Valve Pays Out to Item Creators
- Thread starter Micnax
- Start date
- Status
- Apr 19, 2009
- 4,460
- 1,724
The real issue I have is that Valve is putting maps farther back in update pages and sometime removing them entirely.
Pre-spy/sniper custom maps were more given their own page but that changed after the scout update.
It started back in spy vs. sniper with Hoodoo being "officially" announced 1 day after the update hit, at the bottom of the page.
Then with Classless, Yukon was the under the change-log on the last page.
Then "War" hit with no custom maps at all. (Supposedly Freight was going to be in this update but was not ready in time, later to be released in a way-word update)
It was the engineer update that really got me. Poor Icarus got nothing but a line in the change log. No blurb, no pictures, nothing.
The recent artpass support redeems Valve a bit but I still feel that Valve could be doing more to promote custom. Its not like they have to buy maps they feature on the blog, just look at the minecraft map!
All I am asking is every once in a while they do a blog post promoting 3-5+ custom maps that are near official quality that the community should pay attention to. Sure the mappers would not get money but they would get something much more valuable; feedback. The map(s) would gain instant popularity and feedback would stream in from all the new servers playing the map. With that feedback in hand the mapper could push the map into the realm of valve quality and greatly improve the chances of getting it official. On top of all that this way convince more people to take a break from their 24/7 2fort servers to try custom server and with any luck they will help push customs to wide spread acceptance!
All and all I could care less about money, I just want customs to have the recognition they deserve!
Pre-spy/sniper custom maps were more given their own page but that changed after the scout update.
It started back in spy vs. sniper with Hoodoo being "officially" announced 1 day after the update hit, at the bottom of the page.
Then with Classless, Yukon was the under the change-log on the last page.
Then "War" hit with no custom maps at all. (Supposedly Freight was going to be in this update but was not ready in time, later to be released in a way-word update)
It was the engineer update that really got me. Poor Icarus got nothing but a line in the change log. No blurb, no pictures, nothing.
The recent artpass support redeems Valve a bit but I still feel that Valve could be doing more to promote custom. Its not like they have to buy maps they feature on the blog, just look at the minecraft map!
All I am asking is every once in a while they do a blog post promoting 3-5+ custom maps that are near official quality that the community should pay attention to. Sure the mappers would not get money but they would get something much more valuable; feedback. The map(s) would gain instant popularity and feedback would stream in from all the new servers playing the map. With that feedback in hand the mapper could push the map into the realm of valve quality and greatly improve the chances of getting it official. On top of all that this way convince more people to take a break from their 24/7 2fort servers to try custom server and with any luck they will help push customs to wide spread acceptance!
All and all I could care less about money, I just want customs to have the recognition they deserve!
Tinker
aa
- Oct 30, 2008
- 672
- 334
I'm not really sure you can just say that, at least not for items that aren't hats. You could also say items are featured on any map at any time, while only one map is being played at a time, and items alter core gameplay strategies while the maps only acknowledge them.
There's a lot to be said for both of them, really, I'd say it's pretty equal.
I agree on the higher quality though, but then again, map quality is a lot harder to gauge than item quality. Whereas the former is a pretty "simple" thing to look at objectively, maps needs to be played over and over to prove their worth or worthlessness.
Plus, people still play dustbowl, for some reason I will never fathom.
Tinker
aa
- Oct 30, 2008
- 672
- 334
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and they are actually doing it!
Just not with TF2, but with L4D.
- Apr 19, 2009
- 4,460
- 1,724
drp
aa
- Oct 25, 2007
- 2,273
- 2,628
PMAvers
L6: Sharp Member
- Jan 29, 2008
- 389
- 142
It's definitely a tricky subject, since selling map-packs just doesn't work in the environment. (And I'm thankful to Valve for that.)
I sort of like the idea of a badge/map-related item that, when sold, gives proceeds to the mapper.
Like a little badge with the busted-up house on it for Coldfront. Dunno if I'd actually want them to have stats like the article mentions... (It talks about having a special effect when you're playing on the map you supported.)
I sort of like the idea of a badge/map-related item that, when sold, gives proceeds to the mapper.
Like a little badge with the busted-up house on it for Coldfront. Dunno if I'd actually want them to have stats like the article mentions... (It talks about having a special effect when you're playing on the map you supported.)
drp
aa
- Oct 25, 2007
- 2,273
- 2,628
they should have a percentage off sale after a map goes official, and award a percentage of those sales (maybe a weekend) to the map creator.
it is indeed a tricky subject and one that should be discussed. i do think map makers don't get compensated enough for the work. but getting your stuff as official content from a major game developers is part of the compensation, i guess.
it is indeed a tricky subject and one that should be discussed. i do think map makers don't get compensated enough for the work. but getting your stuff as official content from a major game developers is part of the compensation, i guess.
