CP Evergreen b4

[Ravidge]

http://www.mediafire.com/?51veg6e67av1akx

Stv from another pug. One of the comments that stood out to me was that the window exit onto mid could probably be a gate or a door to make it easier to get through. One demo complained about not really being able to fight the other demo at mid, he wasn't able to place initial sticks on the other demo, but that might've just been them taking different routes or just not having played the map enough to really know what to expect at mid.

The window exit is something I've been thinking about quite a bit.
I want it to be there, as it's a useful route. But at the same time it's really powerful in the way it literally cuts traveltime between mid and 2nd to almost nothing.
I fear that if I make it a doorway/gate it will become too much of a good route. Right now the design I went with is intentionally tricky to use and confined just to balance its viability among the other paths.
I understand that using it more freely would be popular among players, but there are too many variables that would get messed up. I even debated removing the windows entirely for a while.

I'll put down the demo sticks situation to just lack of experience for now. Unless there is specific map geometry interfering with the attack I think predicting and learning is just something that takes time.

 

[ScorpioUprising]

The window exit is something I've been thinking about quite a bit.
I want it to be there, as it's a useful route. But at the same time it's really powerful in the way it literally cuts traveltime between mid and 2nd to almost nothing.
I fear that if I make it a doorway/gate it will become too much of a good route. Right now the design I went with is intentionally tricky to use and confined just to balance its viability among the other paths.
I understand that using it more freely would be popular among players, but there are too many variables that would get messed up. I even debated removing the windows entirely for a while.

I'll put down the demo sticks situation to just lack of experience for now. Unless there is specific map geometry interfering with the attack I think predicting and learning is just something that takes time.

If your talking about rollouts for the window, then the flank path is just as fast for any class other than medic. In fact, if someone screws up the window jump then the flank path might actually end up being faster for them most of the time. Having the window and the flank exit so close to each other leads to this problem, but you don't really want to make either exit take longer, or mid fights get out of whack.

The one thing I'd mention is that playing medic, its kind of frustrating how soldiers and demos can almost always take a faster route above, leaving you with no one to heal, as you are forced to take the lower ground to maintain proper speed. This is mainly to do with that handrail you've got near the train car at last. If that handrail wasn't there then meds would be able to make that jump no problem and soldiers wouldn't have to either leave the medic or slow themselves down. I don't know, I mean as a roamer I was finding the rollout to be pretty fun; you have a lot of nice geometry that requires lots of corner jumps and skips into healthpacks as well as doing a second jump off the train car. The seperation between roamer and med at that handrail is the only thing that spoils it.

Other than that though, I enjoy it most of the time. Certain areas seem like they have some unnecessary stuff, like the water pit, but otherwise it plays pretty well.

 

[Ravidge]

If your talking about rollouts for the window, then the flank path is just as fast for any class other than medic. In fact, if someone screws up the window jump then the flank path might actually end up being faster for them most of the time. Having the window and the flank exit so close to each other leads to this problem, but you don't really want to make either exit take longer, or mid fights get out of whack.

The one thing I'd mention is that playing medic, its kind of frustrating how soldiers and demos can almost always take a faster route above, leaving you with no one to heal, as you are forced to take the lower ground to maintain proper speed. This is mainly to do with that handrail you've got near the train car at last. If that handrail wasn't there then meds would be able to make that jump no problem and soldiers wouldn't have to either leave the medic or slow themselves down. I don't know, I mean as a roamer I was finding the rollout to be pretty fun; you have a lot of nice geometry that requires lots of corner jumps and skips into healthpacks as well as doing a second jump off the train car. The seperation between roamer and med at that handrail is the only thing that spoils it.

Other than that though, I enjoy it most of the time. Certain areas seem like they have some unnecessary stuff, like the water pit, but otherwise it plays pretty well.

Rollouts aren't my main concern in the window route design. It's the distance between 2nd and mid areas, in both directions.

The blue (window) path is a lot more direct. Not necessarily shorter, but it moves you from "combat area: mid" to "combat area: 2nd" in a very short time. The other two "normal" paths are a little less rush-y or whatever the proper term is.

I'll check that traincart jump out, sounds like a good idea.

 

[waxpax]

I'd also like to say how I'd really like to be able to jump from the train car to the batts on last. I think the problem is that the batts are slightly higher than the train car, though, since I can jump as medic from batts to train but not the other way around. You might be able to jump train to batts if you bhop but I haven't really tried since I'm not that consistent at bhops. Being able to rollout top left as medic would be nice and it would also be nice to be able to get to batts quickly in a lot of other situations.

 

[ScorpioUprising]

Rollouts aren't my main concern in the window route design. It's the distance between 2nd and mid areas, in both directions.

The blue (window) path is a lot more direct. Not necessarily shorter, but it moves you from "combat area: mid" to "combat area: 2nd" in a very short time. The other two "normal" paths are a little less rush-y or whatever the proper term is.

I'll check that traincart jump out, sounds like a good idea.

