Microcontest #20: Static Spawns

pont

pont

huh? wuh?
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Mar 15, 2018
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bhhgHGRHGBNGBNgfnxkgfbjhkbfg https://tf2maps.net/downloads/cp_pont_mc20.12601/ 20220123151023_1.jpg
 
14bit

14bit

L14: Bit Member
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Oct 5, 2014
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Welcome back for the final time this season! This time we got 22 maps, including our first ever MvM map made for a microcontest. Without further ado, here's the last of the feedback:

@Le Codex @Sarexicus
Very fun, very unique, though very hard for Red. I think a longer respawn time for Blu would help since this would gather the zombies into larger hoards which might be interesting thematically. Giving the last few Red players some kind of boost when there's very few players left might be interesting as well, so that they still have a chance. I completely forgot the spawns were the premade ones while playing; you did a great job using them!

@SED4906
Way, way too small; it's pretty much just a cart path in a hallway. I think this might be the smallest 4-point payload I've seen; the whole track is shorter than just the first point on my entry! There's an idea or two in here, but there just needs to be a lot more map. Payload needs room to breath and areas disconnected from the cart to allow teams to make interesting pushes and holds; here the gameplay is being choked out. Jamming everything next to the spawns doesn't seem like a good use of them to me.

@B!scuit
I want to like this, but the layout is too small and confusing most of the time. The path to the intel room is far too close to spawn and looks like a death pit, so it took a long time for me to find even my own. I appreciate the "hard to get in but fast to get out" approach to CTF (which is what I tried to pioneer years ago in Underpass), but I think you've pushed it too far here since it's about getting past a spawn room rather than through defended territory. Trying to make use of the jump pad is a nightmare; they're hard to get past into the room if you use them as an entrance (which is what it looks like they are at first), and hard to get out of since you keep getting shot while escaping. If they were clearly one-way by having the exits be above player height they'd work better in my opinion. Overall it's a neat idea, I just don't think it works. Mid just kind of sucks, and I think it's because it's too small. For future versions I'd move the spawns apart and build a proper mid. I like the intel room! In the end, you made decent use of the spawns to do something unique, so well done!

@Zorb
I like this track layout, but it's a bit too open. I'd push the whole map out sideways away from the spawns a bit more, and build some kind of structure between spawn and mid on each side to allow teams to approach without as many sightlines. It seems that most of the fighting was just that one central corridor, so I'd love to see more incentive to push up to the other bits of the map. I don't like the rollforwards zones right before the point; it makes it very, very hard to make a last minute defense. Blu cart seems to break when Red crosses the intersection before it, but I'm sure you figured that out by now. The use of the spawns is alright; I think it's neat how the points are between the spawns, but it makes it really hard to defend with how the rest of the map is set up at the moment.

@14bit
Oh no it's good, again. Again. I keep making fun things and don't have time to keep working on them; this is becoming a really big problem. This might be one of the best A1s I've made in a while! Red needs more room to set up at A it seems, particularly near the bridge. Blu also might need another route, though I am unsure. Final isn't as hard of a choke as I was hoping; Blu rolls it a lot. The angles around B are nice, but people seem to be complaining about them and they lead to some strange sightline issues so I'll have to rework things. I think I'll probably extend the track to give B more space. I might attach this to Stage 1 of Fracture (my multistage PL map with a bad second stage and an unbuilt third stage) as a second stage if I can get it to play well. I think I used the spawn well!

@★ Conga ★
You've somehow managed to encourage spawncamping in medieval, which is really impressive in a bad way. I think thi s is because the point is difficult to reach/defend, so the fights happen around spawn instead of at the objective. When your options are "jump in a hole", "jump in a hole that will shoot you back up unless you are really precise", and "fight on normal ground" most players will choose the "normal ground" option. Lifting spawns up to give players an advantage when leaving spawn might be enough to salvage it? Regardless, you made good use of the static spawns with an interesting layout that splits teams up well.

