surge of "gimmick" maps?
- Thread starter DJive
- Start date
cornontheCoD
L420: High Member
- Mar 25, 2008
- 437
- 70
for some reason, I just love Warpath. I have never had a stalemate on it, and many times my team has pushed back from the last point to win it, and vice versa. very fun map for me
Ive made poor gimmic maps for other HL mods in the past but as a first time TF2 mapper there are many different things that make up why first maps are what they are.
First maps help the mapper to learn about hammer and what it can do, so ofc they are going to look bad or scrappy. Even second and third maps are still going to be scrappy depending on how much the mapper has learnt. Its also a big hill for a beginner, when you are at the bottom and you look forward and think it will take a good 5 months to complete. Is it even worth all the time if assholes are going to shit on you every step of the way?
My first TF2 map was a rocket jump map aimed at internediate to hard rocket jumps. This means i spent time on the design of the map and how you would beat the jumps with whata soldier can do. Being a beginner, like most other jump maps, it was pretty standard vertical and horizontal brushes with the same texture and lighting. I stuck the map up on FPS Banana so like minded players who are interested in that could check out the designs of the jumps and see if they could complete the map.
The map got 2 reviews, both rated below a 1 out of 10 and the map got removed from the site within 1 day. The 2 guys who reviewed the map totaly ignored what i said the aim of the map was and rated it shit because it didnt look like dustbowl/2fort/whatever. WHO THE HELL COMPARES A ROCKETJUMP MAP WITH A MAP LIKE DUSTBOWL? Because of those 2 elitist assholes, other players didnt get to d/l and play the map from that site. It also makes a beginner think, why should i bother to learn more about hammer and mapping in general if 80% of the mapping community are cockbags who WILL unless you are a natural god at mapping flame you.
I quit bothering to map for a few months after that but after a request from a friend i made up a basic map for what he wanted. After i made it i spent a few days remaking it and learning to use the displacement tool to better effect. The remake of the map is probably the best so far that ive made but it is ofc still a gimmic map. Its a Death Match arena map where players can pick a class and have close combat fighting and train their aim.
Having people play your map is part of what you make it for. If elitist gfx whores are going to burn your shit down in such a quick time, would you even bother to try and make something that looks good? Because in 5 months time if its not good enough to satisfy the mapping gods (who probably havn't even released their own custom maps) you would have wasted your time.
So in brief:
- Beginners dont know how to fully use hammer or its tools, thus minimising what they can actualy do.
- Proper TF2 maps are made by professionals who get paid to map and have lots and lots of experiance and being their job, have lots of time to map which custom mappers dont have.
- The scale of a full TF2 map is way way too much for a single beginner to even think about, let alone take on.
The reason you see small gimmic maps from first time mappers is due to the above reasons.
Map links
My rocket jump map can be found here. Its designed for rockets so dont use a demo but for those of you who just like the graphical content of maps, you better use the demoman or dont download it at all.
http://files.filefront.com/rick+roll+rocketrar/;9997427;/fileinfo.html
I will post my 2nd map on this forum when its complete which shouldnt be very long at all if anyone is interested and isnt just going to shit talk.
Now im going to post a question in the help section on the mappers forum if i can find it because i am a noob still and i make noob gimmic maps for assholes to shit on. If i didnt they wouldnt have anything to do.
First maps help the mapper to learn about hammer and what it can do, so ofc they are going to look bad or scrappy. Even second and third maps are still going to be scrappy depending on how much the mapper has learnt. Its also a big hill for a beginner, when you are at the bottom and you look forward and think it will take a good 5 months to complete. Is it even worth all the time if assholes are going to shit on you every step of the way?
My first TF2 map was a rocket jump map aimed at internediate to hard rocket jumps. This means i spent time on the design of the map and how you would beat the jumps with whata soldier can do. Being a beginner, like most other jump maps, it was pretty standard vertical and horizontal brushes with the same texture and lighting. I stuck the map up on FPS Banana so like minded players who are interested in that could check out the designs of the jumps and see if they could complete the map.
The map got 2 reviews, both rated below a 1 out of 10 and the map got removed from the site within 1 day. The 2 guys who reviewed the map totaly ignored what i said the aim of the map was and rated it shit because it didnt look like dustbowl/2fort/whatever. WHO THE HELL COMPARES A ROCKETJUMP MAP WITH A MAP LIKE DUSTBOWL? Because of those 2 elitist assholes, other players didnt get to d/l and play the map from that site. It also makes a beginner think, why should i bother to learn more about hammer and mapping in general if 80% of the mapping community are cockbags who WILL unless you are a natural god at mapping flame you.
