CP Evergreen b4

[Ravidge]

Feedback from the rollback, I post is here because why not.

Beta 1?
Download: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b1.bsp.bz2

It's not really beta quality, but I figure I've had it for such a long time now that I better put it out there before it becomes even more obsolete. The out of bounds areas are especially bad, and there is no 3d sky. Detail in general is very sparse.. basically I'm bad at betas.

I only made the red side basically, then pasted it over to blue and replaced textures, sorry for being lazy.
I haven't actually checked if everything is packed, but I hope it is.

Screenshots:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10001.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10002.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10003.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10004.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10005.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10006.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10007.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10008.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10009.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b10010.jpg

So I'm kinda late with this but the ladder looks really bright on the dark tiles, like a full bright prop or something.

PUT PLACEHOLDER FOR DOWNLOAD LINK, FORGET TO INCLUDE IT!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3492731/spacesaver/20120602-0442-cp_evergreen_b1.dem

Okay, so one quick mention on the playtest: someone in the pugs decided that they wanted to run huntsman sniper the entire match. To be honest, thats not the sort of behaviour I would expect from a serious match, but the player mentioned that they thought Huntsman would be very viable on the map, and thats the excuse for why they were playing it. I do think you'll have to keep snipers in mind on the map, as comp snipers can do quite a bit with sightlines like at mid. Just something to keep in mind.

Okay, as for the feedback I gave you in chat yesterday.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310307715?tab=public
http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310304384/?tab=public

This is the ledge I think you should keep. The reasoning for this, is that anyone who wants to sit up there to ambush a team coming in, can easily be seen when they are overlooking the door, and can't line up a shot when they aren't visible. However, I would make a change to this section. In the second screenshot, I would make a stack of props / chicken wire + wood that lines up right next to the ladder. That way, anyone who wants to camp up there and wait for people to push out/in has to take that chance that they will be spotted immediately. If you look at the first picture, you'll notice that I can easily peek the door and see anyone on that ledge with minimal effort and can immediately splash them with rocket damage.

The primary reason you don't want the ledge to go all the way back is that anyone pushing out has to be super cautious about that area. They push out with uber, they go towards the second point and a single roamer sitting WAY far back there walks forward and pops uber. Not optimal, and generally not the sort of sneaky spot that is used in most competitive maps. The other worry is back caps, as a single player can sit up there, wait for the team to push out and then run for the capture. Back caps happen and are a part of comp TF2, but you want to minimize them as much as possible. If someone is able to stay up there without being seen at the extreme edge of the ledge, I feel like its fair that they get a back cap, but if they are WAY towards the back and the only way to see them reliably is to RJ up and check, that doesn't seem fair at all.

One more thing, I feel like scouts should have some way to get up there. Maybe some prop (leaning pallet, barrel, etc) that they can double jump off of to get in there. If a soldier gets up there and scout walks into the room, the ensuing fight is not very much fun for the scout (they can't close in and damage the soldier) and it gives the soldier all sorts of time to reload all his rockets. Combining this with the above change would lead to a fairly interesting spot, but not an overpowered or annoying one.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310300807/?tab=public
http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310312103/?tab=public
http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310294880/?tab=public
http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310317885/?tab=public

Okay, I think you should clip off this upper area. Reasoning being, that a single roamer or scout can sit up on that platform and essentially block the door while taking minimal damage themselves. The first two pictures show two spots you can stand on or near that watch the door. You can't see out the door, which is good, but as soon as someone peeks in, you get a free 100+ damage rocket. Thats a lot of damage, and its the sort of thing that will outright destroy a weaker class (the scout gets out with 25 hp, but then has to run all the way back to mid for a medium, or find med to heal up) or it will stuff a push by the combo (a soldier with a buff that takes a hundred damage essentially has to back out immediately unless they want to uber).

Additionally, I feel like that spot is really hard to fight the soldier camping up there. You have nothing to splash on from the door, and while its really close range and you can hit directs, its still hard to get them right though the cracks in the floorboards without also getting wrecked by splash if you miss. Further, a soldier can easily hold back on the far side of the platform (picture 3) and not be seen at all until the combo is too far in to back out.

the fourth picture shows how much space you have to check to make sure that someone isn't up there, and to show how narrow your shots are if you do have to fight someone off.

