TF2Maps.net Mapping Contest #5: The Art Pass Contest
- Thread starter zpqrei
- Start date
Can you guys please sort this out.. its coming across as very unprofessional and to be honest I'm losing confidence in how this competition is being run..
If zpq is reading his pms but not replying then what has been going on during grace week?.. some of the posts I've seen from some people give the impression they have been mapping as usual for this last week when I had the distinct impression that grace week was just for special cases where cubemapps hadn't been included or if texutres or models weren't packed..
If Owlruler is compiling the pack that'll be sent to Valve then where is the communication between he and zpq? Why is he posting vuage posts of 'I dont have 3 maps'??.. mine was originally uploaded to megaupload then I changed the link at zpqs request. Is my map one of the missing ones? I'd hope not.
Too many people have spent too much time on their entries for them to be left wondering if their entry has even been properly received and forwarded..
I would suggest that Owlruler posts a sticky in the contest forum with a list of maps that are being sent to Valve also indicating which maps have been allowed to be modified since the competition closed last week.. Maybe we should be able to download the pack and check our maps for ourselves before its sent to Valve? from what Ive seen with people posting their updated download links all over the place there is going to be issues..
If zpq is reading his pms but not replying then what has been going on during grace week?.. some of the posts I've seen from some people give the impression they have been mapping as usual for this last week when I had the distinct impression that grace week was just for special cases where cubemapps hadn't been included or if texutres or models weren't packed..
If Owlruler is compiling the pack that'll be sent to Valve then where is the communication between he and zpq? Why is he posting vuage posts of 'I dont have 3 maps'??.. mine was originally uploaded to megaupload then I changed the link at zpqs request. Is my map one of the missing ones? I'd hope not.
Too many people have spent too much time on their entries for them to be left wondering if their entry has even been properly received and forwarded..
I would suggest that Owlruler posts a sticky in the contest forum with a list of maps that are being sent to Valve also indicating which maps have been allowed to be modified since the competition closed last week.. Maybe we should be able to download the pack and check our maps for ourselves before its sent to Valve? from what Ive seen with people posting their updated download links all over the place there is going to be issues..
- Jul 31, 2009
- 1,590
- 410
This confuses me.
You need to have your custom files in the right place while you develop anyway. Otherwise you can't see or select anything in Hammer, and starting up TF2 to run around the BSP leaves you a map that's too fugly to work with.
Just run PackBsp before you move everything off into a separate unfindable folder on your hard-drive, instead of after.
Myself, I just have a separate "tf" folder which I swap in when I want to check that things packed correctly.
I said numerous times before, just send me a bug report with the log, and I can try to figure out what's wrong and fix it. All I'm hearing is "it sucks" with no actionable details.
Only if you told PackBsp to overwrite the file. It should be renaming it, and then bspzip (which requires steam for some stupid reason) fails to create a new one in the original name.
An lst for bspzip? People asked for that.
That's why in the later screens there's this huge text-box. Copy-paste it into notepad. Copy-paste the text into notepad. Save it wherever you want.
If the scan worked 100%, you wouldn't need to "add folders" or "fix paths", because it would find the asset using the same rules the Source engine does. (i.e. through one or more paths defined in gameinfo.txt.)
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I find it hard to take an arguement about the short falls of staff seriously when you yourself have failed to read and comply with the contest rules. The rules stated to not use mega-upload, yet you still used it: i have no sympathy if your map is in fact left out of the final submission list. That is your mistake, not the TF2maps' mods short fall.
You should also understand that you probably only know half the story about "what's going on" since communication between (and with) mods is usually private. So ranting about "the state of things" when you don't actually understand the full state of things is just silly.
If people have been mapping like normal during this grace period they will potentially be disqualified; and has nothing to do with the staffs possibly lacking communication/alertness.
Those PM's ZPQ recieved were made today only hours before the final deadline; and he has to compile the growing list only moments before he sends off the entire pack. Thus it is reasonable to assume he may not have time to make these grace-submissions publicly available if and when they are finally updated, and respond to these PM's on an individual basis; particularly since there's almost no need to do so beyond the curtesy of giving a reciept. If it is clear you have abided by the rules and deadlines and your map is still left out of the final submission list then you can obviously make an appeal.
