surge of "gimmick" maps?

[Randdalf]

The water in my own ctf_downpour is most definately a gimmick, but it's a gimmick that works, people found it fun and it totally changed how the level played over the duration of the match. Unlike most gimmicks, it changed the gameplay without removing the core ctf mechanics, and I think that's what good gimmicks do.

Yes, downpour wasn't artistically excellent, but what do you expect from a beta, a finished map?

 

[AWESOME-O]

[*]map that is really bad but everything else is normal (eg warpath or ctf_clash) = non gimmick

BOOOOOO!

 

[grazr]

I think you need to understand that noobie mappers KNOW they are shit at it and have NO reason to think they are good at it in the first place. They release stuff they have made because people can give pointers and tips as to what they can use tool wise and design whise to make it better.

They dont need a cockbag telling them their map is shit and it would never get on my server BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW THAT.

They want tips like, hey, it would look much better if you did blah with the lights, or, you need to work with the scale of your map as its abit too big and would look much better if you made maps to scale in the future. Try not to strech the textures because they look bad compared to if you didn't, or, maps look bad with big blocks of the same texture on a big/long brush so try and break it up with another design or break the line of sight to it with props to draw the attention away.

You lose nothing by giving small tips and help to noobie mappers and tbh by doing so you are helping the entire community because that mapper may one day release a damn good map. But if you cock block him early on he may just think f*** it.

How could you give feedback to a map like that? It would be built to no standards, where would you start to recommend improvements? There is no layout, people spawn randomly across the map most likely, there are probably no props.

It's like watching a basketball player trying to do tricks in the middle of a court. He's not trying to play basketball he's just faffing about, so it would be pointless telling him how to do a "layup" and score 2 points for his team because that's not what he's trying to do.

You can normally see if a map is trying to be more, and then you can help. The only suggestions i could think of for gimmick maps would be, make custom models and textures so it actually looks nice.

People can give pointers with screen shots uploaded to a forum such as this, there is no need to flood servers with your noobie map.

 

[Standard]

You can normally see if a map is trying to be more, and then you can help. The only suggestions i could think of for gimmick maps would be, make custom models and textures so it actually looks nice.

What is with this stupid obsession that for a map to be fun and good it needs to look like valve made it? Your head is in the clouds and you are pissing on the people below.

 

[Shmitz]

You're completely missing the point. He's saying that with a map that is shooting for standard gameplay, there's a lot of helpful suggestions people can make because there are plenty of examples of maps where that gametype works. When it's a gimmick map, there's a lot less that can be said, other than improving the visuals.

 

[TotalMark]

Standard gameplay is capturing intel, control points, payload, or any combination there of?

 

[Shmitz]

Yes, basically anything found in the stock valve maps.

 

[Ace]

The other option is for new mappers to stop thinking they are the shit, because they are not, they suck. its plain and simple: if you've never made a map before then the map you make will be total shit, regardless of how super awesome you think it is.


Most of me wants to discourage places like this, here its so easy to get your first shit-box map tested and get good feedback mappers dont have the fear of the evil comunity that they should. So mappers are fine with releaseing their very first map as something they are proud of. WTF! would an art student release the very first crayon doodle they did as a child and be proud of it? hell no! Of course they wouldn't, they probably want to hide it away in shame and never let anyone see it. THAT is how you should feel about probably your first, second and probably your third mapping attempt (attempt not public release).

So you see, when everyone sugar coats things and tells the frankly shit newbies they are 'doing good' or some similar euphamism its not really an incentive to better themselves, or even to try in the first place.

You give me alot to think about with these posts.
Should I just give up with my first map seeing its already "shit" even though its only 10% completed?
Not my style, I'll keep on it, and keep on it and keep on it.

I guess I have to say thanks in a way because I know how much harder I will try after reading this post. So thanks you asshole

Anyway when it is finished, when I release cp_mineshaft. I want you to comment on it, I really do.

And, do you know what I want you to say Youme?

Tell me its shit.

"This map is FUCKING SHIT" <-- That is what I want you to write, really I do, then I want everybody else on the forum to agree with you.

Because after reading your posts I think to my self,
"I'ma gona make the best first map EVER! Just to proove Youme wrong"
It may be, it probably won't be, but I'd like to think it will be.

And before any comments cp_mineshaft really is the first map I have done for any game, I have not used any moddeling software before and the closest thing to hammer that I have come across up to now is MS Paint, (not really that close).