I know it seems like I'm harping on about this issue a bit too much, but its these little things that really affect how maps flow from point to point. Its also important to note that while these things don't show up in the playtest demo, thats largely because the playtest was a bit disorganized and oddball. If this was played in a league or scrim scenario, I could see those two spots getting quite a bit of use, as well as lots of players complaining about them.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310328850/?tab=public

Couple of quick points. Don't make this beam none collide. Things without collision make for perfect demo sticky traps, and while this isn't a high traffic area, it feels really lame to get blown up by stickys inside something you thought was solid (see badlands doorframes at last). Some people like the option, but I personally feel like the complete inability to see the stickys inside the frame is a big no no. Even the doorframes on badlands often have the stickies poking out a bit so you can somewhat tell if they are there.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310331255/?tab=public

Lighting here. Seems like the perfect spot to ambush, and you don't want to have players fighting the lights see someone in such a crucial spot.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310335360/?tab=public

Bridge looks nice, but you have to worry about people getting stuck against the beams. That area is very narrow and if someone backs up into the wood beam and gets stuck, they are most assuredly going to die to incoming rockets. Also, I would consider getting rid of the middle pillar thing. I mean, you should check sniper sightlines and such, but opening up that area might make combat flow a bit more back and forth, with scouts zipping around underneath. I'm not sure if that will help, but it would be really easy to test it. If it doesn't work, just copy and paste it back.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/scorpiouprising/screenshot/560943464310322745/?tab=public

Last, but not least, please get rid of the bullet block on the upper part of this handrail. One of the worst things about the handrail props in TF2 is that they don't visually predict where you can fire and where you can't. Certain parts of the handrail can be fired through, certain others can't, and you can't really tell by looking. Looking at this handrail, my immediate thought is I can shoot through the gap and the chicken wire will block shots. But, in fact the entire thing can't be fired through. Not a fan. If a soldier lines up a perfect rocket through the gap, only to suicide from splash damage, they are going to be frustrated.

Also, a quick mention. The comp playtesters I play with almost never mention visual details. Comp players don't really care how it looks, just how it plays. But, when we played this last night 2 or 3 people did comment on the amount of wood in the map. Just a quick FYI, I think the wood looks okay most of the places you put it, but I would consider mixing it up with some metal.

Alright, that's great feedback.
Also I'm surprised you found the nonsolid beam and misplaced bulletblocker, I knew of both of the issues, but was hoping that maybe it would go unnoticed..

As for sniperlines at mid, I'm a bit at a loss for what to do. I've looked at that problem for a long time but I can't really find a viable solution that wouldn't cause flow issues for other classes. And I'm generally against designing a hardcounter if it interferes too much with the other classes.

As for the wood, well, seems a lot of people have a problem with it (more than I expected at least). Basically I tried to avoid using too many materials in this map, as a problem I've had detailing previous maps is that I end up blending bricks, concrete, wood and metal on the same building, and it just looks like chaos. Perhaps I overdid my material limit this time.

 

[Ravidge]

So that no one gets confused about that, The latest version is BETA 2

Also, anyone has anything to say about the gameday? It was the first pub test with a full server I've done for this map.

 

[Sergis]

map was fun, if a tiny bit sprawling and same-looking throughout - wood wood and more wood and metal somewhere i guess. also the buildings between last and 2nd look too same from last, though that might not look that bad once you add some detailcrap. i like the barely - makeable jump at last. i'm not sure if 2nd being in the open from middle is a good thing - it makes pushing back hard and vulnerable especially to wranglers though wrangler is a problem in itself. the badlands spire for example has cover which even though isnt much is enough. though if you try to add some cover to point as it is now, you risk making it more cramped. you could risk trying two separate capzones for team-individual captimes. even if it doesnt work it'd be interesting to see though idk if you're willing to experiment like that.

 

[Ravidge]

Yeah, I've been thinking of adding a really ugly cover wall on the 2nd cp capture area for awhile now.
It would probably make it easier to retake the point, as well as defending against incoming enemies from mid. But I haven't actually done it due to it being a band aid solution...

Another thing that I need to remember to fix is the water material, the "fog" is too harsh and it's very easy to hide stickies in there.

 

[Ravidge]

I have placed a little more detail around the map, as well as making a little more texture variety.
However here is my question: Should I prioritize performance over aesthetics?

