CP Snowbase b20

[Idolon]

b13 s2

STAGE 2 ONLY VERSION

OVERALL:
-Raised some ceiling stuff to reduce head bumping

B:
-Shortened blue respawn wave time from 3s to 2s
-Moved blue forward spawn to further forward location to reduce walk times. Kept old room as a branch just in case of spawncamping
-(Previous two notes make respawn times and walk times more or less identical to Gorge B)
-Split flank into two different routes to give each option more importance. One route now goes directly to back balcony while other goes to point
-Removed side room from main route to simplify push
-Moved health/ammo in lower pyramid room to new cubby
-Added health/ammo to garage right before pyramid room
-Removed health from B sentry cubby

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[Idolon]

b14 s2

STAGE 2 ONLY VERSION

A:
-Nobuilt air conditioning units
-Reduced ammo at far roof flank to small

B:
-Mirrored point room
-Widened main route to point
-Moved flank to far side of lobby
-Reworked in-room balconies at point
-Removed medium health from garage, moved medium ammo to far stair landing
-Moved pyramid room health and ammo back to computers
-Reduced ammo at pyramid room red side balcony to small
-Enlarged ammo in flank to medium, added small elsewhere



This is a bit of an experimental version with a major change to B. I'm not 100% confident and may undo it if things don't work out.

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[Idolon]

b14a s2

STAGE 2 ONLY VERSION

OVERALL:
-Misc detailing, clipping

B:
-Change prop stack in pyramid room to make prop climb more visible
-Added a fence to flank
-Removed a fence from flank
-Added glass wall at far B flank to nerf bombing
-Moved arrow sign in B forward to reduce confusion
-Moved stairs forward at red spawn to aid teleporter placement
-Move health/ammo in pyramid room further forward to give blue a more aggressive hold
-Add medium health to flank to hopefully benefit blue?
-Move small health in flank far balcony to a more protected position

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[Idolon]

I didn't make a post about b14, but I went ahead with mirroring B and moved the flank to the outside. Here's a flow diagram of what B looks like now:

It seems like a better overall design, though it needs balance tweaking, as playtesting right now seems to indicate blue is having a hard time getting into the flank. The gameplay seems more focused and intense, which I want. The main choke is now also twice as wide as it used to be, and gameplay there seems more fun than the previous version. (I say "seems" because I can't play TF2 right now. I accidentally sliced my finger open! I am doing okay, but I cannot WASD.) Players can run across main to take stairs up to the balcony (which then leads into flank) or run even further across directly into the flank.

The flank area itself is roughly the same size as the old flank, which I did to try and ensure that the area was easy for teams to clear of enemies. Most intermediate walls in the area are fences for the same reason. I also brought back the far high ground route into B, which is considerably smaller than it was in b11 and older.

There are a lot of options in and out of B now. I'm not sure if this is too much, but it should be easy to simplify further down the line as necessary.

 

[Idolon]

a15 s2

STAGE 2 ONLY VERSION

OVERALL:
-Swapped health/ammo patch colors so white is health and red/yellow is ammo

A:
-Removed ammo from cliff flank room
-Moved large health / medium ammo combo in lower connector more out of the way
-Reduced health on far flank to small
-Patched build spot in blue spawn
-Moved blue forward spawn to ground level to remove perch/tele spot on roof

B:
-Raised A cap time reward from 4:30 to 5:00
-Moved pyramid room bridge to opposite side of room
-Added stairs to pyramid room for easy access between high and low ground for blue to help avoid splitting the team up too heavily
-Reworked blue routing to flank for clarity and ease of use
-Removed fence from far balcony flank route to make it easier to clear
-Reduced health in pyramid room balcony to small
-Removed health near garage door in flank
-Removed ammo behind servers in point room, moved health to other side

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[Idolon]

I've decided that the lobby before B is too complex for red to comfortably clear. The high ground is a total blind spot that red has no way of pressuring directly, so blue can easily slip past a red push up top.

The end result is that red doesn't want to push, so all gameplay happens in the B room itself. I want to simplify this lobby a bit and make it easier for red to clear, which I plan on doing by simplifying the flank and adjusting parts of lobby for better overall visibility. Here's a rough idea of what that might look like:

I'm hoping this also makes the lower route more desirable for blue players. A long hallway into a choke like this is a hard commit, so bringing blue's main corner for peeking / retreating closer to the choke should allow them to more easily apply pressure.

