The Future of Compensation for TF2 Mappers: A Community / Valve Discussion

EArkham

Necromancer
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Aug 14, 2009
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While on my jog, I had a couple of additional thoughts on enhancing some existing incentives:

1) Strange Filters work like crap currently. They ONLY count kills on a particular map, and stop counting on others. Instead, there should be more traditional Strange Parts like:

  • Strange Part: Kills on <mapname>
  • Strange Part: Time Spent on <mapname> (hours:minutes:seconds)
  • Strange Part: Games Won on <mapname>

2) The map stamp hat is kinda meh; the effect is hard to see and it's only the one hat. Perhaps instead there should be a series of Unusualifiers, which can be applied to any hat, with new map themed Unusual effects -- but they are only visible on that particular map. For example, "Coldfront Snowflakes Unusualifier," or "Mann Manor Tiny Spooks Unusualifier."

Also on a completely unrelated and off-topic note, I would freaking kill for an unusual effect that was a swarm of tiny ghosts.
 

xzzy

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Jan 30, 2010
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Or how about an unusual effect that isn't bound to a model, you just drop it in a cosmetic slot and get stuff floating around your head.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
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Sep 5, 2010
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but the issue with doing unusuals though, for the mapper to get most of the money, either valve needs to make the effect, or the mapper themselves. If a modeler makes it, then they get a decent cut of the sale.


I still think that we're looking at the wrong thing right now, I seriously think that focusing on how to have better feedback between Valve and the mapping communities would be more beneficial for both of them, rather than just some monetization thing. (That being said, I'm not saying that monetization is bad, I'm just saying that the feedback would build a better community in the long-run)
 

ZeSpice

L2: Junior Member
Mar 17, 2014
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The issue still is: How do you create a system that not only rewards officialized mappers, but also promotes people to create high-quality maps AND breaks down the communication barrier between Valve and the mapping communities?

Workshop and some contests. And someone from valve who will curate all of thise (Also, we need someone from valve who will directly communicate with community. Once a month via steam chat or something like that. And all this sounds much better that nothing.) More posts on tf2blog about mapping and the mapping community.
Perhaps we need examples (as in, good examples) that a good, well though-out and well designed map is a lot better than a pile of brushes with an orange texture in it.

Yeah, Ideas with some items and decals is great. And "selling" maps like in cs:go is a really bad idea.



P.S. Knowing that valve love tf2mapmaking community is great <3
 

Fruity Snacks

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Workshop will be meh, in the sense that it's very easy for feedback to be lost amognst the crowds. It'll be better as publishing tool and a 'broad feedback' tool, rather than a 'you can specifically make things better' ... Contests are good, yes, but having 1 contest a year sponsored by valve won't help. They're kind of 1-off things. More interaction is needed.

For someone at valve to be a liason with the mapping communities, that person has to want to do it amongst all their other work and frankly, I don't think there is someone who wants to do that. If it was the case, we would've already seen someone already.

Blogposts would be good, but then we'd need a writer, someone who has solid writing skills either here (and is reviewed by valve) or AT valve who can do the writing. Either way, it's more time from valve.

EDIT: I should've posted more community management stuff on my Valve Application :/
 
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EArkham

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I still think that we're looking at the wrong thing right now, I seriously think that focusing on how to have better feedback between Valve and the mapping communities would be more beneficial for both of them, rather than just some monetization thing. (That being said, I'm not saying that monetization is bad, I'm just saying that the feedback would build a better community in the long-run)

Well, see, that's just it. I don't think there's really anything we can do about that. It's all pretty firmly in Valve's hands, since it's their side of things that's quiet.

Individual mappers mailing them regularly (without response), or nominating a liaison from the community (who may or may not get a response)... just what else can we do in the face of silence? Keep mapping and keep putting our opinions in a public place.

Believe me, I'd LOVE to hear feedback, good or bad, on any of my maps from Valve.

Maybe if the tf2maps.net feedback pages had a Valve-employee place for them to leave commentary, that only the map owner could see. Again though, it lies with them to make the effort to communicate.
 

UKCS-Alias

Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?
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Sep 8, 2008
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2) The map stamp hat is kinda meh; the effect is hard to see and it's only the one hat. Perhaps instead there should be a series of Unusualifiers, which can be applied to any hat, with new map themed Unusual effects -- but they are only visible on that particular map. For example, "Coldfront Snowflakes Unusualifier," or "Mann Manor Tiny Spooks Unusualifier."
They also made an effect when you taunt which is better visible (but obviously during normal play never visible).

