Valve Pays Out to Item Creators

[Dr Forrester]

Point of fact: Those numbers, while significant, are bound to drop down much lower at some point after the the initial "WOW" factor wears off of the new items. Not to mention as the polycount items start getting more competition from newer items, their value will depreciate until they are around the same price range as, say natasha or the Eyelander.

So I guess what I'm saying here is that these checks are the irregularity, not the norm.

 

[grazr]

Calm down dear, It's just a commercial.

Why is it the most common way to undermine someones arguement on this board is to claim they are "getting worked up". Don't be silly. I was simply saying that observing a novice in level design and modelling try to compare or even claim that one is harder than the other is both shocking and amusing. It's like someone thinking they can use photoshop because they found the magic lassoo, when the pen tool is infinitely more useful.

"There is some effort involved" doesn't really bring 2 different efforts together. Arena-TC is like TC-SP, you have a lot more to learn before taking on the next challenge, there's just no two ways about it. The difference in technical skill and knowledge to produce one compared to the other is just there. So someone who's produced a basic game mode can't really claim to know everything Hammer/Source can do. Not that i'm saying Josh has only done arena, which he has already said he hasn't. I'm just using it as an example to demonstrate the difference here in what level of knowledge is being applied to any one task/product.

If anything you're comparing learning curves. Hammer is forgiving up to a moderate point, but then you really have to dedicate yourself to produce the best results. Modelling is pretty steap so you have to dedicate resources from the start, but physically and mentally the challenge doesn't evolve or get more complicated. Obviously there is beginner and advanced stuff to learn but... i'll just stop here before i write a goddamn essay about it.

Having worked on 5 iterations of this engine since 2001-2, released DoD maps in 2004, and worked on an on-line cooperative player mod in 2006; then seeing someone who's first map was made official make claims about what's harder, mapping or modelling, is a little shocking to say the least.

No offence.

edit: I just don't want people leaving this thread with the pre-conception that because some novice said so, that one skill is easier than the other, when really no one here is in a position to legitimately make such claims. But i do know that most people underestimate the full extent of Hammer.

 

[JoshuaC]

Having worked on 5 iterations of this engine since 2001-2, released DoD maps in 2004, and worked on an on-line cooperative player mod in 2006; then seeing someone who's first map was made official make claims about what's harder, mapping or modelling, is a little shocking to say the least.

No offence.

You're right, My opinion on the matter is moot. I've learned nothing since watchtower.

 

[YM]

Having worked on 5 iterations of this engine since 2001-2, released DoD maps in 2004, and worked on an on-line cooperative player mod in 2006; then seeing someone who's first map was made official make claims about what's harder, mapping or modelling, is a little shocking to say the least.

Having made both models and maps, I can say though, that whilst neither is more or less skilful than the other, one does take considerably less time and effort to produce from start to finish. No prizes for working out which one.

An example of this is the tractor that replaces Acumen's in cp_manor (you'll get to see it soon enough, and it's sad that Acumen's couldn't be bought cause it's epic) was made in a little under 24 hours start to finish + a hefty revision and LoDs. So 1/3 to 1/4 of the polycount stuff, whilst the rest of cp_manor would have taken many weeks of 9-5 work to finish.

I emailed robin with my concerns over the perceived value of assets (ie polycount are worth 20x a map) and this is what he said:

We’re actually very concerned about this, and getting level designers fully into the economy is actually the highest priority thing we’re working on right now. We’ve got a bunch of ideas for how we’re going to do it, and we think you guys will be happy to see them. The solutions we’re kicking around will all handle the case where maps are being produced by collaborations of people, like you and Alex.

 

[Eiv Ne]

Why is it the most common way to undermine someones arguement on this board is to claim they are "getting worked up". Don't be silly. I was simply saying that observing a novice in level design and modelling try to compare or even claim that one is harder than the other is both shocking and amusing. It's like someone thinking they can use photoshop because they found the magic lassoo, when the pen tool is infinitely more useful.