In addition, I think I can bring back the red high ground route in the flank. This was removed because, at the time, red could too easily clear lobby by pressuring the high ground. Now that blue has a quicker rotation up, this might not be such an issue, as blue can more comfortably apply counter-pressure.

 

[Idolon]

b16 s2

STAGE 2 ONLY VERSION

-Added resupply to blue spawn

A:
-Added hazard tape
-Added small ammo under point

B:
-Reworked pyramid room layout for clarity
-Moved blue high ground route into flank back to old location, hopefully makes more sense with other changes
-Rerouted for easier red access to flank, blue access to back balcony
-Adjusted cover at main entrance

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[Idolon]

b17 s2

STAGE 2 ONLY VERSION

B:
-High ground route now only goes to flank
-Reworked flank to be a more interesting gameplay space with better visibility / clarity and different detailing
-Reworked point flank area to introduce secondary sentry nest location, simplify routing
-Replaced point to add cover to the gameplay space
-Reduced cap time from 10 to 8

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[Idolon]

b18

-Added side room to cave flank on Stage 2 B
-Modified soundscapes to be less grating
-General polish in preparation for Workshop update

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[Idolon]

b3 > b18 Changelog (Workshop update)

Stage 1 A:
-Adjustments to ammo packs at point to nerf engineer stacks

Stage 1 B:
-Reworked flank area behind point to add more gameplay space and offensive / defensive options, as well as a new route from red spawn
-Added grate to area under bridge to combat spawncamping and make sewer route safer but still visible
-Changed sewer route from dropdown to stair
-Added small ammo to sewer for spies
-Added rock to main blue push area for cover
-Replaced rock with large tank to make clipping and sightlines more predictable
-Added bridge to far blue flank

Stage 2 A:
-Added small ammo to cliff route for spies
-Removed ammo from cliff flank basement to nerf camping pyros
-Added nobuild to air conditioning units to prevent cheeky teleporters

Stage 2 B:
-Flipped entirety of point room for sightline management and to move flank so that red cannot sneak behind the main blue setup easily
-Changed point to pedestal design to provide cover and create more dynamic battles around the point
-Removed high grounds on either side of point, added new high ground to end of room opposite red spawn
-Added large "playground" flank area to provide blue access to new high ground and far flank
-Added new closet near point to give red engineers more options
-Simplified main choke to make battles less chaotic
-Relocated stairs to lobby for ease of use
-Added new stairs from garage to lobby high ground for clarity / ease of use
-Relocated blue forward spawn to reduce walk times and lead players in the right direction

 

[Idolon]

So, B18 has gotten some plays, both on TF2M casuals and on other servers. How is the win rate statistic holding up? If you'll remember the previous graph, there was a pretty clear trend showing that blue was beginning to mostly win the first stage:

Here's how B18 is doing:

I am living in Hell!

The best explanation I can come up with is that the layout of stage 1 requires learning, and blue gets better at the map as they understand the layout better. This would explain why, with beta 4 through 9 all being tested in succession, the blue win rate got better, but the blue win rate tanked again when players were less familiar with the layout.

So, in theory, the blue win rate should stabilize itself back to where I want it as people play the map more and learn the layout. Maybe that was true before I started revising the layout. Not sure! Maybe the win rate isn't a problem.

Except, I still see another problem - I've spent a lot of time on this project, and I would like people to actually play the map, and first impressions are pretty important. People aren't going to stick around if they aren't having fun in the first few rounds.

To that end, I'm going to continue developing stage 1 and try to make it more streamlined; something that will play better the first time round. I'll hold off on stage 2 until I have a reason to mess with it. In the interest of not bloating my number of beta versions, any future layout change versions will be epsilon, or "e" for "experimental." Beta will be reserved for workshop releases.

 

[Idolon]

There's some confusion as to why the graph above indicates that stage 1 is too hard and not that stage 2 is too easy, so I'm going to clarify things a bit.

When balancing a multi-stage map, there's a few things to consider:
1) Stages should increase in difficulty for the attacking team. If a prior stage is more difficult than a later stage, then blue teams that beat the first stage will almost certainly beat the next as well.
2) The final stage should be balanced around the final, overall win rate you want for the map, which is probably 50/50. The only time this does not hold true is when rule 1 (ascending difficulty) is not followed.