I have a few scenarios in my new detailing (b3) that pop in and out of visibility due to aggressive optimization. In most cases it shouldn't be noticeable in normal play (unless you're explicitly looking for it, and know where to look), but I feel its a little jarring to have it nonetheless. And I'm having a hard time compiling a new version with this still in the map, because I know about it, and it's not alpha anymore.

How do other people deal with popping detail structures? Do you edit the detail itself or the optimization surrounding it?
Or do you just leave it?

 

[Sergis]

as a mapper i will see it and hate it

as a player i will generally not see it because my mind is preoccupied with rockets advancing towards me

as the map author i try to either hide it or make it visible on both sides of the skybrush, keeping both optimization and detail

 

[Ravidge]

Keeping both optimization and detail is not possible in these cases. The solution is either 1) less/smaller detail. or 2) relax optimization in that area. or 3) ignore and feel bad.

 

[Sergis]

move detail to skybox?

 

[tyler]

I would change the detail depending on how big it is and how often a player will be looking there while playing the map normally. Or try to cover it up with more detail.

 

[Ravidge]

Actually, I just got an idea that could probably work.
Thanks! I think I just needed rant a little and lay out the problem in words somewhere so I could visualize the problem better.

I was actually in the middle of drawing a picture in paint to explain it better, was just about to finish it up when this solution hit me. Which isn't so much a solution as a compromise with a imagined paint-over attached (to make it look prettier).

 

[Ravidge]

BETA 3 released.

Download:


Changelog:
- 2 new small healthpacks per side of the map.
--- One by the water between 2nd and mid.
--- Indoors, on the bottom floor between 2nd and last. Also features a new medium ammo pack in the same spot.
- Capture time on 2nd cp lowered by 6%
- Closed one of the windows leading to mid completely. The open window has had its line of sight almost removed.
- Added cover fence on 2nd cp, both on the cp and below the platform.
- Minor additions to last, fence and concrete block
- Detail, in general.
--- More texture variety
--- Decreased indoor brightness by a fraction
- Optimization, overall improvements.
--- Filesize reduced by 5 mb
- Added menu photos
- Slight changes to the water vmt
- Other things I've forgotten.

Screenshots:

A useless overhead view:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_b30010.jpg

 

[YM]

There's something unsettling in the colours in those screenshots.

 

[tyler]

Really like the direction you took the detailing

 

[LeSwordfish]

Okay, wow, this suddenly looks really nice. I like the bright colours!

I'm not sure i like the construction in image three, or the little fences throughout, but whatever you've done has been an improvement.

 

[Deodorant]

This skyline is lovely, but then again you're probably very aware of this fact.

I think this needs vertical support pillars. The support beams it has look way too small to carry such a thick wooden platform. The steel wires are a great idea, but since they're sagging they clearly don't hold up anything.

This is some grade A color combinatin' right here. Love it!

 

[Ravidge]

Videooo http://youtu.be/pfAv_LSUxLc?hd=1
There's a couple of issues, but I can only handle so much SFM bullshit in one day. So I decided to upload it anyway, it's definitely watchable though!

 

[Arnold]

Really need to do something about the fact that almost everything is wood.

 

[Ravidge]

Really need to do something about the fact that almost everything is wood.

If it's a genuine concern I 'm going to need (very) specific suggestions, since I clearly have no idea what the fuss is about myself. I'm getting tired of hearing the "too much wood" comment, and nothing I've done seem to remedy it. So I need someone to tell me straight up what to do, my own attempts have apparently failed?

My plan for b4 detailing, texturing wise is to create some variation to the floor textures, since they are all the same 1 wood texture from alpha 4.

 

[Pocket]

I see metal of red
Wood planks of blue
And I think to myself:
Is this really necessary?

Both of them look like quickie Photoshop jobs, and the wood in particular looks very unnatural — less like it was painted and more like it was made from alien trees. (Starting with the red-painted wood instead of, from the looks of it, the gray wood from Barnblitz would have helped that.) I might be more supportive of this design choice if it were clear that you were trying to recreate a certain type of setting beyond "a bunch of random wooden and metal buildings in a forest."

 

[Eyce]

The blue buildings in shots 2 and 5 annoy me because of the ugliness of the blue wood against the light brown frames.

The one type of roof for each side just makes it appear really really monotonous still, and on top of that, the red colours to me are oversaturated.