Oh I see what your talking about. Two things: Even if you did open up that window into a ledge, pushing out from the second point to middle, I'd still probably take the lower green route the majority of the time, as it provides the most opportunity to fall back unmolested and the least opportunity for surprise ambushes or sticky traps. As part of the combo (med, soldier, demo) that route is really actually quite appealing because it allows the soldier to keep the medic safe with minimum of effort.

Second, if you want to make the window an actual door exit, but still incentivize other routes to push out of, maybe move the small healthpack and ammo inside the building out to the patio area near the lower green route? I've used that healthpack before, and its fine, but the difference between those two placements is minimal and it could assist anyone falling back to the second point with a slight boost.

 

[waxpax]

Pugged your map again last night, here's the stv:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0d5dfsnl5jeibex

 

[Ravidge]

Pugged your map again last night, here's the stv:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0d5dfsnl5jeibex

Thanks, I'll try and push out a new version during next week.

 

[waxpax]

http://www.mediafire.com/?1fuyi5d2kjsxy75

stv from last night's pug.

 

[Ravidge]

Haha....

Thanks, I'll try and push out a new version during next week.

ALMOST ON TIME!
Despite being late as hell, the update isn't anything major.
I think gameplay should be good-ish now and will most likely start detailing on a larger scale.

updated to a7
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_a7.bsp.bz2

- Added some jumps/shortcut for medic (pyros aren't allowed to use them, seriously).
- Added more structure around the back of mid to make it less open.
- textured the first spawn building.
- added soundscape.
- probably more? It's been a long time so I can't remember what I did several weeks ago.

 

[Ravidge]

I'm giving myself 1 week to detail this map, maybe not "Final" standard but at least basic detailing over the whole map, starting today. I'm getting tired of having this map collecting dust, it might still have some issues but overall I feel it's decent enough.

I have been really out of TF2 and mapping for awhile now, so I figure setting a deadline would motivate me? We'll see how it works out.

Yesterday I made a cliff...

 

[Crash]

The big metal train gates look kind of odd to me going to that short wooden fence. The other side with the tall metal fence looks fine though.

 

[Ravidge]

The big metal train gates look kind of odd to me going to that short wooden fence. The other side with the tall metal fence looks fine though.

I agree, that wooden fence was the last thing I did before I took the screenshot, so that "wall" was kinda only half-done.

I made it all wood now, for the red side... plan is to use the metal ones for blu

The roof texture changes to brown whenever I use texture shaded mode (it's darkened with $color). it's still the black one fyi

 

[Crash]

Looks much better!

 

[tyler]

That's looking great

 

[ScorpioUprising]

Lots of brown wood. Might be the style your going for, but I could see that much brown getting tiresome after a while. Mix in some other wood textures, like make the windowed hut some other wood color (the reddish 2fort wood?)

 

[ScorpioUprising]

Also, the displacement wall you've got going on could use some yukon styling, i.e. other heights. check out gorge as well

 

[Ravidge]

I'm starting to feel the painnnn, I really don't enjoy the detailing process...

Sorry for the low graphic settings and lack of AA.

 

[grazr]

An FYI, many of the TF2 maps that feature a lot of wood utilise the light brown and white wood for the inside and the dark browns for the outside. See: Thundermountain, lumberyard, badlands. It's very difficult to light the dark browns with anything other than the powerful ambient light from the sky so you should explore this (plus it breaks up all that dark wood).

 

[ScorpioUprising]

One thing about the spawn building in that picture: seems like an excellent opportunity to put some other taller structures behind it. Maybe one really tall wood tower with smaller buildings attached. You wouldn't really block up your sightlines too much if it was a fairly thin tower, and then you could get some power lines and such to cross over last.

 

[Ravidge]

Beta 2:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b2.bsp.bz2

* Fixed bulletblocker on the handrails at mid cp.
* Fixed nonsolid 16x16 unit beam in the building between mid-2nd
* Removed bridge support at mid, made the arches smaller and placed a small healthkit underneath
* Retextured some buildings to metal.
* Rolled up a container on the train tracks at last, in-front of the left door (from defenders view). The idea is to make this exit more viable to push out from with the added cover the container provides.
* Made some changes to the unclipped upper levels in the building between 2nd-last.
* Added more details, mostly in the shape of props, a simple 3d skybox was added.
* Some lighting fixes.
* Added occluders
* Slight changes to fog and color correction.

Pictures
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578958940146925539/74B0506190C7D4D95BE1439D96FE620D2393B203/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578958940146923615/25E7225B22262B7455E8D0485CF0C6AC0ACA72DC/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/578958940146921772/BA24561D8C25757A9F1ED0248087C55B3A745F37/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/578958940146930529/0B457ED6DAAB1508E4EB5B0CFD49C0162C408FF1/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/578958940146919070/CC8158673996B3FCC5A87C68E39BACFD43CD4BC5/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578958940146927783/2974B652C7EE8546FFD19820BC8BD9C31E5A33BE/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578958940146932968/1C25802ACAAFF0084EC9BD55F1E1098C28E9EC3B/