Future of the TF2Jams

[Davekillerish]

I hope this isnt wasted space...
But the showcase post is a debate ground for this topic, and I think we should at least move it to a forum post more relevant for such discussion.

Personally I think we should do both, a TF2 Jam in the summer, and a TF2maps.net 72hr mapping contest in the winter, when less people are active in the community.

I dont think either one deserves to be put out.

 

[ades]

I do miss the contest portion of the 72 hour events but Its up to the people judging because its a long and hard process to go through every single map that was submitted

 

[Fantaboi]

It is no longer viable to be a contest. 3 Days of production and >3 months of judging is a waste of time and effort when that judging time can go towards something that needs a much stronger push from a contest that produces much better content.

I would like the 72HR Contest to be a purely aesthetic contest in which a single image is judged as that process will be a lot faster, but when there's 100+ entries coming in with no method to ease the speed of judging without being unfair, a contest is just no longer fitting.

 

[TMB]

I dont wanna sound rude but i think the problems was the posters, let me expalin, was like 500 entries but how many of them was poster of SFM? I dont say that arent cool but we are in a page of tf2 maps so... well you know, i think the jam would be about map/models/textures or even designs of them but not about posters... i repeat, i dont wanna be rude...

 

[Davekillerish]

I dont wanna sound rude but i think the problems was the posters, let me expalin, was like 500 entries but how many of them was poster of SFM? I dont say that arent cool but we are in a page of tf2 maps so... well you know, i think the jam would be about map/models/textures or even designs of them but not about posters... i repeat, i dont wanna be rude...

The idea of the jam is to bring all the community together, and I still think the 72hr contest should be a thing.

Not only is it tradition, and a good motivator to learn something new other then "everyone else is doing it", I love being compeditive, and im sure alot of others do too.

The jam is too relaxed and with litterally next to no standards for what qualifies, you get over 500 entries.

 

[TMB]

The idea of the jam is to bring all the community together, and I still think the 72hr contest should be a thing.

Not only is it tradition, and a good motivator to learn something new other then "everyone else is doing it", I love being compeditive, and im sure alot of others do too.

The jam is too relaxed and with litterally next to no standards for what qualifies, you get over 500 entries.

I dont feel good about that, cause many people worked hard mapping/modeling or other stuff that takes time and then appear one who made a poster in 15 minutes... thats not fair in my opinion and im very angry for that...

 

[Davekillerish]

I dont feel good about that, cause many people worked hard mapping/modeling or other stuff that takes time and then appear one who made a poster in 15 minutes... thats not fair in my opinion and im very angry for that...

Maps and SFM's got different sections of the showcase, its not all judged like 1 giant melting put of which art project was the best in the class.

 

[TMB]

Maps and SFM's got different sections of the showcase, its not all judged like 1 giant melting put of which art project was the best in the class.

But if the SFM was deleted would be more space for others guys... maybe all cause im sure that more of the 50% of the entrys was sfm posters...

 

[Another Bad Pun]

Sorry about this post in advance, I wrote it on an iPhone.
This post is mostly just a recap of what happened in the past and what happened just now. I'm going to try and be as cut and dry as I can.

--

Most people didn't care about the actual "contest" aspect of old 72h. If they did, they cared about making a map in 72h and getting a mappers medallion for it.

Jams however, are a totally different deal. Here's my opinion on this one.

Making a good map in 72h requires some sort of skill, but more importantly, it requires endurance and dedication. It could literally take 72 hours to make a winning map.

Making a good SFM poster takes skill also. But it also takes only 90 minutes.

Everyone who participated in this Jam will get a medal in game. That's the only reason there are 500 entries. I hope we're all smart enough to recognize that.

The medal was given out to any participant, disregarding skill, endurance, and dedication. It's the polar opposite of old 72h. It's no surprise people are up in arms.


The jam was quantity over quality. It succeeded in bringing in new people at least, and for some of you that's all you really care about.

If anything concerns me about it, it's that Doge is now literally real. You can submit garbage and get rewarded with a medal and it's hilarious. It's almost... Well, a joke.
Some members are afraid TF2M is no longer striving to create quality content. I feel like quality maps usually drop from individuals, but it's still a thought people have in their minds anyway.

I appreciate the fact that the staff are aiming to fix these issues, at least. One suggestion though.

I think it's unfortunate that feedback for this jam was done in a private poll format. I'm sure people are talking about the jam in chat, but I think forum public discussion is very important. It's literally why people are talking about it in the showcase thread. I know those threads can get out of hand occasionally, but it would be nice to have some more reassurance from the staff that they are listening. There are some people that are more used to being silenced. It happens every time.


abp

 

[Freyja]

Some members are afraid TF2M is no longer striving to create quality content. I feel like quality maps usually drop from individuals, but it's still a thought people have in their minds anyway.

And what are you doing to fix this problem? Or is arena_doge part of that plan.

You can't sit back and say a do as I say not as I do. It's very hypocritical. If you want to see more quality content, strive to do that yourself. Work on giving quality feedback, encourage others to develop their skills. Not sit back and complain that people are putting no effort in and shouldn't try.