I quit bothering to map for a few months after that but after a request from a friend i made up a basic map for what he wanted. After i made it i spent a few days remaking it and learning to use the displacement tool to better effect. The remake of the map is probably the best so far that ive made but it is ofc still a gimmic map. Its a Death Match arena map where players can pick a class and have close combat fighting and train their aim.
Having people play your map is part of what you make it for. If elitist gfx whores are going to burn your shit down in such a quick time, would you even bother to try and make something that looks good? Because in 5 months time if its not good enough to satisfy the mapping gods (who probably havn't even released their own custom maps) you would have wasted your time.
So in brief:
- Beginners dont know how to fully use hammer or its tools, thus minimising what they can actualy do.
- Proper TF2 maps are made by professionals who get paid to map and have lots and lots of experiance and being their job, have lots of time to map which custom mappers dont have.
- The scale of a full TF2 map is way way too much for a single beginner to even think about, let alone take on.
The reason you see small gimmic maps from first time mappers is due to the above reasons.
Map links
My rocket jump map can be found here. Its designed for rockets so dont use a demo but for those of you who just like the graphical content of maps, you better use the demoman or dont download it at all.
http://files.filefront.com/rick+roll+rocketrar/;9997427;/fileinfo.html
I will post my 2nd map on this forum when its complete which shouldnt be very long at all if anyone is interested and isnt just going to shit talk.
Now im going to post a question in the help section on the mappers forum if i can find it because i am a noob still and i make noob gimmic maps for assholes to shit on. If i didnt they wouldnt have anything to do.
Now see those 'assholes' are actually the people I respect most. They taught me that the internet is a big scarey place and to become 'worthy' in the eyes of the [internet]masses you have to only submit the finest of works. I entered the internet upload scene with www.newgrounds.com doing flash animations and I was nieve and the first two things I submitted got blammed without any mercy so the world never got to comment on how I could improve (which isnt actually the point on NG but people give you their thoughts on improvement anyway)
This put me on a little bit of a downer but actually it was the best thing they could possibly have done.
If they had accepted them and got half decent scores I would have of course thought that I was half decent and the next animation I made would have been on a similar level of shittyness because I was already accepted and I now have no real reason to better myself because I'm at a level where every shit I churn out gets seen.
Instead this happened:
I was a bit upset and bruised by the whole experience of being rejected but within a few days I was working on a new animation putting 5 times the effort and before long I had another animation that blew my previous out of the water (admittedly its still not that good but it was a huge improvement) and I submitted that and it got accepted, I was over the moon, absolutely exctatic that I had been accepted and made people laugh with my animation.
Then when I started each new animation I thought "well the last one got accepted, but barely, I've got to make this one even better than that". Every one after that then got a better score than the previous and I knew I was getting better - I was being rewarded for getting better (rewarded with higher scores and a bigger sense of elation every time) so every time I wanted to get better more than anything, I made getting the 'daily first' award my top priority (out of 160 odd submitted in one day first is quite a feat)
In the end [Before I moved into mapping] I managed daily 4th.
So because those 'assholes' burnt my submissions and knocked me down I was enspired to try even harder than before and better myself, which I was able to do.
Imagine a more 'real life' situation:
You want a job, you want it so bad but you arent very good at the required skill, you go to the interview and they tell you that you just aren't good enough. but you really really want it so you find courses and practice extra hard and you go back and because you've improved so much you are now accepted and you get the job - you win
Or they could tell you you have the skills needed but they get rid of you some other way 'the position has been filled' even though you both know its because you suck at what they want. you aren't inspired to get better now, you just search for another company to apply to. And they wont have you because you dont have the skills - you fail
So you see, when everyone sugar coats things and tells the frankly shit newbies they are 'doing good' or some similar euphamism its not really an incentive to better themselves, or even to try in the first place.
This put me on a little bit of a downer but actually it was the best thing they could possibly have done.
If they had accepted them and got half decent scores I would have of course thought that I was half decent and the next animation I made would have been on a similar level of shittyness because I was already accepted and I now have no real reason to better myself because I'm at a level where every shit I churn out gets seen.
