How it started with Quarry
I was looking at a lot of pl and koth maps in December. Since pl takes the longest and UGC is waiting on a couple people to create or update their maps, I had some time between to focus on koth. Koth is the easiest to fix and get right compared to other gamemodes. UGC’s koth map pool is very weak, koth_pro_viaduct_rc4 and koth_lakeside_final are the 2 highest rated koth maps we play. After that there’s a big drop off with koth_ashville and koth_arctic(which we can’t play due to fps).
We just introduced Scorpio’s koth_coalplant_b7 this season which is a revisited cp_ashville. A lot of people were getting tired of either lakeside or viaduct. I’m not a fan of stagnation and trying to get maps in that people like once fully playtested. So basically we have 3 options for koth if Scorpio’s coalplant works out since it replaces ashville in a way. It seems like people enjoyed it this season, but that will be added in our map vote to determine how much people liked it. We do that every spring where leaders can vote, sent the last one to Valve last year and they loved it.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#0
So many levels which is nice to see
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#1
Highest point of the map
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#2
Very nice
Do I think there can be better koth maps than lakeside or viaduct? Absolutely! For pubs or comp. After browsing around the TF2Maps.net library, I was going back to the Map Workshop subforum and was looking around for recent updates.
What I thought about Quarry_b6
The map pictures brought this smile to my face just by looking at it. Downloaded the map on December 21st, created a server and just started to walk around on it. I’ve never seen a map like this with so much height! It’s literally pushing the limits and mappers should take a look if you haven’t already. This is a very unique koth map with many heights, point not centered, death pit, and so much going on at once. Usually I can compare maps to others or a mixture of maps, but I can’t on this one!
Quarry was pretty far along and almost completed even for a beta stage map. There were some problems I could see right away with the map. The death pit, which I liked and fits the map perfectly it just needed some areas preventing to drop down. I always try to go back to maps like cp_steel with point E and thinking it’s okay to have that stuff in a map if you limit it enough. It looks like a really small map, when it’s actually not with the lower passage. The height makes up for the length which is nice to see. I already knew what most comp players would say right away, but I believe it can work. Another problem was the point not being centered. I always believe it can work in a map, but getting it right I saw a lot of minor tweaks here and there to get it right. You need a lot of balance and make the non point side useful. That was the biggest challenge I saw coming with the map. Quarry brought a different approach from other maps I’ve looked at.
Getting in touch with Idolon
I pm Idolon on the Tf2maps.net forums on December 21st at 8:49PM est. Sent him an offer asking if he would be interested talking on steam. Idolon last updated Quarry on September 29th, so I felt pretty good about it even for not knowing the guy. I noticed Quarry won the 72 hour contest which didn’t surprise me one bit. A few hours later at 12am he sends me a message to add him on steam and was excited. The same day we talked on steam and I asked him if he was open for changes with constructive feedback. He was on board and loved the idea. We both knew the map was pretty much done, it just needed proper playtesting and the changes would be pretty small ones and there might be a lot of playtests to get it right with the map being so unique.
Christmas was coming up, so we planned a playtest for December 31st at 9:30pm est. New Year’s Eve playtesting a map! Shows how much Idolon and the playtesting initiative wants to try out the map. Whenever we first playtest a map, I get really excited for the map maker. The experience you get from the first one you learn a lot not just from feedback, but hearing call outs, organized pushes, etc. It’s really nice to see and listen. You really understand how Highlander is played and appreciate how much time the players put in on a daily basis. For the most part, the players really know what they want to see and point out problems, especially in the higher divisions.
First Playtest
dec 31st koth_quarry_b6 shm vs pvp 9:30pm est
ShM is mid to low Gold and pvp is mid Silver. They played 2 full rounds(first to 3 per) which is really nice to see. Idolon living in NA worked out perfect. I always get the map maker to pick a day and time before I go asking teams for that slot.
Here’s some of the things I’ll point out that we found before playtesting and during the playtest.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#3
This spot nowhere to get up there at this level
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#4
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#5
A bit odd; but easy fix
Reminds me of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YSozbfIQbY
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#6
This is really open
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#7
Need to close it up just a touch
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#8
Blue side is taller; You can’t jump on either one just a minor thing
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#9
Just need to close it up a bit
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#10
Odd placement; easy fix
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#11
Small doorways are okay, but when you have another after
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#12
Usually a bad thing to have 2 narrow doorways back to back
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#13
Too much health in a close area
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#14
Especially with a small health in the back
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#15
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#16
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#17
That’s a lot of ammo in a small area
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#18
Just around the corner from the previous one
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#19
Another example of doorways
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#20
Just need to place them better
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#21
Small doorway having a bigger exit or vice versa
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#22
I like the fence there for some protection of the doorway, but with the map having so much height being bombed on by soldier/demo/scout
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#23
Anyone can single jump from roof to roof
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#24
Even if you build uber/kritz here still a very open spot with not much cover unless you go inside if it’s not taken
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#25
This is a neat spot connecting the two houses. Level 3 sentry from here is OP. It needs to be closer to the point so it’s easier to attack from
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#26
Level 3 sentry just shuts down this map. It would be pretty hard to take down from any angle
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#27
The point just needs a little more protection
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#28
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#29
Another example of it being open; This side is fine just need to balance the other side
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#30
Here’s an area where you can limit the death pit
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#31
Just some railings to prevent most of the falls
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#32
This is a nice spot to attack the point from; decent sniper sightline
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#33
When on point this is fine if the other side is closed off a bit or else it would be too open on the point area
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#34
Interesting spot for a flank class. It doesn’t give them an easy way up, which is really nice to see.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#35
I love the height!