To make it even more visible. I think its best to show it on the scoreboard like the killstreak counter. A visible ticket even if it is the same for 1 or 100 stamps still make a player visible for supporting the map. It doesnt even have to be a foreground thingy.

Or as alternative: show it on the screen when you inspect him, or he killed you, or maybe even when he is just healing you/you are aiming at him. Or as MVP. Just have the ticket visible next to his name.

And a side feature that i think would also be more rewarding to medal winners and map supporters: allow a player to select a featured item from the loadout. This can be a strange weapon with such counter, but also a mappers medalion (since its barely visible on the chest), or an unusual. It might be minimal to support mappers but all bits help. This one could show on the deathscreen or be the first item to see when inspecting (or have 2 items inspected at once).

And last: instead of only showing the top X from the duels, show the top X donators from the server you are in with that (alternatively the same for duels). Rather than having to rely on a large friends list this has an instant effect even if you are a new player.

Showing off that you are a good donator to friends just wont do it. many dont have such large list.
I also hope that Valve doesn't discriminate against maps that aren't comp-friendly, as they seem to have done in the past. Some maps are designed specifically for pubs, and that's totally fine.
MvM being a primary example of being a non comp gamemode. But yes... i do heavily agree that pub should be more important than comp. Comp games have rules and those can simply be that certain maps are excluded. They do the same with weapons already.
Perhaps a good idea is to... seperate some maps from being included in the game by default(such as VSH, trade, etc) but still let them have proceeds available, whether that's via the crate method or some other way. That would stop the vanilla game from being flooded with trade/vsh/orange maps, while still letting the creators of those earn money from their hard work.
That just wont be a good idea. What you could call a bad map an other player could call excelent. Some simply judge diffirent. Not to mention opening the door for plagiarism

See cp_orange, a map i never would want to play on. Some will call it excelent, and if they want to donate to that author allow them. The problem though would be variations on that map. They would have to refer to the original which in that case they cant. For that reason i would call a whilelist of maps a safer choise.

However with the workshop you could set a reference to a source as map. So cp_orange_xyz_pyropete also gives donations to cp_orange. Before even accepting a donation people then still would have to rate the map, this would prevent spam of such maps since those would get downrated fast. And plagiarism can be prevented better since less maps will get through that check in the first place.

Allowing all maps is a bad idea as it means people just will spam as much as possible to be lucky. And plagiarism can get out of control that way.
 
Apr 14, 2013
663
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First I'll like to say that although it is a good idea to make a map workshop, and I am certainly not against it, it will not be a quality feedback source. TF2maps.net will remain the serious place for mapping, because

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▓▓▓▓▓█░░░░ Valve ░░░█
▓▓▓▓▓█░░░ Add This ░░█
▓▓▓▓▓█░░░ Please! ░░░░█
▓▓▓▓▓█spam some more!░█
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I think that adding some way to play custom maps through quickplay would be a good idea. What I think of is maybe to add an option in the quickplay gui to enable/disable servers w/ custom maps for each gamemode (like the "has users playing", "supports replays" and such, in the server browser) (obviously th default is set to "enable").
I also think the idea (that was already mentioned) of adding some Valve servers running quality custom maps will be good. Those servers should maybe connect somehow to our site's well-known !fb system, so players could help the development? That will be insanely useful for getting lots of feedback, from a much wider audience!


I think the main problem with people mostly caring about hats instead of maps, is that valve mostly care about hats and items. Just look at the tf2.com updates. Valve makes a huge fuss of hats. NO-ONE will care about some visual changes to your player, THAT YOU CAN"T EVEN SEE, that requires you to PAY REAL MONEY, if Valve didn't seem like they care about it. Not only are maps very important to the game, unlike hats (Hats have nothing to do with gameplay) they are very visible and are FREE. I think that the solution for the players not caring about maps is if valve will change their marketing-saxon hale thing prespective about maps. Valve needs to pull more attention towards maps. I thought of some map references in comics, some more voicelines (like the demo's "this map ain't big enough[...]"). Maybe even add some new "saxon hale supports maps" thing.


'a community map uploaded to the tf2 map workshop is tied to your steam account / wallet. people can somehow donate to their current map if its verified in the workshop, so even if its a non-standard community map, the author could still get compensation for it - even if its a miniscule amount going towards them in the end'.