"There is some effort involved" doesn't really bring 2 different efforts together. Arena-TC is like TC-SP, you have a lot more to learn before taking on the next challenge, there's just no two ways about it. The difference in technical skill and knowledge to produce one compared to the other is just there. So someone who's produced a basic game mode can't really claim to know everything Hammer/Source can do. Not that i'm saying Josh has only done arena, which he has already said he hasn't. I'm just using it as an example to demonstrate the difference here in what level of knowledge is being applied to any one task/product.

If anything you're comparing learning curves. Hammer is forgiving up to a moderate point, but then you really have to dedicate yourself to produce the best results. Modelling is pretty steap so you have to dedicate resources from the start, but physically and mentally the challenge doesn't evolve or get more complicated. Obviously there is beginner and advanced stuff to learn but... i'll just stop here before i write a goddamn essay about it.

Having worked on 5 iterations of this engine since 2001-2, released DoD maps in 2004, and worked on an on-line cooperative player mod in 2006; then seeing someone who's first map was made official make claims about what's harder, mapping or modelling, is a little shocking to say the least.

No offence.

edit: I just don't want people leaving this thread with the pre-conception that because some novice said so, that one skill is easier than the other, when really no one here is in a position to legitimately make such claims. But i do know that most people underestimate the full extent of Hammer.

I don't know about the most common ways to discredit people's arguments, but I do know about the ones that work properly, and that's to show that whoever is arguing has no idea what they're talking about. Here I'll show you how it works.

You, are a sub par mapper at best, and as far as anyone in the tf2 community knows, you have not made any models worth jack all. You're in no position to act like you're knowledgeable about either, and until you are you really ought to keep quiet about these kind of matters.

 

[Rexy]

Hey Rexy, you know how you were looking for a job?

Heh heh... HEY WAIT A MINUTE... that's more per hour worked than Valve's own model makers get! What the crap?

I have already posted this on facepunch, but I did want to repost this here, since it's more than relevant. There's a lot of complaining going on about this whole issue, but a lot of you are angry about it and has no relevance to you--think about us, the people who've had stuff go official must feel.

From my post on FP:

I made 97 new models and 8 new world textures for the brand new Halloween map (artpass_ym) that will be coming out at the end of this month...in the original paperwork I was only offered $700. I don't know if that was just for legal things or if that's all they thought my entire environment set was worth to them. Either way, I'm not unhappy about it, or jealous that the polycount winners made so much insane money, I'm really happy for them. I didn't create all the new models to get paid, it was a fun expenditure of my time and looks good on my portfolio. This was just a whole statement I wanted to point out, an interesting tidbit to fill in the gaps of this conversation.

So in saying this, I'm not sour at all, but I can understand how the value of source level design is going down... the entire level design process takes a lot more time than it does to make an asset to go in the level, spoken from experience, and Valve demonstrates from the polycount winners (whether they had meant this message to be intentional or not), which skill is more intrinsically valued. Money was never my intention, I wanted to create something absolutely awesome, and have it on my portfolio and resume. But I do understand how other map authors feel about the situation.

 

[grazr]

You're right, My opinion on the matter is moot. I've learned nothing since watchtower.

That's not what i said, but if you're going to be childish and sarcastic then fine.

I don't know about the most common ways to discredit people's arguments, but I do know about the ones that work properly, and that's to show that whoever is arguing has no idea what they're talking about. Here I'll show you how it works.

You, are a sub par mapper at best, and as far as anyone in the tf2 community knows, you have not made any models worth jack all. You're in no position to act like you're knowledgeable about either, and until you are you really ought to keep quiet about these kind of matters.

Interesting first post mr anonymous. Also an interesting point. You are of course entitled to your opinion because after all, that is all that is.

But let me direct you to our local mapping guru A Boojum Snark, whom whilst he has never released a finished mapping project, were you to make that same statement in such a direction you would have most of TF2maps and SPUF up in arms about what bullshit you spew. I am no deity and i have not claimed to be a perfect mapper but i will call someone out when they make statements i believe to be untrue.

