the layout makes it difficult to take a coherent picture of the area. How do the comp folks make the bird's eye view pictures of maps like this?

I'll probably make it good ol' desert industrial instead of alpine

 

[Vel0city]

For the space theme i ran against a wall called valve.

Im quite poor at creating new styles. I generaly need a resource to use as base for styling. From that i am able to create my own styles. rd_asteroid on that was a pain as the map was mostly prop based. And without them it just didnt look good. it was just a basic flat shape. At the distance of the screenshots it might look good, but standing close and you noticed it wasnt.

By waiting 1 year for new content so i potentialy could give it a more interesting look, i just lost patience and decided to search for a new theme i can work on, and have ideas for. Egypt was the result.

It might be sad, but its just as sad as a map that gets dropped. Sometimes you have to make some harder decisions. Chaning styles was one of those.

You and me have the same problems. I'm not starting on my space-themed koth map until Astroid and its assets are released into the wild. Otherwise I have my layout finalized but I can't do anything else because Valve didn't complete the space-themed assets.

 

[ScorpioUprising]

And when the map is mirrored and not rotated symetry then their statement already becomes invalid as you would gain diffirent advantages around corners anyway.

Comp teams play koth maps in halves, and you switch teams at the halftime. So, while you may gain a very modest, almost nonexistent advantage for being on a particular side, you lose it when the teams switch.

As far as out of bounds areas go, I don't think comp players care if they are asymmetrical. However, its important to notice when these areas bleed into gameplay areas, so for example cp_granary. Someone put out a pro version of granary that attempts to fix the different style of buildings in certain areas of the map (the buildings on the sides of middle, and the left side of yard) to ensure they match up and have the same gameplay impact. However, granary_pro (or whatever its called) is not universally accepted with US players still using the older version of granary, but I feel like that has to do with other gameplay changes the map maker made. If someone made a cp_granary_fixed that just addressed the building discrepancies, I think it would be a no brainer in comp circles.

 

[UKCS-Alias]

Comp teams play koth maps in halves, and you switch teams at the halftime. So, while you may gain a very modest, almost nonexistent advantage for being on a particular side, you lose it when the teams switch.

If that counts for every map, why do they even bother about those minimal diffirences? As when teams have to switch every unbalanced part gets countered.

It as far as i know only matters for linear maps that dont require the teams to switch sides (linear 5cp, ctf).

But even then i still think its important to know on which parts they look to decide if its balanced.

 

[ScorpioUprising]

If that counts for every map, why do they even bother about those minimal diffirences? As when teams have to switch every unbalanced part gets countered.

It as far as i know only matters for linear maps that dont require the teams to switch sides (linear 5cp, ctf).

But even then i still think its important to know on which parts they look to decide if its balanced.

They switch sides on every map (at least in ESEA and UGC), both for the purposes of taking a break (restroom run, phone calls, etc) and also for balancing (as in koth_viaduct). Its mostly a holdover from CS, where the attack/defend nature of ts vs cts gets built in to ESEA's matchmaking.

The difference between koth_viaduct asymmetry and cp_granary assymetry is quite a bit more extreme than you are making it seem. In an original version of granary, the red warehouse for the second point had some very slight metal trim on the wood pillars. Scouts could use that trim to jump from the floor up to the catwalk areas, and get into a position in like two seconds as opposed to like ten.

The viaduct changes, on the other hand, are largely down to rocket paths, as rockets fire from the right side of the screen and can get cut by level geo on the different sides of the map. While that does affect gameplay, its usually a matter of 5 - 10 units you can walk to negate the sightline (a change of about 1 second, or even less depending on the angle). Rocket jumping is also affected, but its the same basic idea: you might have to change your position a bit to get the same sort of jump, but its almost never impossible to get the same basic trajectory.