Instead this happened:
I was a bit upset and bruised by the whole experience of being rejected but within a few days I was working on a new animation putting 5 times the effort and before long I had another animation that blew my previous out of the water (admittedly its still not that good but it was a huge improvement) and I submitted that and it got accepted, I was over the moon, absolutely exctatic that I had been accepted and made people laugh with my animation.
Then when I started each new animation I thought "well the last one got accepted, but barely, I've got to make this one even better than that". Every one after that then got a better score than the previous and I knew I was getting better - I was being rewarded for getting better (rewarded with higher scores and a bigger sense of elation every time) so every time I wanted to get better more than anything, I made getting the 'daily first' award my top priority (out of 160 odd submitted in one day first is quite a feat)
In the end [Before I moved into mapping] I managed daily 4th.
So because those 'assholes' burnt my submissions and knocked me down I was enspired to try even harder than before and better myself, which I was able to do.
Imagine a more 'real life' situation:
You want a job, you want it so bad but you arent very good at the required skill, you go to the interview and they tell you that you just aren't good enough. but you really really want it so you find courses and practice extra hard and you go back and because you've improved so much you are now accepted and you get the job - you win
Or they could tell you you have the skills needed but they get rid of you some other way 'the position has been filled' even though you both know its because you suck at what they want. you aren't inspired to get better now, you just search for another company to apply to. And they wont have you because you dont have the skills - you fail
So you see, when everyone sugar coats things and tells the frankly shit newbies they are 'doing good' or some similar euphamism its not really an incentive to better themselves, or even to try in the first place.
I disagree.
In my experience you get better results with the carrot rather than the stick.
In my experience you get better results with the carrot rather than the stick.
It's as though this topic were specifically made to make me feel bad.
For one, I call the map I'm working on "My First Map" just because all the other scrapped ones I worked on never made it past a stage that I felt was an acceptable quality. Does that make it a gimmicky 2hour map even though I've worked a good few months on it?
Then there's the fact that I'm not working on a plain CTF or CP map. Rather, I've done extensive work on trying to integrate both systems into one map. Within the bounds of Hammer, but not intended by Valve. Gimmick?
Based on the definitions provided, it seems that I may very well be another one-time gimmicky mapper, right?
For one, I call the map I'm working on "My First Map" just because all the other scrapped ones I worked on never made it past a stage that I felt was an acceptable quality. Does that make it a gimmicky 2hour map even though I've worked a good few months on it?
Then there's the fact that I'm not working on a plain CTF or CP map. Rather, I've done extensive work on trying to integrate both systems into one map. Within the bounds of Hammer, but not intended by Valve. Gimmick?
Based on the definitions provided, it seems that I may very well be another one-time gimmicky mapper, right?
Personally i would put it down to laziness or complete lack of an artistic personality. Pretty much what Snipergen was saying. These people don't do their research and can't be arsed to learn beyond the basics and are too eager too try and show off. If you were bothering to learn beyond the basics you'd realise there's no point in flooding half the servers in existance with your first map.
It's a learning process and i don't think people realise exactly what they are undertaking. It's a massive project, and it's quite serious. People just arn't willing to put in the effert and so we get these gimmicks.
It's like giving a kid lego, watching him eat the instructions whilst he sticks the car chassis to the mans head. Sure it's amusing, but you're not gonna find that design on the shelves of toys 'R' us any time soon.
It's a shame servers arn't treated with the same respect. Anyone can crab hammer these days, it's not packed away on the top shelves for a relatively expensive price; anyone not serious about it can go buy some sweets instead. (Or in other words seeded in some quiet yet professionally ordered mapping community, a difficult find that would have culled the unworthy). So it's no longer a case of having a serious idea about level designing. It "just happens".
EDIT: No Cpt Raem, it wouldn't technically be your first map. If you've scrapped other versions for improvement you're going through a professional design process. It'd be your first release but not your first map. I suppose you could say.
It's a learning process and i don't think people realise exactly what they are undertaking. It's a massive project, and it's quite serious. People just arn't willing to put in the effert and so we get these gimmicks.
It's like giving a kid lego, watching him eat the instructions whilst he sticks the car chassis to the mans head. Sure it's amusing, but you're not gonna find that design on the shelves of toys 'R' us any time soon.
It's a shame servers arn't treated with the same respect. Anyone can crab hammer these days, it's not packed away on the top shelves for a relatively expensive price; anyone not serious about it can go buy some sweets instead. (Or in other words seeded in some quiet yet professionally ordered mapping community, a difficult find that would have culled the unworthy). So it's no longer a case of having a serious idea about level designing. It "just happens".