The list of pre-grace maps is already up and only after the post-grace period can ZPQ make a definitive list of successful entries, rest assured he has watched his inbox until the last minute (since that was his job). Only afterwards can you legitimately start making such serious accusations. You yourself could have made his job easier by complying with the rules in the first place, vicariously avoiding the source of concern that warranted you asking this very question of doubt.
You should be thanking ZPQ that you had the opportunity to participate in such an unprecidented TF2 mapping contest since without his personal involvement it would never have even happened.
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sniprpenguin
L6: Sharp Member
- Mar 14, 2008
- 266
- 258
I'd like to just say that I had pm'd ZPQ back on Saturday a few hours after the contest ended, asking him directly if I can make changes A, B, C, or D to my entry without fear of getting disqualified. Even a "A and B are fine" would have sufficed. I never got a response. I ended up doing A and B on my list, but complete silence to a direct question? Not the best form in my opinion.
I would like to state that this contest has been a wonderful opportunity and great practice, but this whole thing has really cemented my opinion of this community as of late.
Ravidge/Nine made a sticky out lining the rules regarding that specific rule (now removed)?
ZPQ must have been recieving hundreds of these requests... i was certainly recieving tens of them and i had nothing to do with the contests running. I even had several people hounding me daily about whether or not their contests were stretching the layout rules too far.
ZPQ must have been recieving hundreds of these requests... i was certainly recieving tens of them and i had nothing to do with the contests running. I even had several people hounding me daily about whether or not their contests were stretching the layout rules too far.
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sniprpenguin
L6: Sharp Member
- Mar 14, 2008
- 266
- 258
I guess I should clarify, I was asking about changes made DURING THE GRACE PERIOD. Not layout changes made during the official time. You know, stuff that we should PM ZPQ about, as per the rules.
Owlruler
L12: Fabulous Member
- Dec 10, 2008
- 964
- 275
Okay, I now have every map, along with all the updated versions that zpq passed on to me.
I'll be making a list of all the maps that are in the pack along with which ones were updated shortly, and I'll edit this post with that list.
Here is the list: link.
I'm mainly waiting on zpq so I know which ones he passed on to me for me to update. But the main list is done. Please send me a PM if your map is not there.
I'll be making a list of all the maps that are in the pack along with which ones were updated shortly, and I'll edit this post with that list.
Here is the list: link.
I'm mainly waiting on zpq so I know which ones he passed on to me for me to update. But the main list is done. Please send me a PM if your map is not there.
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Mr. Happy
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 16, 2008
- 320
- 158
Terr I feel awful about insulting your hard work. When I first used PackBSP it frustrated me greatly. As for the blob error, it may be because I have some permanently paused downloads. I have not been fair. Let me try and explain my beef better:
my workflow is like this: compile map -> move map & custom assets to a seperate TF folder -> pack assets -> copy map back to maps folder. I do it in this order because of times in which I've corrupted cubemaps and entire bsp's fiddling with pack operations. Doing this lets me keep the mapsrc and maps folders bsp's until the pack succeeds.
Now, let's say I scan for assets and it misses a few things, I then have to hunt down what it missed and hope that I don't break the bsp with a second pack operation. If the bsp breaks then it's trial and error from there, having to repack stuff in a new copy of the bsp until it works.
However, if I simply keep my assets in folders on a per-map basis then all I have to do is select the folders and I know for a fact that nothing is being missed.
Please except my humble apology for calling your work crap, it is not crap, it simply doesn't fit my workflow. Scan function scares me. As soon as I get used to using scan function bsp's start breaking. In the end I've spent less time per map manually packing assets on a per folder basis than using scan.
As for name fixup, this would actually I think fix most of the problems I have with packbsp. Let's say, for example, that you scan and it misses five assets. You remove the assets from your folder and notice that. With name fixup you can add the assets to the bsp from where you moved them to easily.
It all has to do with redundancy, have had many problems over the years so I developed a workflow, and that workflow is slower if I use packbsp. Even if packbsp has a 100% successful scan it would still take more clicks to use since it's broken into several screens.