I have no idea who you are but since you have apparently only seen half finished TF2 projects of mine i don't think you're in any position to say what for and have undermined your own arguement about who has the right to call foul. If i have to wave my dick at you, and apparently i do, as far as local contests go i manage to score in the top 5-10%; and if i don't know what i'm talking about then surely my numerous tutorials that have seemingly helped so many, are actually tripe. It is dissapointing that my work has recieved little recognition, but such is life. I'll continue to try and improve thanks to the support of people like yourself.

 

[DJive]

Personal attacks seems to be coming out for no reason so lets get that out of this thread.

kthxbai

 

[PL-7764]

That article seems a touch misleading, as they're stating that anyone who submits their stuff through the "Contribute" site and gets it added to the game will receive profits when the items are put on the store. The fact is that, so far, there are NO standard-submitted community items in the store - the ONLY ones there are the special-case Polycount stuff. Everything else is Valve-made. Therefore, the statement "Anyone who's had their self-made items added to the store has made a buttload of money for it" is true, but not clear on the conditions for getting one's items in the store - so far, you would have had to win the Polycount contest to get them in there.

Personally, I think it's fair (albeit definitely jealousy-inducing :O) that the Polycount winners get this insane amount of money as they won a contest and that happens to be part of the prize package. They made the conscious effort to enter the contest, and upon victory, they were rewarded as the contest hosts saw fit. It's different from simply submitting something for use (which perhaps should also give some sort of monetary reward IMHO, after all it's your hard work they're using; but they do at least give you the "self-made" versions of your things and recognition in the community, so...).

As to why the new models being added with the Art Pass Contest don't get as much (I saw it mentioned): models were never the focus of that contest, and as such Valve sees them as a side thing that happens to just come with the map (sad, perhaps, but true). If they pay less to the winning Art Pass mappers, it's because, while the Polycount people's items earned cold hard cash for Valve being sold through the Mann Co. Store, maps are added and distributed for free, thereby making no money for the company, thereby not providing anything to split with the creator(s).


TL;DR - The article forgets to mention that the only community items thus far added to the store have been the contest winners, NOT standard-submitted stuff. The Art Pass Contest wasn't about models, and as unpleasant as it may be to realize it, Valve probably sees any models added as a result of new maps being added as a relatively minor side-addition.

 

[JoshuaC]

That's not what i said, but if you're going to be childish and sarcastic then fine.

Sorry, but whenever I see my name in a post of yours, I simply boil it down to "Baww, watchtower sucks.. Why don't people like my maps?"

This more than anything proves this point to a tee.

Having worked on 5 iterations of this engine since 2001-2, released DoD maps in 2004, and worked on an on-line cooperative player mod in 2006; then seeing someone who's first map was made official make claims about what's harder, mapping or modelling, is a little shocking to say the least.

I think before you claim to be such an expert yourself, you need to have at least some experience in both fields? I'm no expert, and I haven't been modeling long, but there really is no question to which one takes less effort on a per item level.

Not discounting modeling at all. But modeling something, UVing, and texturing it, really doesn't compare to the process it takes to make a map from scratch.

 

[grazr]

Back on topic, i'm surprised the percentage wasn't a more predictably cliché 10%. It would at least seem more reasonable compared to other costs like purchasing maps, but if one off purchases such as maps and map props are considered too low then it's obvious what needs to be done about it. There seems to be no standard rate for this stuff.

I'm a little curious as to how Valve purchase custom maps with custom models though. Is it a flat fee for the map and models are purchased on top, or is the cost of the models included in the flat fee for the map and deducted from the mappers potential fee?

 

[YM]

Back on topic, i'm surprised the percentage wasn't a more predictably cliché 10%. It would at least seem more reasonable compared to other costs like purchasing maps, but if one off purchases such as maps and map props are considered too low then it's obvious what needs to be done about it. There seems to be no standard rate for this stuff.

I'm a little curious as to how Valve purchase custom maps with custom models though. Is it a flat fee for the map and models are purchased on top, or is the cost of the models included in the flat fee for the map and deducted from the mappers potential fee?

Hoodoo - 2500
Hoodoo's models - 100 and 200
Hoodoo's sign overlays - 100

Coldfront - 3000
Coldfront's models - 200 each

Manor - 3000
Manor's models/textures - 700

I asked back in the hoodoo days and they said they have a standard base for a map which is ~2500-3000 I guess it's risen to 3000 now. Then any extra assets are done based off whatever they happen to be.