EDIT: No Cpt Raem, it wouldn't technically be your first map. If you've scrapped other versions for improvement you're going through a professional design process. It'd be your first release but not your first map. I suppose you could say.
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I'd like to add that even though I have not played rame's map and I have actually no idea what its like, for the sake of my sanity, its not a gimmick....
(I believe its got cp and ctf elements, which isnt really gimmicky, just not quite 'right')
- Jump maps = gimmick
- achievementbox = gimmick
- gamestyle that is totally different from normal tf2 (eg DM) = gimmick
- surf map(never seen one for tf2, touchwood) = gimmick
- That strage concept thread that involves teleports = gimmick
- That aeophsothimginorother map where you spawned in a room and then had to parachute down to one of two towers and the gravity was ultra low and if you fell in the water you died = gimmick
- mario kart = gimmick
- map that is differently themed (gp cp_horus) = not gimmick
- map that is unsure if its cp or ctf = non gimmick
- normal map (eg cp_castle) = non gimmick
- map that is really bad but everything else is normal (eg warpath or ctf_clash) = non gimmick
- 'my_first_map' (eg ctf_clash) = shit
ChronoTriggerFan
L420: High Member
- Feb 3, 2008
- 434
- 73
what i believe creates gimmick maps are the lack of teamwork necesarry. jump maps, mario kart, dm maps, don't really promote those aspects that make up TEAM fortress 2. hybrid game modes still promote teamwork, just in a different way
Hey all,
New to the forums here but I thought this would be a good thread to start with.
I first read this thread mostly for ideas on what to include in m'my first map' ermm, 'upcoming release'. Some good points were made but alot of the thread seems to have turned into arguments rather than suggestions.
For the record I am not against gimmicks, if someone wants to make one fine. It will only be played or hosted on servers by people who like that stuff. I have jumped on a few servers that had gimmick maps and it didn't take long for me to leave.
examples would be Mario Kart (instant headache), soccer... Basically annoying imo and not why I play TF2.
So IMO to make a good TF2 map you really need to follow conventions laid out by Valve.
And that's not hard to do. Everyhting is in place, the main thing is working on a good layout for the style of map you are making. That can be very hard. Hopefully the map I am working on will be accepted and hosted on servers.
I have made mods for other games over the years and have at least tried at least 6 different engines. I'm really digging Hammer so far and do some work in Radiant which is very similar.
I understand the point about not releasing first map, getting the hang of editor... I've actually abondoned a mouse/style CP map I was working on for awhile in favor of a 2fort style map.
I thought about this map for a few days before I started and had a good idea of the layout i was gonna make. Opened editor and started fleshing it out, figuring out dimensions, etc..
Built the entire front of a building liked it alot visually but started adding behind it and realized it was just sloppy.
Basically scrapped it after 2 long days of work and started over. Had an idea to try and it is working really well, probably the way I'll map for now on.
I started with the ground floor. I laid out all the walls so I could look from above, see all rooms/hallways, etc.. Made a box around it, went in game and ran around. When I felt like I had something workable I went in and added stairs and saved as 'ground floor'. added the 2 floor floors(1st floor ceilings) and started adding walls for floor 2. Saved as 'floor 2'. So basically every floor is going up modularly and I can run around each floor as I go and make sure there is good flow. It's alot easier to see what I'm doing from above than down inside a mess of terrain.
Hopefully close enough to 2fort it will be fun to play but I'm also trying to make it different enough that people don't think '2fort'.
I feel it is best to follow Valves conventions because it is TF2, most people who play it want to play TF2, it can only make your map more well accepted if you do. Mainly this is just sticking to gameplay styles laid out already. I think I played 'PL_Mine' before the new update was released. I thought it was cool gameplay so it's cool to see an official map of that style released. This is a rare occassion where a new style can be made and accepted.
I'm not a fan of DM maps because I feel they are basically pointless.
So that really leaves visual styles to mess with. I'm really intruiged by that Egypt map and am going to DL it when I get a chance. The screens look awesome. This is the perfect example (from screens) to me of how to make a custom map. Not trying to reinvent the game, just giving us somewhere new and cool to play. This is pretty much and endless road too, so many places a map could be built. While alot of the custom maps I have played can be fun alot of them seem to lack visual interest or creativity (yeah, I know I'm asking for my map to be flamed...)