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#36
Some players had delay getting back up when a lot of action takes place; easy fix
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#37
Shelf on just one side; a spy would take advantage of this hardcore.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#38
The left side of the fench forced engie build and sniper to camp
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#39
Just limit this spot a bit
dec 31st koth_quarry_b6 shm vs pvp 9:30pm est
http://logs.tf/154073
http://logs.tf/154078
Overall people enjoyed it. Everyone kept an open mind with it being so unique. Usually with a new map some teams might use quickfix til they get comfortable with the map. This map is also great for quickfix with all the height! The medics really hated it. It’s really bomb city for a demo and soldier coming in really fast and even a scout getting on some of these flanks. When you play at the higher levels in UGC, there’s soldiers that will double jump and in a map like this they just come flying in out of nowhere even with a pyro protecting the medic. Just takes a quick second of distraction for an easy bomb. After the first playtest it seemed great for soldier, demo, scout, spy, heavy and pyro was okay. Sniper, engineer, and medic will get better as the map improves over time. People usually get the impression “omg pyro would be OP in this map and why the death pit!” etc. When actually there’s just as many or more death pits in cp_steel. Looks can be deceiving
Idolon and I knew it would be a challenge to get things right and jungle things around a bit with it being so unique. I don’t think people realize a map that’s not your basic koth, how perfect it has to be to make up for what other koth maps have. I kept telling Idolon it can work, it just needs time and a lot of playtesting to get it right. Quarry is one of those maps where you can’t do too many changes at once. One small thing can literally change the flow of the map. I’m so confident with the map makers I’m working with and my playtesting team. Things don’t happen overnight and everyone understands that.
Second Playtest on RC1
jan 5th koth_quarry_rc1 shm vs cuties 9:30pm est
Cuties and ShM are mid Gold teams in UGC. This playtest was bad luck with the attack of NFO servers crashing that night. Both teams tried to play through it, but after 30 minutes of random crashes we decided to stop. We still got a lot of info what needs to be fixed. I just wish it was a full playtest, but things can happen. Idolon got enough input for the next version which is great.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#40
Looks better now
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#41
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#42
Little stub removed
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#43
Looks and plays better now
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#44
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#45
One simple change can make a huge difference
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#46
Pretty good
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#47
Point has some protection from the other side
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#48
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#49
The floor spacing needs to close up a bit. I like the look of it having small gaps, just needs closing up a bit so a soldier can’t spam on point without anyone seeing where he’s coming from. When you put a wall there it forces you to focus across the mini bridge or on point and not the open space(non point side)
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#50
Same size now; it wasn’t a big deal just looked odd
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#51
Too much ammo in this area
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#52
Helps the wide open point a bit
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#53
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#54
For some reason b6 didn’t have this issue; easy fix
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#55
Big add on here! We wanted to counter the bombing just to see how it would playtest. That was a big problem on this side of the map.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#56
It looks better than b6
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#57
As you get closer
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#58
A little protection with the stairs in the way
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#59
When you get in the building
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#60
There’s not much cover
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#61
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#62
This stairway made future tweaks possible
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#63
Small ammo pack now
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#64
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#65
Added coming right out of spawn
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#66
Looking good; 2 small health are gone on right side
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#67
Another angle of it; takes away sniper/engie sightline from this spot
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#68
Small ammo near point instead of medium
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#69
Small ammo added
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#70
There were some crazy fights up here with a heavy and medic being able to get up here. It was a great test to see how it would work out.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#71
Nice pic of the levels
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#72
Platform taken out
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#73
Roof top exit closed off
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#74
Now only 2 exits coming out of spawn
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#75
Slidding door added on the left roll out below the roof top exit(closed)
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#76
Another pic of it
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#77
New change
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#78
Hill is lower and large health replaced
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#79
Both houses are connected; prevents the easy coming over the top
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#80
Map got higher!
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#81
Only a couple classes can get up on the top roof now; no build zone
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#82
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#83
So much height
Overall besides the NFO server problem we got a lot of info for barely getting some playtesting time in. ShM already knew the map, but Cuties were a little hesitant which is very common for any team playing it for the first time. It’s not the usual koth style map, but Cuties suggested some good things as well as ShM. The biggest change that was needed was combining the 2 houses on the point side and open up the inside a bit. The rooftop exit people wanted to see how it would play being closed off. By closing the roof top exit and from earlier pics we needed another way to get up to the non point side. We did some small tweaks, but the house is a big one and doing too many things can be bad.