One suggestion that has been suggested to Valve is that every normal crate that drops on a custom map gets tagged with thats map name. Whenever a key is used to open that crate, a % of the money used to buy that key is given to the mapper.


People who make orange clones will be millioners. And people will make lots of achievement/trade maps so servers will run them and they get money. It will make people create maps in order to get as big of an audience, instead of making the good old standard maps that no-one plays.




...Not that I have a problem with that
 

ZeSpice

L2: Junior Member
Mar 17, 2014
94
34
Workshop will be meh, in the sense that it's very easy for feedback to be lost amognst the crowds. It'll be better as publishing tool and a 'broad feedback' tool, rather than a 'you can specifically make things better' ... Contests are good, yes, but having 1 contest a year sponsored by valve won't help. They're kind of 1-off things. More interaction is needed.

For someone at valve to be a liason with the mapping communities, that person has to want to do it amongst all their other work and frankly, I don't think there is someone who wants to do that. If it was the case, we would've already seen someone already.

Blogposts would be good, but then we'd need a writer, someone who has solid writing skills either here (and is reviewed by valve) or AT valve who can do the writing. Either way, it's more time from valve.

EDIT: I should've posted more community management stuff on my Valve Application :/

Tf2maps.net could do contests with partial help from Valve. And one contest from Valve a year is better than none.
Workshop with a better, broader voting system for maps (design, ballance, fun etc) and an added feature to vote within a game like Portal 2 maps (and also give an ability to leave a short comment)
About the guy from valve, let there be one rep from valv, one rep from tf2map community, and let them some time talk/answer question from the community in an inquery thread like this.
For a blog its good enough to just have it for the contest announcements from tf2maps.net, which should be at least something.
And also have posts about making maps, written by someone from the community.
This should also be a good first step.



just some newbie's "imo". ._.
 

phantom26

L1: Registered
Nov 8, 2012
19
2
I'd kind of like them to remove certain tf2 restrictions from hammer. Say for instances vehicles, while I know it'd probably take a lot time on their part, it'd open up a whole new door to creativity in maps. Plus unrestricting certain features that were restricted before would add more incentive for people to want to map.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TYRYxXIwxE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS3B_iRrsFA

You can see in the above videos people have been trying workarounds for this but that's just one example. One problem I personally struggle with is trying to keep my maps download size (including custom models/textures) to a minimum so that people will actually bother downloading it. If they'd make it easier to say make custom map props created by the community more easily available in hammer then that would more than likely increase the quality of maps created IMO. Like maybe add props such in a way that they add weapons in the workshop. Overall I'd say valve needs to focus on the tools that they give us if they want to ensure better quality maps. I'm sure a lot of people would probably disagree with me though but that's just my opinion.
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
One suggestion that has been suggested to Valve is that every normal crate that drops on a custom map gets tagged with that's map name.

Whenever a key is used to open that crate, a % of the money used to buy that key is given to the mapper. More popular maps would have more crates that are dropped on them, across the population who plays them, so, more money to the mappers.

I also think this sounds like a really good idea at the moment! It would be a fair way to promote fun & high-quality maps since they’d get more rewarded than the less-played ones, and it doesn't have any of the problems that a restrictive pay-to-play system would have, such as dividing the player base and causing bad reputation. Basically, it’s a fair system for both the users who decide to pay, and those who don’t.

Drop-boosters and XP-boosters have always been frowned upon in F2P games since they appear as very pay-to-win, no matter whether they actually are or not, and I personally don’t think that would be the best idea.


You may also want some way to motivate users to take advantage of the crate system. Here is a mock-up example I made to demonstrate how you could make map-specific crates more attractive for the end user:
1862abe11ae725d6804144a91cb690b6.png
In this example, map-specific crates aren't simply a regular crate with a little tag in the description, but rather a unique-looking, name-labeled special crate with a thumbnail image of its map attached to it. Also, the description states clearly what is special about it and how a percentage of the money goes to the person who created the map. This means players will instantly notice it’s a special crate, and they will also understand that buying a key to open it means you’re doing something special for that map. If the map-specific crates looked exactly like normal crates and had the same attributes, most people wouldn't think about it, and not as much fuzz would be generated around opening them or supporting map makers.

fb4be5053757891015fec08de6dc7853.png
In addition, any item unboxed from this map-specific crate shows what map it comes from; so that players who really like a certain map can show their support towards that map by labeling their items with it.
One idea you might have is to have the crates contain different items depending on what map they were found on, but I don’t think that’s a good idea as it would end up with people playing on certain maps just because their crates had the most valuable items, which isn't fair at all for the creators of the other maps.