@norfolk
Some neat ideas, but it's too compact in a lot of places and the walk to C is very long for Blu. I liked defending A, but it seemed like the attackers were not having fun since we locked it down so hard one round. B is strange but kind of fun? I do like the shortcut between A and B between the spawns; it looks nice and has enough space. Overall, I think this spawn setup just didn't work well for a Gravelpit style map, at least without shuffling things around more. Moving C below Red's spawn could be an interesting way to fix the distance problem without moving the spawn? Probably a bad idea, but it's an idea!

@Fault in Maps
Pretty neat with some cool ideas, though the routing for Red is awful. I get that the cart goes through the center to switch sides, but it's really confusing to navigate and hard to reach the cart in most places. A is interesting, though it may be too hard for Blu. B is the most interesting part conceptually, but it's over too fast to actually play since Red can't fall back after A is lost and it takes forever for newly spawned players to reach via the given routes. There's also just so much space under and around the point that even if the slowly opening door didn't guarantee a roll through the point it would probably be Blu-sided. Final is underwhelming; it's just a flat track into a hole on the far end of a room. Overall the map feels like it's fighting the spawns rather than embracing them (at least on Red's side), which is a shame.

@DoctorDoomtrain64
Seemingly solid base to a payload map, even if there's a bit of a lack of cover in spots. It feels over scaled, but I think it's just the areas that feel that way and not the map itself? Like, if you left the track alone and rebuilt the same amount of space around it but with more cover and variety it would feel fine. There's just a lot of empty space you need to cross to get anywhere. Final is extremely uninspired, and not fun to attack or defend. During the test people were arguing about how the doors work and nobody could figure it out; my theory is that they are only usable by Red until A is capped, then only usable by Blu after that. I don't think it's a terribly great mechanic, and it's probably just better to have doors that permanently close after A is capped so you can better direct both the attackers and defenders to the right places; as it stands with doors on both sides at some point each team has an easy way to get behind the enemy which seems off to me. You used the space between the spawns well, it's a fun little choke!

@MegapiemanPHD
That choke after the first point is killer; it's not fun to push. Reminds me of third on Brimstone/Fifthcurve, but much, much harder. The long ramp might be neat as a rollback? At the moment, there's nowhere to defend or slow the cart after Blu breaks out of the initial push, which seems strange considering how long the distance is to the first checkpoint. Final is totally undefendable; I don't know the cause but every time Blu makes it past the killer choke final was a complete roll. I think you probably tried to make it relatively easy considering that Blu spawns so far away without a forward spawn, but I don't think it works since the momentum from beating the choke is a hell of a drug. Solid base overall. Not a hugely creative use of the spawns; I think Red's spawn area/final doesn't use them well but Blu's spawn area is nice.

@Squaggies
I'm really sorry this didn't get tested with a full server, but I don't think playercount was the big issue here; I think parts of it are overscaled. There's huge areas around the cart starting area that go unused, and I think final is vertically overscaled. I like A, the room A is in with the pipe, and the shortcut to A. The water is fun! It is very hard for Red to get anywhere useful. Once A falls, it's impossible to reach B in time to mount a defense, so it shifts to the next choke back. Then, as soon as that falls the round is over since Blu rolls into final with a massive height advantage.

@Stack Man
I like this a lot, it's like Junction if it was good. Might be my favorite of the entries this time? Very clean, very intentionally designed all over. The shortcut between the points is very neat and works well, though I'm not sold on Blu getting the shortcuts after capping the points, but they don't harm the map from what I can tell. This seems like it's supposed to be Gravelpit style with 3 points, but it really works well with just 2 and I think a third might be hard to fit in without moving Red's spawn after both points are capped. Could be an interesting way to move forward with the map after this! You used the spawns brilliantly, well done! This is legitimately one of the best A1s I've seen in a very long time for anything, and it being for a microcontest blows my mind.