One last time let me apologize, you must have worked very hard on this and you did do a very good job. It simply doesn't do what I want it to. It does everything at a minimum level, which in theory is fine, but in the real world, in practical situations, things don't always perform as well as you think they will.
I am scared about using a manual add operation after using the scan add operation on the same bsp. The reason I want export pak is that I have a map with six versions, six game modes.
If everything was on one screen and you had five buttons, "Open" "Save" "Scan" "Manual Add" "Export," could add folders and could it had automatic name fixup it would be perfect. As it is people still have troubles with the scan feature and the lack of these other features means that it takes more work to fix a failed scan than to not use it in the first place. Maybe an analogy would be good. To me, packbsp is like a family sedan with an automatic transition while packrat is like a sports car with an automatic transition that occassionally rips itself apart in a firey explosion.
Just because a feature might seem redundant in the face of scanning doesn't mean it doesn't have it's uses.
I intend to finish my paused downloads on steam overnight so that I can reevaulate packbsp.
my workflow is like this: compile map -> move map & custom assets to a seperate TF folder -> pack assets -> copy map back to maps folder. I do it in this order because of times in which I've corrupted cubemaps and entire bsp's fiddling with pack operations. Doing this lets me keep the mapsrc and maps folders bsp's until the pack succeeds.
Now, let's say I scan for assets and it misses a few things, I then have to hunt down what it missed and hope that I don't break the bsp with a second pack operation. If the bsp breaks then it's trial and error from there, having to repack stuff in a new copy of the bsp until it works.
However, if I simply keep my assets in folders on a per-map basis then all I have to do is select the folders and I know for a fact that nothing is being missed.
Please except my humble apology for calling your work crap, it is not crap, it simply doesn't fit my workflow. Scan function scares me. As soon as I get used to using scan function bsp's start breaking. In the end I've spent less time per map manually packing assets on a per folder basis than using scan.
As for name fixup, this would actually I think fix most of the problems I have with packbsp. Let's say, for example, that you scan and it misses five assets. You remove the assets from your folder and notice that. With name fixup you can add the assets to the bsp from where you moved them to easily.
It all has to do with redundancy, have had many problems over the years so I developed a workflow, and that workflow is slower if I use packbsp. Even if packbsp has a 100% successful scan it would still take more clicks to use since it's broken into several screens.
One last time let me apologize, you must have worked very hard on this and you did do a very good job. It simply doesn't do what I want it to. It does everything at a minimum level, which in theory is fine, but in the real world, in practical situations, things don't always perform as well as you think they will.
I am scared about using a manual add operation after using the scan add operation on the same bsp. The reason I want export pak is that I have a map with six versions, six game modes.
If everything was on one screen and you had five buttons, "Open" "Save" "Scan" "Manual Add" "Export," could add folders and could it had automatic name fixup it would be perfect. As it is people still have troubles with the scan feature and the lack of these other features means that it takes more work to fix a failed scan than to not use it in the first place. Maybe an analogy would be good. To me, packbsp is like a family sedan with an automatic transition while packrat is like a sports car with an automatic transition that occassionally rips itself apart in a firey explosion.
Just because a feature might seem redundant in the face of scanning doesn't mean it doesn't have it's uses.
I intend to finish my paused downloads on steam overnight so that I can reevaulate packbsp.
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grazr, don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate this competition and the personal time zpq and the other mods have taken to make it happen.
I understand that there is behind the scenes communication taking place between the mods but there are people posting in different places with their new download links for their post grace time maps. People have posted that they have sent pms and have not gotten replies and zpq himself has posted saying he's read his pms but not replied in many cases.. For an outsider looking in it makes you wonder what is really going on. I'll put my hand up and admit that maybe I'm guilty of blowing it a bit out of proportion. All I was asking for is an update so everyone knows where they stand.
Twice you suggested that I myself have somehow contributed to the issue by not reading or following the rules. I've had no need to use the grace week for anything. I uploaded my map on time 100% complete, cubemaps built and all custom content included. Nowhere in the contest rules, faq or upload thread does it state which upload services should or shouldn't be used.. As I said in my post zpq pm'ed me and I changed it straight away..