Third Playtest on RC3
jan 16th koth_quarry_rc3 knd vs syfy 9:30pm est
knd and syfy are high Gold teams. Syfy actually won Silver last season and playing well in Gold this season.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#84
Railings added
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#85
Doorway is a bit wider now; what a difference after coming through a small doorway
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#86
Small cracks are good; the ones before were too open
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#87
Ammo packs are gone now, before it was just too much for a spy to refill
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#88
Small doorway
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#89
Going into big doorway
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#90
Wow nice
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#92
Coming along
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#93
WOW!
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#94
Access to high ground now!
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#95
Awwwww my eyes! Easy fix
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#96
Inside panel; easy fix
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#91
Enough cover in this room from bombs and snipers
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#97
Looks sharp
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#98
Now you have some protection instead of it being so open from before
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#99
Remember those 2 small ammo and big ammo(here) in this area? This should make it better
jan 16th koth_quarry_rc3 knd vs syfy 9:30pm est
http://logs.tf/163940
Overall everyone decided the stairway had to go and leaving the rooftop still up. If it wasn’t for adding that stairway, the rooftop wouldn’t be there most likely. Combining the 2 houses together on the point side made a huge difference and opening up the inside. Nice cover from all the height. Some minor tweaking on ammo and health placement, which is pretty common til the map is figured out with balancing.
4th Playtest RC3A
jan 30th koth_quarry_rc3a ShM vs knd 9:30pm est
ShM and knd again both Gold teams already played it earlier versions before.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#100
Nice little add to prevent drop offs
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#101
Stairway is gone!
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#102
Looks pretty good; Removing the stairway was HUGE it literally offset the map in a good way. One small tweak like that can change a map so much
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#103
Prevents falling off a bit
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#104
I can’t even walk off unless I duck in the same spot
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#105
Yes! Doesn’t hurt my eyes anymore
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#106
RC3, but you can see how much better it is with a wider door there
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#107
Remember this spot for RC4
jan 30th koth_quarry_rc3a ShM vs knd 9:30pm est
http://logs.tf/175157
Overall everyone agreed the map is getting better with each playtest. The biggest changes that had to be made were opening the roof exit, because 2 exits out of spawn just isn’t enough. Even with the roof exit being basically on top of the shutter exit, it still makes a bit of a difference. Also everyone wanted the shutter door to be taken down on non point side and make that a open doorway A few other tweaks, nothing major.
5th Playtest RC4
feb 14th koth_quarry_rc4 knd vs bfl 8:30pm est
knd again being a high Gold team and bfl the first Platinum team to playtest this map. bfl is a low Platinum team.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#108
Last pic from RC3A; blocked off that small area
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#109
Prevents sentry build hitting the point
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#110
A Sniper can hang on the edge; still in a tough spot since he needs to stand still
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#111
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#112
Shutter is gone
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#113
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#114
Platform is back!
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#115
Roof exit is open! No more fence since it was visible being such a small map and not far from repsawn
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#116
Small health was here before
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#117
Medium ammo was here before
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#118
We wanted to try a small health ammo here; Needs full health at an easier place than below in the cage where it’s a risk to get in and out from.
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#119
Decided to combine the two houses so there’s less bombing and coming over the top for the next version
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#120
Even with cover it’s still a small room; should help the map a lot
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#121
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#122
We talked about taking this wall down since there’s cover from the top now
http://imgur.com/a/Ss2Dv#123
Connecting this side with a platform
feb 14th koth_quarry_rc4 knd vs bfl 8:30pm est
http://logs.tf/186953
Overall the point side is now pretty balanced after all these playtests. Now the problem is the other side. Removing the shutter doors and making that as a doorway seemed to help a lot. The rooftop exit was great to have back as well. Everyone wanted to see more cover at the middle house by combining the two and a small walkway that goes across the other side. Blunderful, the Platinum team said as a team it’s just a bit off and behind the maps we play in the league atm. That’s a good sign when they don’t just shrug off a map completely and thinking it can’t work. The map isn’t balanced just yet. It will very soon here, it’s only a matter of time.
Final Thoughts
After 5 playtests the map is really coming along. There’s a lot of small tweaks and playtests to see if it works. Balancing this map is a real challenge and it’s been a fun process working with Idolon. I can easily see this as a pub and comp map in Highlander. This map just feels like something Valve would be interested in. I’ve said that when I first saw cp_standin. They love unique maps and ideas, which a lot of mappers should try to do imo. Think outside the box if you can. Don’t always think “this is what Valve should do.” I really like seeing different and creative maps. I give my hat off to Idolon for having the balls to try something like this. It’s a big risk of trying something new that you can’t compare it to.
Thanks Idolon for taking all this time coming to all these playtests and listening to feedback! Hopefully it’s been a great learning experience for yourself. I know it sure has for me! This map has a lot of potential to be really great. Whenever you update it next, just let me know. The playtesting initiative will be ready!