I have some comments on this, since I know you're all dying to hear what a non-mapper/modeler thinks. 
Obviously I'm a big fan of custom maps. Specifically I'm a big fan of a couple of custom mappers, including Youme, which I think he's aware of. That doesn't mean I agree with him on this, though. At the time that you agreed to sign the contract you believed it was fair, and I'm sure you were quite happy with the $5500 you've received for something you'd probably have done for free. I know early on in Hoodoo you weren't expecting it to become an official map, anyway. So $5500 is only NOT fair because of the amount received by modelers.
Complaining about the amount of money you receive based on the amount someone else receives later under different conditions makes me think a lot about professional athletes, which isn't a good thing. It also makes me think of people that buy something only to have it go on sale the next day, and then complain about the price they paid. Obviously they felt the price they paid was fair or else they wouldn't have dished out for it at that time.
The big picture issue, obviously, is that customs maps don't make Valve money the same way items do. Sure, they increase sales slightly shortly after each update, but I'm guessing it doesn't even come close to the sales from Polycount items. My solution? Take money generated from keys and distribute it evenly between all mappers with an official map. The money is extra for Valve anyway, and it'd get people to stop complaining about key costs to some extent.
As for the idea that the community values items more than maps, I'd have to agree. There are some of us that value maps more, but I think much of the community is happy playing the same 4-5 map rotation on their favorite servers anyway. The items that they get can be used in any map and any game mode, which makes them "worth" more as well. Finally, they change gameplay, which is the biggest aspect. Certain maps have the ability to change gameplay, but mostly they just provide variations of situations that exist on other maps. Even when they have something groundbreaking it's just in one area and doesn't change the overall dynamic of the round. So based on all that, of course much of the community values new items more than new maps. It's a little unfortunate, but predictable. :/
My recommendation for the mappers: wait and see. Valve is obviously interested in taking care of all of you which is more than I'd say for other game companies. Complaining about it until you see how they handle it won't change anything other than people's opinions about why you map, which I know from chatting with some of you wouldn't be accurate.
Obviously I'm a big fan of custom maps. Specifically I'm a big fan of a couple of custom mappers, including Youme, which I think he's aware of. That doesn't mean I agree with him on this, though. At the time that you agreed to sign the contract you believed it was fair, and I'm sure you were quite happy with the $5500 you've received for something you'd probably have done for free. I know early on in Hoodoo you weren't expecting it to become an official map, anyway. So $5500 is only NOT fair because of the amount received by modelers.
Complaining about the amount of money you receive based on the amount someone else receives later under different conditions makes me think a lot about professional athletes, which isn't a good thing. It also makes me think of people that buy something only to have it go on sale the next day, and then complain about the price they paid. Obviously they felt the price they paid was fair or else they wouldn't have dished out for it at that time.
The big picture issue, obviously, is that customs maps don't make Valve money the same way items do. Sure, they increase sales slightly shortly after each update, but I'm guessing it doesn't even come close to the sales from Polycount items. My solution? Take money generated from keys and distribute it evenly between all mappers with an official map. The money is extra for Valve anyway, and it'd get people to stop complaining about key costs to some extent.
As for the idea that the community values items more than maps, I'd have to agree. There are some of us that value maps more, but I think much of the community is happy playing the same 4-5 map rotation on their favorite servers anyway. The items that they get can be used in any map and any game mode, which makes them "worth" more as well. Finally, they change gameplay, which is the biggest aspect. Certain maps have the ability to change gameplay, but mostly they just provide variations of situations that exist on other maps. Even when they have something groundbreaking it's just in one area and doesn't change the overall dynamic of the round. So based on all that, of course much of the community values new items more than new maps. It's a little unfortunate, but predictable. :/
My recommendation for the mappers: wait and see. Valve is obviously interested in taking care of all of you which is more than I'd say for other game companies. Complaining about it until you see how they handle it won't change anything other than people's opinions about why you map, which I know from chatting with some of you wouldn't be accurate.
Last edited:
- Jul 31, 2009
- 1,590
- 410
This is a place where we see the difference between economists and psychologists. People are naturally wired to care about "fairness". When the next guy comes along and gets a 10x better deal than I just made, I'm pissed because it seems whoever I made a deal with has exploited unequal access to information (esp. valuation of asserts or services) and has harmed me by denying the "real" value of whatever I traded away.