Ultimately, while you might complain that competitive players are inconsistent in their demands for symmetry, non-rng, balance, etc etc, you have to understand that you are talking about a community of players, many with their own wants and demands, some of which will end up contradicting. But, the demand for symmetry in level geometry is ultimately far more consistent among competitive players, so if you are planning on making a koth or cp map that you would like comp players to play, you increase your chances tremendously by avoiding asymmetrical geometry in places where it matters. If you think thats BS or inconsistent, then you don't have to do it, but its kind of ridiculous to expect competitive players to budge on this issue, especially when the logic of their demand is so well developed (assymetric layout gives players an advantage in an unfair way, level designers can adjust level geometry to be consistent, competitive players should demand symetric geometry).

 

[UKCS-Alias]

Ultimately, while you might complain that competitive players are inconsistent in their demands for symmetry, non-rng, balance, etc etc, you have to understand that you are talking about a community of players

If they change sides each game then they already did fix every balance issue the map can give. Thats the point on why i personaly dont care about symmetry for comp. If a map is good for comp it simply is, and there are alot more features to that than just symmetry. If that realy is a balance issue they can change sides. If its realy fair then they dont have to change, but personaly i still think it has to be done for potential unknown unbalance features (like the light setting on 2fort that affected the visibility of a sniper which most pub players didnt even realize it existed)

Anyway, if i map its for mvm or pub. I will ofcourse take the comments of comp players serious (they have a better sense for balance than the average pub), but if it realy comes down to it the comp player just has to accept it. And if that means it doesnt become a comp map, than that will have to be. I dont play comp myself, i play pub... and i rather make a map that i play on myself.

But again, you gave good feedback for people that want to make comp maps. As they need to know all the details for that. And let many small things often be overlooked.

 

[EArkham]

Yay, it fits!

Unfortunately all the cinematics won't be done in B4. It'll only have some of them, assuming compiling and plugging them in goes without issue. The spaceship won't explode yet, but I think it's more important to get the version with the fixed playerclips out there first.

 

[LeSwordfish]

You should see if you can put the "fizzled by a cow mangler" particle effect on anybody who falls onto the spaceship, so its like it has some cool electric defenses.

 

[Izotope]

You should see if you can put the "fizzled by a cow mangler" particle effect on anybody who falls onto the spaceship, so its like it has some cool electric defenses.

Been trying forever to find out how to do this.

 

[TyeZenneth]

Isn't it literally just the old energy effect from HL2, and couldn't you then just use a trigger_hurt set to the right damage type to kill people?
Could be wrong though.

 

[Izotope]

It isn't

 

[Spipper]

Pretty much done with salty's last:

The lobby however, is still a pain in the ass (especially that small sideroute).

 

[tyler]

Wow, you really hate demo nades

 

[EArkham]

You should see if you can put the "fizzled by a cow mangler" particle effect on anybody who falls onto the spaceship, so its like it has some cool electric defenses.

Tried early on to do that, never could figure out how to get it to work. I think the cow mangler thing is hard coded in somehow.

 

[UKCS-Alias]

Wow, you really hate demo nades

Who needs nades when sticky spam works better?

If its aimed at a comp map then that might be something to consider. But when its mainly aimed at pub its better to just have the point the way you want. And in pubs most demoman nades are from the lochnload.

 

[MaccyF]

Tried early on to do that, never could figure out how to get it to work. I think the cow mangler thing is hard coded in somehow.

try typing 2359360 as the damage type, it may or may not work.

 

[EArkham]

try typing 2359360 as the damage type, it may or may not work.

I seem to recall trying that at one point, but I tested it just now and it just gibs. No cow manglin'.

Also, it seems like starting a local server automatically sets sv_cheats to 1? I don't remember it doing that before, and I don't have a config that sets it automatically since I've always been used to typing that in when testing maps.

 

[MaccyF]

shame, ah well it was worth a try.

And thats pretty weird about the sv_cheats.

Also, 100th post :woot:

 

[Muddy]

sv_cheats has never automatically been enabled for me.