 

[Another Bad Pun]

I've made more maps than doge.
I've joined game days and imps consistently for years and I leave good feedback.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If you think I'm just sitting here complaining as an observer you're wrong.
I do wish I had more experience here under my belt though. Believe me it's always felt awkward giving feedback or whatever and meanwhile I haven't accomplished as much here as I have in other communities, at least when it comes to map output

 

[Freyja]

I've made more maps than doge.

I know you have. But you're complaining that people aren't striving to create quality content anymore. And then you create doge as a joke. It's a fun map, but it seems to go against your own complaint.

 

[Fantaboi]

The jam is too relaxed and with litterally next to no standards for what qualifies, you get over 500 entries.

What's the issue with that though? There are standards that exist within other contests that encourage higher quality, and it serves as a method for new people to get into TF2maps

Edit: Expecting something produced in 72Hrs to be stinted because there are a lot of other entries alongside it is going to have a lot more issues than the contest stopping it

 

[Davekillerish]

@Moonrat Why did you disagree with the OP?

Is there a bad reason to have a discussion thread regarding the future of 72hr events seperate of the already existing 72hr showcase thread that people were using prior?

 

[killohurtz]

@Another Bad Pun When you say that people are afraid that TF2M's quality is declining...who are you quoting? Where are these others who share your concerns? As far as I can tell, TF2M has always produced its fair share of low quality content, so I'm not seeing any threat to our integrity or what have you.

 

[Moonrat]

@Moonrat Why did you disagree with the OP?

Is there a bad reason to have a discussion thread regarding the future of 72hr events seperate of the already existing 72hr showcase thread that people were using prior?

I think others have already justified the change of 72hr Contest to 72hr Jams, and I don't think we need anymore contest after last year's became so big.

 

[Davekillerish]

I think others have already justified the change of 72hr Contest to 72hr Jams, and I don't think we need anymore contest after last year's became so big.

Yes but if people still feel the need to discuss it, and it became aparent there was the need too, the thread it started in was a bad place for it...
So I simply started this forum post to properly discuss what people felt the need too, in a place clearly meant for it.

 

[DrLambda]

Let's throw down my thoughts, as much as i can order them at this time of the day.

Due to the sheer size of the 72h jams, it's unreasonable to have a contest. Even if you did a quick early pass over all the maps, killing like 80%, it would still take a really long time to vote on the remaining 20%, and the contest would be really unsatisfying for the 80% that got removed early.
I still think it's important to have contests, and i think they should be of the "finish a map with prequisite X and Y within a reasonable timeframe"-kind, because while Jams only take dedication for 3 days, which most people are able to do, longer contest take dedication over many weeks, which will automatically lower the amount of people entering significantly.

I don't really know how big or small the percentage of entries that were "gaming the system" was and if it is necessary to have mechanisms to remove them, but going to the other extreme isn't going to solve it.

I love that people are creating all kind of content for the jam, but while i don't care that many will choose an art form that takes way less time if they produce nice things, i can see why many guys who put 36+ hours in are angry that people who invested 90 minutes (for a serious entry, mind you, i'm not talking about "I took a screenshot") will get the same reward. Again, i personally do not care, and trying to ratify the amount of time put in already makes it a contest.

 

[fubarFX]

@Another Bad Pun When you say that people are afraid that TF2M's quality is declining...who are you quoting? Where are these others who share your concerns? As far as I can tell, TF2M has always produced its fair share of low quality content, so I'm not seeing any threat to our integrity or what have you.

I agree that the quality has always been here and there, but we do have an influx of new mapper, I think it's safe to say the average is going down. I can say for certain that the quality of maps in imps is not what it used to be.

and honestly it makes me afraid sometimes. We have mappers who want to push the game forward but it often feels like tf2m is of little to no support for that. In my experience, testing time has gotten more sparse and it makes it harder to get quality content out. tf2m is good at pointing you toward making a tolerable map but beyond that, it really has to come out of your own. While we need people to take care of new members, mapping is hard and I can't shake the feeling that a lot of our newcomers won't be able to make a meaningful contribution before the game dies off (if and when it finally does so I can move on with my life). I'm not going to deny anyone a hobby they chose and are probably passionate about but I think the gap between hobbyists and seriousbusinessmappers is going to be more and more apparent and it always makes me feel kinda uneasy to think about where tf2m is going or rather, where its efforts should be focused. tf2m is a home to a lot of us but I can't say that I feel like it's the place to be. (except it's the only place so too bad I guess)

Not that any of this is related to the 72h, I'm just riffing off someone else's feelings

 

[LeSwordfish]

Okay, so: first things first, it's not going to be a contest again. That's straight-up logistically untenable. Also I like the spirit of the Jam format - it's welcoming. It says "come along, enjoy participating, have fun". If you're complaining about the quality of entries, you're missing the point - getting quality results can be a personal goal, but it's not actually the point of what we're doing. Stop comparing this to the old 72hr - they're entirely different events.

I also invite people to speak up if they feel our quality standards are declining - that's a pretty serious accusation, and weaselling around it with "some people say" resolves nothing and weakens your cause.

But if the SFM was deleted would be more space for others guys... maybe all cause im sure that more of the 50% of the entrys was sfm posters...

About a quarter of the entries were SFM.