Another thing that would require a little bit more effort, but would look very cool, would be to give all the crates a map-specific look in the icon, and give all the items found from that crate a map-specific description, like this:
4636e489fc262d049d8e5e02dbb9abcc.png
A small touch, but it might still be enough to get some people more interested.

I’m extremely excited for the TF2 map workshop, and I have some ideas regarding that as well.
The crate system (obviously, at least in my mind) would only apply to official maps, so maps that are still in the workshop wouldn't get any more playtime from it. Therefore, I think a good thing to do would be to also add a “Workshop” or “Custom” option for users in the quickplay system that would enable the most top-rated maps in the map workshop for quickplay eligibility. This would motivate server owners to host more custom maps and help map makers get more people playing their map if it gets a high rating in the workshop. It would also be good for the players who are looking for more map variation and don’t want to search all day for a populated server that hosts good custom maps.
c2de297e6aa9230cf90e2f9165641f0b.png
 

InstantMuffin

L2: Junior Member
May 26, 2014
64
48
I agree, however I think the plugin developers should get more support as well.
As in, way more support than now.
I am very very lucky to be in the position to reach out to Matt Wood from the CSGO team to port TNG. I wish it would always be easier and like this, and maybe the other way around. People from Valve coming towards us.
 

Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
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Nov 14, 2009
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The issue still is: How do you create a system that not only rewards officialized mappers, but also promotes people to create high-quality maps AND breaks down the communication barrier between Valve and the mapping communities?
I don't think Valve's lack of communication with the community is something that any "system" can fix. They've tried it before with their bug tracker on GitHub, and look how that turned out: While it has led to some long-standing issues finally getting noticed and dealt with (Half-Life: Opposing Force and Blue Shift finally getting their original soundtracks remastered and restored? Pinch me; I'm dreaming!), others have simply been ignored for over a year (Half-Life 2's HDR bug, Opposing Force being unwinnable due to the final cutscene trigger not working), and Valve employees haven't been spotted on the "Source 1" section in months.

And the reason is the same issue that underlies all of Valve's problems: Their flat organizational structure. I'm sure it makes Valve a great place to work at, and it's led to all kinds of unbridled creativity, but it's not good for ensuring that certain things get done. Nothing is anybody's job, and if there's a particular feature that only one person is working on, and they get distracted by something else that interests them more, not only are there no consequences, but it might be months or even years before anyone else even notices that the project isn't being worked on anymore. Just look at one of the recent updates — they discovered that they'd had payload voice lines for the Demoman, Spy, Medic, and Soldier already recorded and just sitting around that nobody had actually gotten around to adding to the game.

I'm not saying the flat org structure is a failure and that they should go back to a traditional heirarchy; I'm saying they need to address these internal issues somehow. Better documentation of what's being done by whom, ways to track what's not being done by anyone, and some way to hold people accountable for abandoning the projects they signed on to do. And whatever it is, needs to be tightly integrated into their structure like the annual coworker evaluations so that it doesn't fall by the wayside itself like everything else. In other words, so it doesn't end up like this.
 

A Boojum Snark

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Nov 2, 2007
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I'd kind of like them to remove certain tf2 restrictions from hammer. Say for instances vehicles, while I know it'd probably take a lot time on their part, it'd open up a whole new door to creativity in maps. Plus unrestricting certain features that were restricted before would add more incentive for people to want to map.
This is off topic, but: these aren't restrictions per se, the code simply isn't there. Just because a different game on Source has the code doesn't mean TF2 has it and it is "turned off"
 

EArkham

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Aug 14, 2009
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Haha, "This is our time to be heard!"

<everyone goes quiet>

---

I've been thinking about this a bit more. I think there are two important things we can do -

  • Make it easier for Valve employees to offer feedback to a map maker
  • Filter the content so they're not wading through unfinished/unsuitable maps

For filtering, that could be achieved best with a community liasion I think. Someone who'll pick a group of, say, 4 maps and present them to a Valve contact for review. And of course we already have the map showcase.

Possibly a hidden voting system, similar to contest voting (categories for aesthetics, gameplay, technical) to make the liasion's job easier.

Making correspondance with a map maker easier, or adding a map rating system here seems redundant with the idea of a Map Workshop. Which is why we'd have to do an extra layer of organization - deeper, more meaningful ratings, maps picked by theme or mode, etc.