P.S. Positive critasisms still would be liked up to final release

Anybody else who wants to proove Youme wrong, here is my WIP

 

[MangyCarface]

Enh, I'm going to get booed here by the people that think Valve's style is already "too used" but whatever.

I think a map can be a gimmick map if the level of graphical polish and artistic style don't justify the time spent on gameplay, or if they don't add to gameplay at all.

My justification for this is somewhat like so:
A map that is all blocky dev textures is gimmicky if released.
A map that has had textures applied and minimal propwork is a good late alpha or early beta level and is just a poor map if released.
A map whose architecture and graphical flow reinforce its gameplay by subtly guiding the player and giving different areas varying gradients of importance is ready to be released. It is one of Valve's maps if released.

I can't consider cp_steel gimmicky because its graphical style complements its gameplay and the possibly gimmicky mechanisms reinforce the teamwork aspect of the game. Gimmicks stop being gimmicks once players feel the added mechanisms are natural. Cause and effect presence has to be very strong, gameplay influence has to be very defined and controlled by the mapper, and implementation, graphically, fluid.

There are ways to bring gimmicks into the range of acceptable and honest gameplay additions, but god do you have to work to make the transition. Most gimmick mappers won't, and from this equation arises the surge of gimmick maps.

...Very few of which I've found fun : /

 

[grazr]

Youme's not telling you to give up, he's saying practice, a lot. If you want to go further perhaps release screenshots of your maps for feedback. If you need it played, test it on one server, like Colts playground. There's no reason for anyone to release their first map, especially on mass. People are impatient and seem to be getting ahead of themselves. I must have made about 50 maps over 3 years before any of my work saw the light of day. Frankly it was shameful, and people should be as self critical. Sure this is all for fun, but lets not take the piss. Your first map doesn't have to see release, and that's not a bad thing.

Hopefully i'm not wrong in that this is a place to allow people to develop and hone their skills, not release every bsp file they can bang out in quick succession.

 

[YM]

Now if I tell you its shit then you go away and make an awesome map you will have actually aided my arguement not proven me wrong.
If it is 10% done as you say then to comment on it would be unfair, only once its 100% playable (note: playable not finished) However once you finish it and release it unless you are an absolute natural with hammer it probably will, unfortunatly, be less than amazing.
If I'm honest and tell you it really isn't any good and you are one of the determind ones, who has what it takes, you'll shut yourself away and work even harder for your next map. But if I say it looks stunning I'll have lowered your standards for your next map, you'll only want to make something on par or just better, rather than hugely better.
Unfortunatly places like this make it seem like posting the very first map you've ever made (I mean ever) is ok. Its not, its just really not.

[Important bit]
You want to become a painter, but you've never touched a paintbrush or paints before in your life... do you make the very first thing you do a proper portrait and sell it? No of course not, you do studies of line qualities, brush stroke styles, colours, then you move on to more tricky things like painting a figure, but you'll still need to practice lots before you have something worth selling.
What you are doing is rushing in and selling your very first piece, you probably wont have stretched the canvas properly or you'll have left bits of it showing through or the colours might be horribly off and it doesn't really do the subject justice. Do you not think you should practice more before diving straight in at the deep end with a comissioned portrait?
[/Important bit]

I guess the problem is people don't realise that mapping is an artform and that they should treat it like they would treat a self emplyed job (If you don't provide the best service you can no one will want to pay for it so you'll not have an income...)

If and when I do pass comment on it I won't be saying anything along the lines of 'this is shit' because whilst telling a lie and saying its great isn't the best alternative, I'll provide constructive critique, Like "this area doesnt really work for reason X making it not very fun for class Y, you could sove this by doing Z" because that is more likely to be helpful than either of the two extreme responces.

Edit: Thanks Grazr, thats pretty much it. I made the same dm map (for hl2dm) three times (almost completely, it was about late beta stage each time). Each time I got significantly better but still after the third itteration I was not happy with the quality difference between my map and official ones like dm_lockdown or dm_overwatch. I never released it. No one other than me and one of my RL friends have ever seen it. Then I made some single player levels for HL2, I improved my work flow more and learnt yet more skills, I had one that was almost finished, posibly another few weeks work and it would have been a half decent map (one I'd have been ok with releasing publicly) but then I decided to move on as I had learnt about func_detail and I'd not been using it.
What I'm trying to say is, I'd had many many many many maps each almost ready for release before I actually released one I was proud of.