@Rhamkin
I like this, though A needs a bit of work; it's too hard for Blu at the moment. Doing a blind 180 out of spawn isn't hugely fun, and it makes even reaching the point difficult. B seems pretty fine, though Red spawns very close to the point. I think you may need to either move the spawns or push things further from them on both points: moving the Blu spawn exits father out to help Blu set up pushes and moving the Red spawn exits to keep them farther from the point on spawning. The play space is quite dark in a lot of places as well. Overall pretty good use of the spawns, and nice clean geometry even if it's got problems.

@Tiftid
This is a really neat idea, and I like it a lot more than stock SD I think. I still wasn't entirely sure how it worked during the test, but I was unfortunately distracted at the time. Testing it now while writing this I can confirm that yes, it works exactly as expected. Neat! I love the use of the PD timer and the HUD; I have no idea how you did this but I want to know! Layout-wise, I think the map might be a bit small. Fitting the capture point between the spawns is fun, but there's not much space for interesting gameplay to happen since everything is wrapped so tightly. I don't like mid because of that, and yes, I do realize that basically the whole map is mid. I do really like how you used one of the exits as a completely separate one; very clever.

@Hyperion
I like the broad strokes of this map, but the details are iffy. There's an over-reliance on the cart being in narrow tunnels that makes fighting around the start and finale awkward and unfun. The carts also often get stuck right outside of the enemy spawn, which is very not fun to fight and/or push. I solved this in my PLC map Orbit many years ago by having the carts on rollforward sections while passing close to the enemy spawns, maybe that would work here? The finale mechanic is cool as well, though I never got to see both carts at the end fighting for it.Pretty good use of the spawns in general though, it's fun to see the carts wrap all the way around both of them as they make their way to final.

@Kiglirs
ToW! Very exciting to see one of these again, I like them. I feel that the tracks go too close to spawn, and that the finales should be a bit farther out so that teams who are making a push don't have to resort to spawn camping to win. I also feel that it's overall very enclosed; some more large rooms for the cart to travel through would be nice since at the moment the entire center section of the track (where the cart spends most of its time) is surrounded by hallways. It's working against the static spawns rather than with them it feels; every exit is unmarked and leads you through a bunch of crazy hallways to who-knows-where. You can figure them out eventually, but they would still trip me up sometimes. I'd simplify the exits.

@Uncuepa
Very interesting but a lot doesn't work; you already know this since I've noticed you've already started working on updates on the forum and they look good. Not sure how much of my feedback here will still be relevant because of that, but I will still be giving it the same amount as everyone else! There's quite a choke between B and C; everyone has to go though one(ish) room and Red has high ground. Overall, very cramped. Pushing as Blu feels like fighting a brick wall; the defense doesn't move and you can't find purchase anywhere. A fell pretty fast most rounds I seem to remember, and I don't really remember much of fighting at B. All I really remember is the fights between the points rather than at the points, which certainly is a design that can work but I prefer the fights to happen on the points myself. I may be spewing nonsense at this point. The spawns are okay, but 3cp A/D might not have been the best choice when you can't add forward spawns. It seems you may have addressed this in the new version as the spawns have been moved in the screenshots.

@pont
Incredibly impressive, as usual with you. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it works well. Having both A and B open at the start means the defense has to split between three points, and even if Blu can't go for E, they still need to evenly split between two instead of unevenly split between two like in Steel. It's too much to bear for the defense. B and C are my favorite parts of the map; the geometry is nice and things aren't too spread out. A is forgettable and impossible to defend. I don't like D and E. They're pretty much in the same spot so it's hard to push either. Since Red only has one way to E after D is capped, they are automatically focused on it instead of split up like on Steel, making it hard to cap. I think the spawns are part of the issue here, and if you do continue I'd rip out Red's spawn and rework that whole end of the map. You did the best you could with the static spawns, but it just isn't compact enough for Steeltype I don't think.