Normatively speaking, civilized transactions are not actually about finding ways to screw the other guy over and come out ahead (gasp!) but about discovering and resolving the real value of things so that a equitable trade can be accomplished.
There's nothing "micro" about any of the transactions involved here.
Last edited:
You are all missing the point. Well, maybe not all of you, but I had to start skimming.
For maps, there is one purchaser: Valve. For these items, there are thousand upon thousands of purchasers.
Modelers aren't getting more money because anyone thinks they deserve more money or because anyone thinks what they do is harder. Modelers are getting more money because you can directly buy their handiwork!
If maps were put into the game and you could only play them if you crafted them or found them, or unlocked in an achievement, then I am sure a ton of people would buy your maps in the store. But they aren't, because that's stupid. I think it was YM that said he'd prefer new maps to new weapons because new maps keep the game going. That's true! You think Valve could pull this shit with maps? Hell no.
And remember another thing: these were highly anticipated weapons and hats. The set bonuses made them even more desirable on top of the wait. It makes sense that a lot of people would buy them in the first two weeks. But you know, I bet the sales are going to start to drop.
I agree that custom maps need more showing off. The fact that Coldfront got nothing more than a line in the changelog shocked me. But your collective annoyance with Valve over the fact that people bought the Polycount items is misguided and stupid.
For maps, there is one purchaser: Valve. For these items, there are thousand upon thousands of purchasers.
Modelers aren't getting more money because anyone thinks they deserve more money or because anyone thinks what they do is harder. Modelers are getting more money because you can directly buy their handiwork!
If maps were put into the game and you could only play them if you crafted them or found them, or unlocked in an achievement, then I am sure a ton of people would buy your maps in the store. But they aren't, because that's stupid. I think it was YM that said he'd prefer new maps to new weapons because new maps keep the game going. That's true! You think Valve could pull this shit with maps? Hell no.
And remember another thing: these were highly anticipated weapons and hats. The set bonuses made them even more desirable on top of the wait. It makes sense that a lot of people would buy them in the first two weeks. But you know, I bet the sales are going to start to drop.
I agree that custom maps need more showing off. The fact that Coldfront got nothing more than a line in the changelog shocked me. But your collective annoyance with Valve over the fact that people bought the Polycount items is misguided and stupid.
Last edited by a moderator:
$5500 is nearly twice what they got. Coldfront was bought for $3000, Hoodoo for $2500. No map has sold for more than $3000.
PL-7764
L6: Sharp Member
- Aug 4, 2009
- 376
- 84
I guess my earlier post got lost as it was made in the midst of people attacking each other...
Keep in mind that the only people currently being paid for their models are THE CONTEST WINNERS, NOT just some random people who submitted items. As of yet, the ONLY community items in the store, and therefore the only ones making any money for the creators, are the Polycount items, which were added as winners of a competition. Thereby, any money gained is merely part of the prize package. The fact that the creators of contest-winning items are being paid does not in ANY way reflect standard Valve policy regarding any other method or circumstance of addition of community-made weapons/hats.
As far as I can tell, those who submit through the "Contribute" site don't get paid in cash for their items. Map makers get paid for their maps when they are added, but modelers outside of the competition do not get paid. Therefore, Valve realizes and acknowledges the increased effort that goes into mapping versus modeling, and the Polycount contest is a special case.
Keep in mind that the only people currently being paid for their models are THE CONTEST WINNERS, NOT just some random people who submitted items. As of yet, the ONLY community items in the store, and therefore the only ones making any money for the creators, are the Polycount items, which were added as winners of a competition. Thereby, any money gained is merely part of the prize package. The fact that the creators of contest-winning items are being paid does not in ANY way reflect standard Valve policy regarding any other method or circumstance of addition of community-made weapons/hats.
As far as I can tell, those who submit through the "Contribute" site don't get paid in cash for their items. Map makers get paid for their maps when they are added, but modelers outside of the competition do not get paid. Therefore, Valve realizes and acknowledges the increased effort that goes into mapping versus modeling, and the Polycount contest is a special case.
Valve has already decided on some way to integrate levels and level assets into the game economy. Expect to see it maybe in the next two weeks (Valve Time). They aren't willing to share any details yet, but they are working on some means by which to allow level designers and content creators to get in on the benefits the economy is giving to item modelers.
PL-7764
L6: Sharp Member
- Aug 4, 2009
- 376
- 84
Then why weren't any of the other community items added to the store? Why are the Polycount ones featured so prominently there? Why was such a big deal made by Valve about the connection between the Mann-Conomy and the Polycount Packs?
I say the contest victory has everything to do with their items being sold.
Icarus
aa
- Sep 10, 2008
- 2,245
- 1,210
- Status