 

[Eiv Ne]

Interesting first post mr anonymous. Also an interesting point. You are of course entitled to your opinion because after all, that is all that is.

My opinion which I just backed up with indisputable facts?

But let me direct you to our local mapping guru A Boojum Snark, whom whilst he has never released a finished mapping project, were you to make that same statement in such a direction you would have most of TF2maps and SPUF up in arms about what bullshit you spew. I am no deity and i have not claimed to be a perfect mapper but i will call someone out when they make statements i believe to be untrue.

We're discussing you and your ability to make an assessment on the relationships and intricacies of mapping and modeling. Not ABS.

I have no idea who you are but since you have apparently only seen half finished TF2 projects of mine i don't think you're in any position to say what for and have undermined your own arguement about who has the right to call foul.

Wait wait wait, did you just admit to never being able to finish anything?

If i have to wave my dick at you, and apparently i do, as far as local contests go i manage to score in the top 5-10%;

Congratulations, as much as this may come as a surprise to you, the amount of good content developers on this site is astonishingly low. In fact I'd even go so far as to say that the good level creators is maybe 10-15 tops, you're not in it, yet. This is not meant to be insulting, since apparently facts that people don't like are constantly taken as such here. Keep learning, and you'll be there some day.

and if i don't know what i'm talking about then surely my numerous tutorials that have seemingly helped so many, are actually tripe.

If your tutorials have helped so many, why is it that every time I attend one of your gamedays I'm assaulted by pretty awful maps?

It is dissapointing that my work has recieved little recognition, but such is life. I'll continue to try and improve thanks to the support of people like yourself.

I'd love to help, I really would, but I have an opinion, and apparently that's a bannable offense on this site.

Personal attacks seems to be coming out for no reason so lets get that out of this thread.

kthxbai

I agree, lets keep the discussion to facts, not insults.

I'd love an explanation on why my post was infracted, all I did was point out that grazr was not in a position to say what's what on the topic of either. It's properly backed by proof, how does that qualify as an insult?

 

[lana]

I agree, lets keep the discussion to facts, not insults.

I'd love an explanation on why my post was infracted, all I did was point out that grazr was not in a position to say what's what on the topic of either. It's properly backed by proof, how does that qualify as an insult?

Well, I don't know about you but if I were to call someone a sub-par mapper when they have more than zero maps in development is kind of a dick move.

 

[Eiv Ne]

Well, I don't know about you but if I were to call someone a sub-par mapper when they have more than zero maps in development is kind of a dick move.

Saying someone sucks for the sake of saying it is a dick move, putting someone in their place when they're way higher up in their mind is not.

 

[lana]

Saying someone sucks for the sake of saying it is a dick move, putting someone in their place when they're way higher up in their mind is not.

I'll give you that, but it's pretty obvious as to why your post was infracted.

EDIT:

More on that, what makes you so high and mighty as to be able to judge others?

EDIT2:

And your username isn't very original.

 

[grazr]

Hoodoo - 2500
Hoodoo's models - 100 and 200
Hoodoo's sign overlays - 100

Coldfront - 3000
Coldfront's models - 200 each

Manor - 3000
Manor's models/textures - 700

I asked back in the hoodoo days and they said they have a standard base for a map which is ~2500-3000 I guess it's risen to 3000 now. Then any extra assets are done based off whatever they happen to be.

Did your custom paint patches go for 100 too?

 

[YM]

no those were included in the hoodoo value, the others are separated cause they were made by other people.

 

[grazr]

Oh wow, a lot of infractions... D:

 

[fubarFX]

on topic now, weapons generate profits. maps don't. it's that simple. should mappers be getting some of the income generated by new weapons to even the amount of money everybody is getting? I don't think so. Giving less money to modelers isn't a good option either. the only way I can see a map generating profits is by the sell boost tf2 gets from every update. maybe mappers could get a % of tf2 sales during the update period since they helped building the "update hype".