@FloofCollie
I don't understand what this mode is supposed to be, but the map is neat! I am going to run on the assumption that this is supposed to be Steeltype as that is what the thread states, but in-game it was broken. The slime is very silly and fun, but is used well as an actual mechanic rather than just a gimmick which is really cool. I cannot overstate how much I like what you did with the space between the spawns, it reminds me of Hydro in a good way; very excellent little hallway(s). A is very fun, B didn't see much action (or, more likely, I missed all the fighting on B), and C feels very close to Red spawn but still would get capped. Overall a funky little map that was quite enjoyable, well done! The use of the spawns and the gap between them was good as well.


@Jameson
Far too big and not enough signage I think are the two big problems; other than that there's a few good ideas in here. Shrink the map by 25%-50% and it'll be more reasonable. Generally you want to string players through the waves of bots in order, from A -> B then split them between going for the vault and the C bots. Here, you don't do that. It's very hard for players to find any of the bots, and you have to zig-zag across the map to do them in order. I do really like the design of the core room; have players need to drop down into it works well as a substitute to the lasers, deathpits, and train lines of other attempts at RD. The spawns aren't used badly either, so good work working with them.

@Asd417
This one's got neat ideas, but falls flat once the starting gates open. I like the height variation; it's a great way to use the space between the spawns and I'm surprised more people didn't make use of verticality. It all looks great too. In terms of gameplay, it's very Blu-sided, surprisingly so considering the final tower. I think this is the best use I've seen of the Badlands spire outside of Badlands, so well done with that too. I think a lot of the issues come with Red's routing to defend; there's not good options when leaving spawn most of the time, and the transition from B to C is awkward for the defense to handle. I'd also love to see more going on in the B area, at the moment there's not much for the defense to work with considering how fast they need to set up after the gates open when A is capped. Overall pretty great use of the spawns!

@Ismaciodismorphus
This is the hardest MvM mission/map I've ever played. Two hours of intense testing to reach wave 8, after which it broke. Keep in mind I've not played much MvM, and not in a few years. The layout is neat, though it feels like it's missing something/might be a bit large. Hard to tell, since MvM scaling is different from normal PvP scaling due to the number of bots. Something is messed up and we can't see the holograms most of the time, and the bomb started not spawning on wave 8 after the first attempt. If you watch the demo, things completely break down after reaching it with us trying to fix the game with cheats, so that might be fun to watch! In terms of the wave design, each wave gets progressively harder and harder until wave 6, which gets easier, and wave 7 which is even easier than 6. Your reliance on tiny giants is funny if it's a "microcontest" joke, but it's not fun at all to play; they're too small to focus fire on, and by the time you reach the boss of 8 he's so small that we don't think it's actually possible to defeat him; so many shots miss that you can't out DPS his healing! You used the spawns very well, and made a really cool layout for MvM. Very fun, if extremely frustrating!

As usual, here's the mode breakdown:
Code: 
zd     1
pl     7
ctf    1
plr    2
koth   1
A/D    6
sd     1
rd     1
tow    1
mvm    1

Thank you all so much for the support this season, it's been absolutely incredible. I'm still blown away that a silly little side project of mine has spurred the creation hundreds of experimental maps over the course of these past 20 microcontests. At some point I'll total up the number of maps, count all the punches on the cards, and figure out the most and least popular modes and prompts this season, but for now I must take my leave. Will there be a season 3? That's a question for another time, but probably someday in some form.

Normally this is the part where I'd say "Thanks for playing and see you in 2022" but this last one was just a little bit late, so instead I'll bug you all about turning in your final punchcards in the Punchcard Showcase Thread:
https://tf2maps.net/threads/microcontest-punchcard-showcase-thread-season-2.45846/

Thanks everyone, it's been a fun season.
 
pont

pont

huh? wuh?
aa
Mar 15, 2018
345
522
thanks! pretty much came to the same conclusions for what'd have to be done if i continue that steeltype. i'd probably start over on a fresh vmf for a2. A and B being open at the start are because i overslept a bit and was rushing; didn't remember how steeltype actually worked lol. could go somewhere, though? E isn't actually accessible for BLU until an A or B capture.
 
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