But seriously, I think that is where most focus on a map should be for it to be well accepted.
* Good solid TF2 gameplay
* Well thought out layout
* Unique/different/interesting location
* follows TF2 standards (Make red look like Valve red/ make blu look like valve blu) I make that last point not because I want everything to look like the Well or Dustbowl but because the color and building design gives easy and clear visual clues in a fast paced game on where to go.
Umm, guess that's all I've got to add...
New to the forums here but I thought this would be a good thread to start with.
I first read this thread mostly for ideas on what to include in m'my first map' ermm, 'upcoming release'. Some good points were made but alot of the thread seems to have turned into arguments rather than suggestions.
For the record I am not against gimmicks, if someone wants to make one fine. It will only be played or hosted on servers by people who like that stuff. I have jumped on a few servers that had gimmick maps and it didn't take long for me to leave.
examples would be Mario Kart (instant headache), soccer... Basically annoying imo and not why I play TF2.
So IMO to make a good TF2 map you really need to follow conventions laid out by Valve.
And that's not hard to do. Everyhting is in place, the main thing is working on a good layout for the style of map you are making. That can be very hard. Hopefully the map I am working on will be accepted and hosted on servers.
I have made mods for other games over the years and have at least tried at least 6 different engines. I'm really digging Hammer so far and do some work in Radiant which is very similar.
I understand the point about not releasing first map, getting the hang of editor... I've actually abondoned a mouse/style CP map I was working on for awhile in favor of a 2fort style map.
I thought about this map for a few days before I started and had a good idea of the layout i was gonna make. Opened editor and started fleshing it out, figuring out dimensions, etc..
Built the entire front of a building liked it alot visually but started adding behind it and realized it was just sloppy.
Basically scrapped it after 2 long days of work and started over. Had an idea to try and it is working really well, probably the way I'll map for now on.
I started with the ground floor. I laid out all the walls so I could look from above, see all rooms/hallways, etc.. Made a box around it, went in game and ran around. When I felt like I had something workable I went in and added stairs and saved as 'ground floor'. added the 2 floor floors(1st floor ceilings) and started adding walls for floor 2. Saved as 'floor 2'. So basically every floor is going up modularly and I can run around each floor as I go and make sure there is good flow. It's alot easier to see what I'm doing from above than down inside a mess of terrain.
Hopefully close enough to 2fort it will be fun to play but I'm also trying to make it different enough that people don't think '2fort'.
I feel it is best to follow Valves conventions because it is TF2, most people who play it want to play TF2, it can only make your map more well accepted if you do. Mainly this is just sticking to gameplay styles laid out already. I think I played 'PL_Mine' before the new update was released. I thought it was cool gameplay so it's cool to see an official map of that style released. This is a rare occassion where a new style can be made and accepted.
I'm not a fan of DM maps because I feel they are basically pointless.
So that really leaves visual styles to mess with. I'm really intruiged by that Egypt map and am going to DL it when I get a chance. The screens look awesome. This is the perfect example (from screens) to me of how to make a custom map. Not trying to reinvent the game, just giving us somewhere new and cool to play. This is pretty much and endless road too, so many places a map could be built. While alot of the custom maps I have played can be fun alot of them seem to lack visual interest or creativity (yeah, I know I'm asking for my map to be flamed...)
But seriously, I think that is where most focus on a map should be for it to be well accepted.
* Good solid TF2 gameplay
* Well thought out layout
* Unique/different/interesting location
* follows TF2 standards (Make red look like Valve red/ make blu look like valve blu) I make that last point not because I want everything to look like the Well or Dustbowl but because the color and building design gives easy and clear visual clues in a fast paced game on where to go.
Umm, guess that's all I've got to add...
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Welcome to the board.
As for the Valve Team matching, colour is probably a good idea, but structural integrity is dependent on the map as well, not every map is like the Valve maps, able to easily show a recurring theme of the 2 teams while still staying in bounds of the map's theme.
As for Youme, spell my name right.
Psst, Vampire.
As for the Valve Team matching, colour is probably a good idea, but structural integrity is dependent on the map as well, not every map is like the Valve maps, able to easily show a recurring theme of the 2 teams while still staying in bounds of the map's theme.
As for Youme, spell my name right.
Psst, Vampire.
