CP Evergreen b4

Made by Ravidge

  1. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    [​IMG]

    Video: http://youtu.be/pfAv_LSUxLc?hd=1 (OLD! Video is of the beta 3 release)

    People will probably find several design concepts that are similar to cp_badlands. And you'd be right, a few ideas from that map have been reused for the evergreen layout, but the arenas and flow should be a completely new experience.

    I've taken a lot of care to make sure that walktimes between points, and from various spawnrooms aren't excessively long. Assuming you use the shortest route, the times are equal to that of any popular 5cp.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  2. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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    Cool, Scorpio mentioned you were working on a 5cp and I've been waiting to see the end result. I'll probably try to pug this Friday or Saturday.
     
  3. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    I wouldn't call it "end result" just yet! Expect it to be unpolished and basic, that said I greatly appreciate the eagerness to test it. I hope it's fun.

    For now, the part I'm most unsure about is the whole middle section.
     
  4. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    This is useless feedback because it's aesthetic and about something you said existed as a visual placeholder (on an early alpha, no less), but the mid being some mix of the elevator-beneath-the-point and a wooden bridge thing really really bugs me.

    I didn't have a problem with mid when I played it though.
     
  5. Bloodhound

    Bloodhound L6: Sharp Member

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    Looks great, i really like the height differences.
    And the midpoint is a bridge, so nothing can go wrong.
    But those circular arches don´t really fit tf2, i think. :/

    EDIT: And btw. contact me if you need an exploit check. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2011
  6. Kiddnils

    Kiddnils L3: Member

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    This map plays very well. It is amazing for scouts but the last point is often too easy for the attackers. Also Evergreen was the name of the school, which visited Valve :D
     
  7. possiblylethal

    possiblylethal L1: Registered

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    I was excited to see this on today's gameday and I had a similar experience but that the last point was too easy for the defenders. Perhaps a sign of a good map? Interested to see this one progress as I had a great time with badla...er, evergreen.

    I liked Cap B the minute i saw it in the screenshots and i liked it in game as well. The rails along Cap C were great for a variety of classes to make use of which was nice.
     
  8. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I love that one of the captures is supported by ropes, but the way you've attached the ropes to the floor looks super-flimsy, and the ropes themselves look pretty poor.

    Comment out the cables line in the TF FGD and have a browse through the existing rope materials, alternatively make them brushes with a rope texture on them and give them a little slack in the middle. (or a displacement tube would work just as well, perhaps better even)

    Then it'd look really cool.

    The final option is to model it.
     
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  9. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Ah, so this was the map we played yesterday.

    Wide staircases seems to be a Ravidge signature, i remember them being common in your CTF contest map too. I can't say i'm a fan as they feel cumbersome to fight at and unnecasserily consume space, but that's just me.

    A couple things i would say is that the map is kinda a bunch of pseudo corridors and whilst it's not entirely detrimental to combat because there is enough space to fight, it does make it difficult to navigate when you're surrounded by walls/large buildings with a limited FoV. In many CP maps doors open in to large arenas where you can immediately see where you're entering from, where you need to exit/progress too and where the objective is (along with the likely position of defenders). This wasn't totally true playing this map as CP's were hidden behind complex geometry like catwalks, minor walls or other solid obstacles like medium sized props or solid structures.

    Also, often the number of arrow signs present was just as confusing as if there were a lack of them. Place arrow overlays above or beside doorways and less of them on walls as they didn't help too much as is. Doing so will help players understand the orientation of the map, which way is forwards and backwards amongst all the corridors. I spent a lot of time looping around buildings or walking the wrong way.

    Last was a massive pain in the arse to assault as attackers basically had to complete a small gauntlet of obstacles whilst being shot at by snipers, rockets and grenades from a balcony next to the defenders spawn. The doors also didn't help. Getting to the final CP needs to be a lot more fluid and the CP a lot more obvious as the focus is on the significant threat from the defenders spawn ledge and not the CP behind the train. Most of the time players took up cover on one side of the train flatbed, shooting back up at the continually spawning defenders, whether they noticed the CP or not wasn't clear but at the end of the day it took a long time before anyone successfully jumped onto it and captured it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2011
  10. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    I don't think last is hard to push as of right now. The point has never stalemated and it usually gets capped quickly (or the defenders win the fight and retake second).
    That single round you played in was the longest I've ever seen last held, and that was only 4½ minutes.

    I had a hard time to put down arrows in this map, I even forgot to the first couple of versions.
    Arrows to me are useless, as it's not how I would navigate a map beyond the first 1-2 rounds, memorizing one part of a map at a time takes about 10-15 minutes in total (even less if the map is symmetrical). Sure they might be useful those first rounds, but usually a teammate will guide better than a arrow. On a completely new and unplayed map I accept the fact that being "lost" for awhile is part of the deal.

    I think to map is very cluttered visually. And that is something I would like to fix.

    Next release should be in a couple of days, depending on how fast I can work out some of the fixes I want to make.
     
  11. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    a5 released
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_a5.bsp.bz2

    wider doorways, more open mid, restructuring at 2nd, mid spawns moved, flatbedtrain on last moved, optimization fixes, garage door at last opens down, removed secondary entrance to forward spawn, flank between 2nd-mid not a deathpit and slightly shorter. And more that I don't remember.