I used mega upload because I can easily check how many times my map has been downloaded and because it uses unique links. I get that its a shitty site to use because of the download counter etc. Something to maybe consider for future comps is sites that don't use unique links allow the uploader to interchange their file for submission allowing them to update their entry so long as the file name doesn't change. Sure they take a gamble on when their submission will be downloaded, but still..
My post was intended to be helpful. With such a high profile competition I would have thought that you guys would want to represent this site and its community in the best possible light. I was simply pointing out that there seems to be some level of confusion and suggesting how it could be cleared up. I apologise if I came across as 'having a go'.
Thanks Owlruler for posting an update. I look forward to playing the final pack of maps.
I understand that there is behind the scenes communication taking place between the mods but there are people posting in different places with their new download links for their post grace time maps. People have posted that they have sent pms and have not gotten replies and zpq himself has posted saying he's read his pms but not replied in many cases.. For an outsider looking in it makes you wonder what is really going on. I'll put my hand up and admit that maybe I'm guilty of blowing it a bit out of proportion. All I was asking for is an update so everyone knows where they stand.
Twice you suggested that I myself have somehow contributed to the issue by not reading or following the rules. I've had no need to use the grace week for anything. I uploaded my map on time 100% complete, cubemaps built and all custom content included. Nowhere in the contest rules, faq or upload thread does it state which upload services should or shouldn't be used.. As I said in my post zpq pm'ed me and I changed it straight away..
I used mega upload because I can easily check how many times my map has been downloaded and because it uses unique links. I get that its a shitty site to use because of the download counter etc. Something to maybe consider for future comps is sites that don't use unique links allow the uploader to interchange their file for submission allowing them to update their entry so long as the file name doesn't change. Sure they take a gamble on when their submission will be downloaded, but still..
My post was intended to be helpful. With such a high profile competition I would have thought that you guys would want to represent this site and its community in the best possible light. I was simply pointing out that there seems to be some level of confusion and suggesting how it could be cleared up. I apologise if I came across as 'having a go'.
Thanks Owlruler for posting an update. I look forward to playing the final pack of maps.
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Owlruler:
I made some changes last week (post submission, pre-grace) that involved missing textures. You may want to update my file (same URL). I PM'd ZPQ last Sundayish about it and (like everyone else) never got a response, so sometime around Wednesday I just went ahead and re-uploaded my file. It should be 76 MB in size (there were a bunch of textures that didn't get auto-scanned).
Try throwing one of the swamp water textures in your map and using PakRat. It will crash and die because it will be unable to recover from the circular reference (the swamp/water/water_murky vmt references itself). PackBSP recovers. Sure, it has its problems, but unless you send a bug report they'll never be fixed.
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TF2maps has a download section where you can upload your map for free and without hassle. It also lets you know how many times your map has been downloaded, isn't speed capped, doesn't bombard you with adds nor requires a wait time to be downloaded.
I could have sworn there was a post that specifically outlined not to use mega-upload or rapid-share where passwords and/or wait times are required to access the file.
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Scotland Tom
L6: Sharp Member
- Jan 19, 2008
- 332
- 64
I may not have been a participant, but I do see some potential areas of improvement for future contests (communication, organization, submission guidelines and the like), but all in all I think the positives outweigh the negatives and I'd like to see (and perhaps participate) in other similar contests in the future.
As a spectator of the Artpass contest I have to say that overall I've really enjoyed everything so far. Checking in daily to see the maps in progress and be inspired by some of the creative talent the entrants are sharing with us has been a blast. There are at least a half dozen solid entries that I wouldn't mind seeing win. The contest has inspired me as a (part-time hobbyist) mapper and I think when all is said and done it will have been a great success.
As a spectator of the Artpass contest I have to say that overall I've really enjoyed everything so far. Checking in daily to see the maps in progress and be inspired by some of the creative talent the entrants are sharing with us has been a blast. There are at least a half dozen solid entries that I wouldn't mind seeing win. The contest has inspired me as a (part-time hobbyist) mapper and I think when all is said and done it will have been a great success.
sniprpenguin
L6: Sharp Member
- Mar 14, 2008
- 266
- 258
That list says mine wasn't updated, so I'm guessing an old version is being used? Just FYI, the two versions were available through the same link (My bad on that one).
Well it was a pleasure gents.