- Nov 12, 2007
- 1,128
- 746
Hydro, a Valve map, is actually a good example of this, as only two areas are specifically "owned" by the two teams. Everything else is relatively team-neutral, but still follows the general look and feel of the TF2 architecture and style.
Spike
L10: Glamorous Member
- Feb 13, 2008
- 716
- 82
I have never released a map, my first map was a shit and I didn't upload it, it was an aim_ for CS 1.6, then I've made lots and lots of map attempts like, full detailed and big maps that I never compiled. And I'm finally here, doing my first playable map for TF2.
I could have done lots of little maps that people would have played but I just don't want, I take it more like a personal work rathen than "OMG I WANNA MAKE A QUICK MAP SO PEOPLE WILL PLAY IT EVEN IF IS JUST 2 BRUSHES"
P.S. Mario Kart is gimmick but I think it is well done and is funny to play it.
I could have done lots of little maps that people would have played but I just don't want, I take it more like a personal work rathen than "OMG I WANNA MAKE A QUICK MAP SO PEOPLE WILL PLAY IT EVEN IF IS JUST 2 BRUSHES"
P.S. Mario Kart is gimmick but I think it is well done and is funny to play it.
Colt Seavers
L6: Sharp Member
- Dec 30, 2007
- 288
- 82
I have a simple approach to what maps make it into the maplist on the Playground Servers. The basic criteria would be:
1) If they offer an element of fun, for a specific occasion or for regular teamplay fragging.
2) If they usually result in good balanced gameplay where its as fun to attack as defend.
3) If they positively encourage teamplay and balanced player classes.
4) If they look purdy.
5) Server side restricts are a pain in the rear - avoid maps with a need for them - ie sniper fests.
Only if they fulfill one of the first 3 criteria do they make it on the maplist. If they tick all boxes, they are usually on a fast track to the server map rotation....for a week at least, to give them a propper try.
None of the above criteria are concerned with 'Gimmicks' - which I'm not purist about. If your imagination prompts you to try a 'Gimmick' map, do it. However, be realistic about what you'll acheive. Do you want your map played for a quick blast on fun nights, or do you want it to have a reputation for epic teamplay battles.
Billiards is a good example - I always enjoy a quick blast on it - especially after 2 hours playing a couple of Epic CP battles. It has it's place on our server for that purpose. As do Melee Ringking and MeleeBarn. Rugby was another, though i'd put that in it's own catagory because in my opinion it is a superb effort and we've had hours of fun with amazingly exciting games.
When a new mapper asks me for advice on vent, I always say keep it simple for your first map. That doesnt mean a simple layout - it means that Gameplay is all and Layout is paramount. We've played hours and hours of Bloodstained when it was untextured in alpha/beta. The games were still EPIC. The only thing that texturing has done is bring the map up to valve standards.....looks wise. It already was, gameplay wise. The looks are important but they are just the paint. If you live in a shed, you live in a shed, doesn't matter how you decorate it. Same with a map.
So, I wouldn't recommend anyone deviate from the valve gamemodes in their first map.....simply because if they stick to what works and make their own version, they are far more likely to receive a positive response from other players, which in turn will give them the confidence to develop their mapping skills. This will mean much more test time for the map on servers, much more of a following developing for the map, and much more genuine and useful feedback.
When it comes to making a judgement on whether gimmick is good or bad - I don't - I just apply the same criteria as I would to any map.
Finally, the reason I have always discourage in game feedback and encouraged forum based feedback......Mappers have feelings for one - and i'd rather they enjoyed a game on their map rather than had people sling glib comments at them after only 5 minutes playing it. For a map to be tested properly, there has to be a server full of willing enthusiastic players. Players who appreciate the effort maps go to and understand that they are privilaged to be playing a map that they could shape the development of for the good. Players who will play it repeatedly, and hold their critique until they understand the map. The game day is good to have a quick fault test and is designed to be rough and ready - with 30 minutes per map - so its bound to produce alot of 'this is wrong' comments in game. Hopefully the mapper is thick skinned.
Once you've made your first very playable, stock textured, map. Then is the time to introduce new skills....modelling/texturing/gamemode stuff, as only then will you have the basic skills required to implement them properly.
I think I may have just jibbered.....hmm. need to sleep more :closedeyes:
1) If they offer an element of fun, for a specific occasion or for regular teamplay fragging.
2) If they usually result in good balanced gameplay where its as fun to attack as defend.
3) If they positively encourage teamplay and balanced player classes.
4) If they look purdy.
