Valve Acceptance vs. Community Acceptance
- Thread starter WarmHandSanitizer
- Start date
Fireslash got a job at Valve.
YM applied, got an interview.
Other people from the community with jobs in the industry:
IrishTaxiDriver - Level Designer at Raven Software
Rexy - Enviro. Art Intern at Raven Software
Icarus - Bioware
Arttu Maki (guy who made cp_fastlane) - Rovio, doing Angry birds level design last I saw.
3DNJ - Worked at Ubisoft for a little while.
I'm probably missing someone, this is just based on what I've stumbled on or who I've talked to. Don't know about Fishbus or flobster. Far before my time.
Drunken F00l could have got a job at Valve if he wasn't constantly fucking with them and/or hacking their software. Not that he's a TF2maps.net user. But he's famous in the TF scene since before it was an official mod for Half-Life 1.
The very first maps to go official were maps voted good by "the community". Or by community i mean the outspoken people over at 2F2F. Unfortunately popular vote doesn't always translate as an accurate portrayel of quality. Most of the maps that came out of or got the green light from that place (and probably the very maps in question) are almost never played and are used as examples of what not to do for a TF2 map.
Unfortunately this was a failure on the TF2 communities side as well as Valve's. Valve shouldn't have been so easily swayed by an online version of flash mobbing, i guess they were easily impressed by 2 thousand emails saying "this map is awesomes! make it official". As opposed to actually being impressed by the map itself. But the game was new and desperate for new content and i guess that meant vicariously Valve was desperate to include content of questionable quality.
Later when TF2maps got more publicity from events, actually tested and balanced maps got into the game. Not that the only good maps came from here. But we're proud of our efforts to provide quality over shere peer pressure and internet shinnanigans.
Unfortunately TF2 players want "maps now". This means they're unwilling to go through the painful process of testing potentially bad maps, let alone experimental maps. This is especially true of the competitive scene who have a habit of refusing to test any map that isn't already in beta (completely missing the point of alpha testing). Although that's not so bad now. For a large while they thought map testing = finding clip bugs and only that.
The very first maps to go official were maps voted good by "the community". Or by community i mean the outspoken people over at 2F2F. Unfortunately popular vote doesn't always translate as an accurate portrayel of quality. Most of the maps that came out of or got the green light from that place (and probably the very maps in question) are almost never played and are used as examples of what not to do for a TF2 map.
Unfortunately this was a failure on the TF2 communities side as well as Valve's. Valve shouldn't have been so easily swayed by an online version of flash mobbing, i guess they were easily impressed by 2 thousand emails saying "this map is awesomes! make it official". As opposed to actually being impressed by the map itself. But the game was new and desperate for new content and i guess that meant vicariously Valve was desperate to include content of questionable quality.
Later when TF2maps got more publicity from events, actually tested and balanced maps got into the game. Not that the only good maps came from here. But we're proud of our efforts to provide quality over shere peer pressure and internet shinnanigans.
Unfortunately TF2 players want "maps now". This means they're unwilling to go through the painful process of testing potentially bad maps, let alone experimental maps. This is especially true of the competitive scene who have a habit of refusing to test any map that isn't already in beta (completely missing the point of alpha testing). Although that's not so bad now. For a large while they thought map testing = finding clip bugs and only that.
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Drunken F00l did get a job at valve because he was constantly hacking/screwing with their software.
I knew I forgot someone notable.
Sel
Banned
- Feb 18, 2009
- 1,239
- 2,570
2F2F has been dead forever. I have no idea what happened to the sites themselves though, that's insane.
Also, Steel rules, and that was a 2F2F map. Frontier was too, and it's not phenomenal but it's well loved.
And yeah, last time Hammer was broken and I emailed Valve, drunken fool (aka Tony Paloma) was the one that replied to me first. He's been there a while.
Also, Steel rules, and that was a 2F2F map. Frontier was too, and it's not phenomenal but it's well loved.
And yeah, last time Hammer was broken and I emailed Valve, drunken fool (aka Tony Paloma) was the one that replied to me first. He's been there a while.
The site is actually still up. http://forums.2f2f.net/
Why the home page has been replaced with that image (which is dated May 2011 and was not there 3 months ago) is beyond me.
The server gets populated maybe once a week, weekend nights mostly, but that's about it. It's been like that for about a year now. People still hang out in the shoutbox, but discussion is really slow compared to what it used to be.