    I did a lot of significant changes, hopefully for the better.
    Now I'm somewhat worried about the sniperlines at mid, however, I would like to wait and see if they're actually a threat before I wreck the rest of the arena with ugly and unfitting cover everywhere.

    [​IMG]
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    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  12. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Just played it. Pretty fun. Think you might want to rethink last a bit, in terms of having height behind the point. Also, might want to move the medium health pack at middle. As of right now, demos on rollout always go left to get the health, and then you just want to start spamming. If you put the medium either right as you exit flank, up against the small ledge, or backed up to the buildings which surround middle near that same exit), the demo could choose which direction to attack at middle.
     
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  13. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    I think i mentioned it in the gameday but i still don't really like the fences. Fences tend to be more annoying than serve as any consistant cover. But i have observed certain trends that make them work:

    Either they're really small, insignicant wooden ones built at the lowest grid setting; easily jumped over and of little intrusion to shots over/through them.

    The prop railings set to have no collision, but with playerclips. Also relatively low and easy to jump over and of lilttle consequence to armed battles (like self damage from rockets not aligning to the curser and hitting the fence).

    Or solid fences with metal sheets blocking gaps, visually demonstrating its effectiveness as cover, but still able to be jumped over.

    These work really well in official maps and i've paid attention to fences a lot in my own maps as i've often had problems finding something that feels nice. Forcing players to jump onto fences in order to shoot over them isn't the best option to force players to take as it makes gameplay fiddly and a nuisance. Most catwalks don't have railings or if they do they fall into those 3 categories. But the primary issue is that they don't get in the way of players. That they obviously do or don't interupt projectiles, can be easily jumped over and are either thin enough not to obstruct too much view or solid enough to obviously serve as cover.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 26, 2011
  14. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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    http://www.mediafire.com/?sia982o42qi56pq Stv from the pug that Scorpio mentioned.

    You might want to consider redoing the spawn exits on last a little, the way it is, it's really easy to transition from side to side thru the doors which could be a problem, I don't really know how easy that would be to fix, though. Some one complained that the spawn gives you too much of an advantage thru the height it provides to spam the point, but I don't know if it's really a bad thing to have a last that you can defend some what, esp since it caps pretty fast. I also don't know if you want to make it so you can get into the forward respawn the way the flank on 2nd is now. It's really easy to duck in and out at this point since you can always run into it. If you remove the ability to run in there, though, you'd probably have to throw a lunchbox or something closer to that point of the map, though, so that defenders can still hold flank so I don't really know what the best decision would be. Some people complained that there were a lot of corners, extra spaces, and various other things you could use to hide in and they felt you should try to clean it up a bit by removing some of the crates and overall just reduce the hiding spots since hiding spots tend to increase quite a bit once you detail a map. I can get you screens of some of the hiding spots if you want, just let me know and I can fire up my game to find them again.
     
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  15. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    All good observations. I will watch the demo later today.

    For the last spawn, I really haven't put much thought into it, it just kind of landed at that height by chance when I forcefully moved it forward. Is the problem the height alone though? Or is it in combination with the close proximity to safety (spawnroom).
    The forward spawn.. hm yeah I thought a bit about how it got a little too much use, so I removed the smaller secondary doorway to it. If it still causes problems I'll just lock it completely when you don't own 2nd. There is a medium health kit just next to the spawnroom for anyone to use when defending or pushing.

    About the handrails that grazr mentioned. Yeah I'll probably switch to something else, these are kinda odd in the way they block lvl1 and minisentries...
     
  16. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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    I think it's both the height and the fact that you can duck in so quickly. I know snakewater got a lot of grief about how easy it was to swap through spawn on defense in some of its earlier versions. Your spawn is easy to get into, but it's also pretty easy to stick up or otherwise spam as well, so once you back in you probably won't get out if the other team has presence on the point. I don't know if I'm really sold on it being a problem or not, but I could see that it could become annoying if you don't have a demo with you to stick off the main doors on last spawn if people keep rotating thru the doors.

    And, I know about the medium by forward, I guess I meant to say that that pack and maybe an ammo kit should be moved to like the right of the forward so you don't have to leave the forward area as much to get ammo. That might make it too easy, though, and it would probably be odd to have that much health right outside a spawn exit.
     
  17. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    A6 released!
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/maps/cp_evergreen_a6.bsp.bz2
    A pretty small update, no radical layout changes.

    Changelog:
    Added a balcony area at 2nd.
    Switched the sizes of medkits in the building between 2nd and last.
    Forward spawn can not be re-entered, and locker removed.
    Health and ammo pickup at mid has been moved up on the platform.
    Handrails have been replaced, now uses the design from in pl_goldrush.
    Minor timer edits that I wont specify, see if you notice!
    Fall damage out of first spawn should be eliminated, unless you aim to go into the "pit"
     
  18. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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  19. HellJumper

    aa HellJumper

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    I don't have any specific points to critique, but overall I enjoyed your map-- it had a very familiar feeling even though it was the first time I played it. I'll probably post back when I have better feedback!
     
  20. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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    http://www.mediafire.com/?51veg6e67av1akx

    Stv from another pug. One of the comments that stood out to me was that the window exit onto mid could probably be a gate or a door to make it easier to get through. One demo complained about not really being able to fight the other demo at mid, he wasn't able to place initial sticks on the other demo, but that might've just been them taking different routes or just not having played the map enough to really know what to expect at mid.
     
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