So, with that in mind, let's look at the chart:

What this chart tells us is:
1) Stage 2 is easier than stage 1. If a blue team wins stage 1, they always win stage 2.
2) The win rate of stage 1 is 30%.
3) The win rate of stage 2 is unknown.

For the sake of example, let's assume stage 2 has a 50% win rate. Here's a graph showing the rough probability that a given team will win each stage:

What's important to note that the probability shown here for winning stage 2 is the win rate if stage 2 is played on its own, not the probability that they win after stage 1. This is an important distinction. Assume that blue wins stage 1 - this means they are in the top 30% of all possible blue teams. To win stage 2, they must be in the top 50% - which they are, so they will likely win stage 2 as well.

Now let's look at an example of a better balanced map, where the win rate of stage 1 is 75%:

Here, if blue wins stage 1, then they are in the top 75% of blue teams. To win stage 2, they must be in the top 50%. This means that blue teams in the 50%-1% range will win, and teams in the 51% to 75% range will lose. Teams in the 75%-100% range will not reach stage 2 (because they lost stage 1) and therefore do not count. Because we are missing that 75%-100% range of teams from the sample of stage 2, the win rate of stage 2 after stage 1 is 67%, even though the win rate of stage 2 by itself is 50%.

Hopefully that made sense!

 

[Idolon]

Idolon updated Snowbase with a new update entry:

e1

STAGE 1 ONLY VERSION

B:
-rotated 90 degrees to shorten walk times and improve overall flow
-moved point from elevator to bridge to shorten blue push to point
-changed elevator to act as high ground, reworked flanks to accommodate
-simplified spaghetti in flank
-removed some stairs to restrict red rotations
-removed the water area (reduced extents of water)
-removed barrier under bridge to allow for additional Sneaky Gameplay and hopefully not cause spawncamping issues again
-shortened...

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[Idolon]

Idolon updated Snowbase with a new update entry:

e1a

STAGE 1 ONLY VERSION

B:
-added big sliding door at cave entrance to provide better blue engie setup area
-shifted tank cover 128 units towards bridge to provide better forward cover
-closed a window
-reduced ammo on bridge from full to medium
-other misc kit updates
-better lighting
-better clipping
-columns in elevator flank area
-deepened water under bridge to allow extinguishing

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[Idolon]

Idolon updated Snowbase with a new update entry:

e2

STAGE 1 ONLY VERSION

-removed realtime reflections
-made soundscape machines quieter

A:
-removed fence from point to make it easier to clear
-moved health and ammo in building upper level closer to blue side to make red engie setups more difficult

B:
-closed some windows for performance (they were not useful)

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[Idolon]

Idolon updated Snowbase with a new update entry:

e3

STAGE 1 ONLY VERSION

A:
-point rework to make sentry spots and red holds in general more obvious (easier for red to setup, and easier for blue to predict & push)
-reduced cap time from 17 to 12
-replaced some rocks with ones that don't have shit collision models

B:
-removed a stair for red because its a cringe sniper spot
-added health and ammo spot near elevator for riskier sentry hold

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[Idolon]

Idolon updated Snowbase with a new update entry:

e4

STAGE 1 ONLY VERSION

B:
-moved health and ammo in low flank area closer to blue
-adjusted cover to make sniper less powerful
-removed caution tape from elevator

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[Idolon]

Idolon updated Snowbase with a new update entry:

e4a

fixed some accidental regressions

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[Idolon]

Idolon updated Snowbase with a new update entry:

e5

STAGE 1 ONLY VERSION

OVERALL:
-made most 128 tall doorways 160 tall instead to stop headbumping

A:
-changed full ammo at point to medium

A/B connector:
-garage route to A is now a dropdown for blue, allowing them to more easily apply pressure on the main choke
-added another little high ground route for blue

B:
-changed big oil tank to shed to make it easier to kill soldiers on top
-changed ammo on far flank balcony from medium to full

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[Tiftid]

Wow, 100 posts in this thread. This map is definitely eligible for the "Labor of Love" steam award.
Congrats on getting into the Uncletopia community maplist, too!