Grazr, I talked to a bunch of comp players, and they DO NOT CARE too much for a good-looking map, but that adds to it. Layout, however... They DO care. Beta means a solid laid out, optmized and detailed map. Once you have a solid layout, you're done.
Fish 2.0
L6: Sharp Member
- Nov 22, 2012
- 324
- 262
They say they don't care - but I think they do.
Everyone wants a nice looking map. I think it would actually hinder a match by not having it look nice. Too distracting with all the colors and solid walls.
I'm guessing having his main account VAC banned was nothing more than a publicity stunt then? Since, afterall, Valve employees get free rain over Valve products like their collection of games.
I seem to remember an email conversation where he basically mocked them and some of the staff and implied he wouldn't want to work there even if they asked. But it's cool that they acknolwedge his skill and community work since he's basically supported the TF community in ways far greater than most of us combined.
That wasn't really my point. My point was comp players want to play a balanced map so they can PUG properly on it. Which you can't do on an alpha. Thus comp players don't ever play alpha's because they don't enjoy it. But as i said. It's better these days than it was 2 years ago, after more vocal players became admins in their respective communities (ETF2L for example) and basically told the players if they want new and decent maps they have to contribute to the effort to acquire those maps instead of expecting a gem to fall into their laps.
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Exactly. I gathered a bunch of information from lobbies, and the main questions were:
"Would you play a map that isn't that much detailed?'
"What is the most important aspect of the map: flank routes or chokes?"
"Would you play a map that has an area that isn't all that awesome?"
So, a lot of them said "Yes" to the first question, they divided their opinions (flanks over chokes for people that were playing as Scout, Pyro, Spy or Medic - chokes over flanks for Snipers, Heavies, Soldiers, Demos and Engies). And "Maybe" to the last question. So they basically won't care too much if the map has a problem here or there, but one area will weight to their decision if it's badly laid out.
"Whats more important: flanks or chokes?" Is, in fairness, as dumb a question as "Which is more important in a novel: vowels or consonants?"
What adds more to the game, I mean.
Honestly, what would be their favorite places while in game.
But according to Crash, my research is basically fucked up.
This. They're also incredibly fickle IMO, much more so than the "average" TF2 player. And once they dismiss a map, that's pretty much it. It's much more difficult to get further testing on it.
If you ever get lucky enough to get a comp team, or regular pugs, or someone like ScorpioRising giving you feedback, treat them with respect because it's few and far between to get quality competitive feedback like that.
Whatever happened to that idea about making a competitive map thread? I think between all of us, we can hash out what actually makes a good competitive map by analyzing the popular ones.
I think it's a much safer investment of energy to ignore the competitive community entirely, and make a 5cp map you think is fun. Then if competitive players decide they like it, they can play it.
I just think it's too hard to get any useful information out of a comp player, they consume maps completely differently than any other type of player. Their primary goal is to use the geometry to make defeating an enemy more efficient, and it's hard to know what works until they've tried it out.
I just think it's too hard to get any useful information out of a comp player, they consume maps completely differently than any other type of player. Their primary goal is to use the geometry to make defeating an enemy more efficient, and it's hard to know what works until they've tried it out.
On the other hand, if you make a good map for a competitive league, your map gets guaranteed playtime. I sometimes feel like custom map servers are being replaced by trade/idle/joke map servers, so the idea of making a 5CP for comp that actually gets played and spread around to otherwise vanilla servers is very appealing.
Know your audience.
Know your audience.
I think the email convo was a stunt, the VAC ban was him doing it to himself...
SyntheticSauce
L1: Registered
- Jun 23, 2012
- 19
- 7
The way Valve picks community maps to be official is a mystery to me also. It seems like Valve feeds the community with the addition of new game modes, updates, and workshop items graciously and logically, but the way they select maps is very random and unorganized. I believe that there should be times where maps may be submitted to be put officially in the game(like how you guys host mapping contests, except the winner gets a prize not submission into the game). The maps should be evaluated by members of the Team Fortress 2 community who have time and experience like veteran highlander players, mappers and Valve employees. Then the community can vote on maps that they like while more experienced participants have a more weighted say. Valve shines light on community added into the game while community maps are collecting dust to the general Team Fortress 2 community.Even though there are many problems with the maps they do pick. Also, contributors to the workshop make a copious amount of money for their contributions for how much time they spend on them compared to mappers. Overall, I really hope that Valve picks up their game with making community maps official.