5) Server side restricts are a pain in the rear - avoid maps with a need for them - ie sniper fests.
Only if they fulfill one of the first 3 criteria do they make it on the maplist. If they tick all boxes, they are usually on a fast track to the server map rotation....for a week at least, to give them a propper try.
None of the above criteria are concerned with 'Gimmicks' - which I'm not purist about. If your imagination prompts you to try a 'Gimmick' map, do it. However, be realistic about what you'll acheive. Do you want your map played for a quick blast on fun nights, or do you want it to have a reputation for epic teamplay battles.
Billiards is a good example - I always enjoy a quick blast on it - especially after 2 hours playing a couple of Epic CP battles. It has it's place on our server for that purpose. As do Melee Ringking and MeleeBarn. Rugby was another, though i'd put that in it's own catagory because in my opinion it is a superb effort and we've had hours of fun with amazingly exciting games.
When a new mapper asks me for advice on vent, I always say keep it simple for your first map. That doesnt mean a simple layout - it means that Gameplay is all and Layout is paramount. We've played hours and hours of Bloodstained when it was untextured in alpha/beta. The games were still EPIC. The only thing that texturing has done is bring the map up to valve standards.....looks wise. It already was, gameplay wise. The looks are important but they are just the paint. If you live in a shed, you live in a shed, doesn't matter how you decorate it. Same with a map.
So, I wouldn't recommend anyone deviate from the valve gamemodes in their first map.....simply because if they stick to what works and make their own version, they are far more likely to receive a positive response from other players, which in turn will give them the confidence to develop their mapping skills. This will mean much more test time for the map on servers, much more of a following developing for the map, and much more genuine and useful feedback.
When it comes to making a judgement on whether gimmick is good or bad - I don't - I just apply the same criteria as I would to any map.
Finally, the reason I have always discourage in game feedback and encouraged forum based feedback......Mappers have feelings for one - and i'd rather they enjoyed a game on their map rather than had people sling glib comments at them after only 5 minutes playing it. For a map to be tested properly, there has to be a server full of willing enthusiastic players. Players who appreciate the effort maps go to and understand that they are privilaged to be playing a map that they could shape the development of for the good. Players who will play it repeatedly, and hold their critique until they understand the map. The game day is good to have a quick fault test and is designed to be rough and ready - with 30 minutes per map - so its bound to produce alot of 'this is wrong' comments in game. Hopefully the mapper is thick skinned.
Once you've made your first very playable, stock textured, map. Then is the time to introduce new skills....modelling/texturing/gamemode stuff, as only then will you have the basic skills required to implement them properly.
I think I may have just jibbered.....hmm. need to sleep more :closedeyes:
Arhurt
L6: Sharp Member
- May 7, 2008
- 315
- 140
Well ctf_aerospace is my first map and I plan to release it. Of course I set with ctf, wich is easy to do, and symmetrical bases, even easier. The thing is that if you are going to release your first map you HAVE to take each step of the way very slowly and be willing to trhow away hours of work because you did something wrong.
I think you need to understand that noobie mappers KNOW they are shit at it and have NO reason to think they are good at it in the first place. They release stuff they have made because people can give pointers and tips as to what they can use tool wise and design whise to make it better.
They dont need a cockbag telling them their map is shit and it would never get on my server BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW THAT.
They want tips like, hey, it would look much better if you did blah with the lights, or, you need to work with the scale of your map as its abit too big and would look much better if you made maps to scale in the future. Try not to strech the textures because they look bad compared to if you didn't, or, maps look bad with big blocks of the same texture on a big/long brush so try and break it up with another design or break the line of sight to it with props to draw the attention away.
You lose nothing by giving small tips and help to noobie mappers and tbh by doing so you are helping the entire community because that mapper may one day release a damn good map. But if you cock block him early on he may just think f*** it.
They dont need a cockbag telling them their map is shit and it would never get on my server BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW THAT.
They want tips like, hey, it would look much better if you did blah with the lights, or, you need to work with the scale of your map as its abit too big and would look much better if you made maps to scale in the future. Try not to strech the textures because they look bad compared to if you didn't, or, maps look bad with big blocks of the same texture on a big/long brush so try and break it up with another design or break the line of sight to it with props to draw the attention away.
You lose nothing by giving small tips and help to noobie mappers and tbh by doing so you are helping the entire community because that mapper may one day release a damn good map. But if you cock block him early on he may just think f*** it.