Mangy, could not agree more with you about people thinking the standard valve style has been done too many times. I just don't understand it..

 

[rt3407v06p909]

I guess the problem is people don't realise that mapping is an artform and that they should treat it like they would treat a self emplyed job (If you don't provide the best service you can no one will want to pay for it so you'll not have an income...)

Except it's not a job for 99.9999% of all mappers, and it's a game, and games should be fun. :w00t:

Please excuse me, Youme, while I map for the sheer fun of it.

 

[Nineaxis]

Valve Standard Gameplay = Good
Hybrid Valve Standard Gameplay < Good
Valve Standard Visual Style = Good
Nonstandard Visual Style = Bad, but dependent
Nonstandard Gameplay = Bad, but dependent
Balance/Teamwork = Good
No Balance/Teamwork = Bad

QED

 

[Ace]

I agree with you Youme on most points, my arguement is that a first, second, and so on maps should be labbeled shit by default.

Also I think your painter analagy is sligthly off. The first building I did was crap I have already redone all by building at least twice (up to 4 times). Once completely scrapping it and starting again as opposed to serious mods. This is still my first map, but not my first brush.
I think your analagy needs to be modified, I can paint over the canvas as many times as I like changing parts or changing it all, if the canvas is the map it still a first map, but not a first brushstroke.

Although, more painting will make a better artist but the first canvas may be quite good.

 

[YM]

Except it's not a job for 99.9999% of all mappers, and it's a game, and games should be fun. :w00t:

Please excuse me, Youme, while I map for the sheer fun of it.

It shouldn't be a burden, it should definatly be something you enjoy.
For me the real fun comes from playing the map, and the better I can make that map the more fun it is to play so I work hard to make it meet my own standards, if your standards of fun are lower and you dont feel you need to put as much effort into your maps then thats fine, just don't expect everyone else to find them fun.

Anyway, I'm going to give this thread a gentle nudge back towards gimmick maps rather than first maps. (yes, there is a difference!)

 

[grazr]

Your welcome Youme

With regards to style I think people believe the VALVe's style is boring or limited simply because there arn't that many maps out there at the moment. It's true.. there's hardly any maps, atleast compared to the old game, and other games as well. When people play the same payload map or cp map over and over, they think they've seen all that there is to have been offered. People find it boring, they don't realise so much more can be done with what's here, because it hasn't really happened yet. TF2 isn't that old, so there arn't many maps from the community either, but it's only a matter of time before we see an "I told you there's nothing wrong with the VALVe style" map (from the community or even VALVe, but it may be of greater impact if it was from the community to be honest). It' just a shame that we do have to work with a fairly limited texture pallette, i guess this comes with the limited map selection.

When more maps are released from the community on a professional scale i think more people will appreciate what can be done here if they just gave it a shot.

 

[rt3407v06p909]

For me the real fun comes from playing the map, and the better I can make that map the more fun it is to play so I work hard to make it meet my own standards, if your standards of fun are lower and you dont feel you need to put as much effort into your maps then thats fine, just don't expect everyone else to find them fun.

In point of fact, by your definition, every map I've produce is a gimmick map, and they are played for many hours each week by a dedicated group of people that absolutely love them.

It would be better, in the future, not to put words in my mouth, Youme, nor presume certain actions or work ethics on my part. I can only presume, because you didn't say otherwise, that the "you" and "your" in your quote above were referring to me specifically.

But to address your insults directly:
My standards are not lower. Quite the opposite. I personally find Valve maps to be very boring, tedious, and predictable. The effort I put into my maps is not less. Building maps that play well, regardless of thematic style, is challenging, and I have risen to that challenge. And many many people have found them fun.

Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean their opinion and experiences aren't valid, Youme. Valve maps are not the pinnacle of creation for everyone. The only reason we keep playing my maps week after week is because they're different than the Valve maps, because they're *gasp* GIMMICKS!!

 

[YM]

To set you straight, that statement was not aimed specifically at you, nor has it anything to do with being a definition of a gimmicky map. I considered removing it or adding extra clarification at the time but I didn't think you'd be able to misinterpret it so severely

 

[Dox]

Wow, somehow this turned into the biggest troll thread tf2maps.net has ever seen...

/me grabs popcorn

 

[Spike]

Wow, somehow this turned into the biggest troll thread tf2maps.net has ever seen...

/me grabs popcorn