Move Those Maps Up!

Jan 20, 2010
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Seriously, not being familiar with many community maps at all, even being here over half a year, I feel that those two maps fit TF2 more so than a lot of maps mentioned in this thread so far. When I see those screenshots in my head those look like something out of the TF2 universe.


A lot of maps that are pumped out of this community are extremely noisy with the detailing, weather it be models or the actual layout of map map is visually strange. A path through this route may help gameplay but now you have to put a tunnel or building there so it has somewhere to 'go'.

Map making is more complicated than simply 'good layout + good detailing = good map', everything literally has to fit together so tightly you can't budge the thing open at all. It's hit and miss, I guess.

This is how I think of it: As mappers, we try to innovate when creating something. I think, primarily, this is because we want to grab people's attention so they want to play it. A lot of well loved maps have tried new things that may or may not work in TF2. It may also be that they don't look like they fit in TF2 because you're not used to that style being in the game.

I feel like saying that maps need to look similar or exactly the same as maps that already exist is stifling the wonderful amount of creativity that mappers have.
 

LeSwordfish

semi-trained quasi-professional
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Aug 8, 2010
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I like that valve are doing maps, but I can't help but feel this is throwing the expected date for a map workshop back, isn't it? Surely if a map workshop was coming, it would come WITH the new custom maps, wouldn't it?

Unless there's someone else biting their tongue and we're getting another map update in a few weeks.
 

Sergis

L666: ])oo]v[
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Jul 22, 2009
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I'm just going to briefly voice my opinion on this and attempt to keep it concise.

I very much appreciate the fact that Valve is trying to prod us into creating higher quality maps. But going about it this way I do not think is the most productive. If they would like to see higher quality maps from us, then I know we would all appreciate it if they would be a bit more vocal and forthright about what they expect. We get little snippets here and there and we can guess from their own maps and what they've already officialized, but we'll never really know for sure.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it would be nice if Valve was a bit more transparent about this process. Giving us a hint that boils down to "do better than this map" is not particularly helpful.

i kinda get the feel that getting close enough to what valve wants by yourself is part of the selection process :D

besides if they set out concise guidelines "we want this, this and this", rest in peace sweet creativity and make way for mapping for valve

anyway, congrats to scorpio, mirin and jelly
 

Crash

func_nerd
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Mar 1, 2010
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Being creative within the confines of what they are looking for would be the challenge. They would get more maps they want and we would have more motivation to create in our community.

That said, just what they've shown us gives me a pretty clear idea of what they are looking for now, so I'll probably adjust my mapping accordingly.
 

YM

LVL100 YM
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Dec 5, 2007
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I like that valve are doing maps, but I can't help but feel this is throwing the expected date for a map workshop back, isn't it? Surely if a map workshop was coming, it would come WITH the new custom maps, wouldn't it?

Unless there's someone else biting their tongue and we're getting another map update in a few weeks.

Nah Brah, why would they choose two maps to release with the workshop? The workshop will come when they have nothing in mind and then after a few months the pick of the workshop will arrive.
 

hooky

L2: Junior Member
Aug 1, 2012
68
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I don't think Valve is done with update reveals here.

Make it better than these.
This quote seems like a challenge. A challenge made easier for Valve to judge with a map workshop.
 

wareya

L420: High Member
Jun 17, 2012
493
191
Uh, as far as advice goes I think the important parts of that post are actually there.

"let's face it: It's never fun to be gunned down from above and behind."
"[...]players can once again feel like they understand threats and the dangers presented in combat spaces."
"These maps were selected by the TF2 team in part for their straightforward and intuitive layouts, and in part because they were a hell of a lot of fun to play. These CP maps were designed with little visual noise, were easy to understand and fun to navigate through."
 

Trotim

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Jul 14, 2009
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You know, I personally have never been a fan of cp_process.

I have however always secretly loved cp_standin and am happy to see Valve is willing to finally put in another map that plays significantly differently from any other in the pool

Gratz

PS friendly reminder it'll take players like a month to understand what to do on cp_standin so just ignore all initial feedback

edit: definitely not trying to say Process is bad or that I disagree with Valve

I just wanted to offset all the "it won't work on pubs/it didn't work in comp so it must be bad" and emphasize Standin is really good too :)
 
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Jan 20, 2010
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Be more simplistic and straightforward, especially visually. Don't be buggy.

See, I kind of took that as more of a "that's why we picked THIS map." I'm not sure if they're saying that's what they want with all maps.

Can't really know for sure, though.
 
Aug 23, 2008
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Okay, seeing as how there were some questions/comments/critiques in this thread, figured I would make a response. Have to say, starting out, I'm kind of disappointed with some of the comments on display (you can probably figure out which ones), but w/e, water under the bridge, etc etc.

First off, thanks to everybody. Congrats are super appreciated. Its incredibly gratifying to have my years and years of crafting maps recognized, and obviously its great to have people excited for me (I know I am). Mapping in obscurity is obviously no fun, so yah, good times.

Here comes the big one. Obviously, not everyone is going to be super excited about my maps being chosen. People are going to have their own personal favorites, and feel somewhat betrayed when they don't get picked. And, they might even have grounds and criteria by which they judge my maps and find them lacking.

Whatever. It isn't up to you. You aren't Valve, you don't choose the maps they purchase, and your feedback on what does or doesn't work accounts for very little. That, to me, seems like one of the fundamental problems with this community as a whole. While I definitely appreciate the work of the administrative crew (Ravidge and DRP in particular) at the end of the day TF2Maps.net is NOT the culmination of TF2 mapping, no matter how much some members might like to imagine that it is. It is, generally speaking, a very small group of regulars who dedicate quite a bit of time to pointless bickering and self-congratulation.

The number of times I've seen people on here critique maps that actually have user bases, that have significant and dedicated followings, is just outrageous. Lakeside gets purchased, people trash it for months, despite the fact that it has a very, very solid art style, a simple and immediately accessible goal and layout, and sees play in Highlander (which is growing all the time).

Personally, while I've derived a great deal from some of the (older) tutorials, in the recent past I feel as though my maps have gained very little from TF2Maps.net. You'll note, that most of my map threads haven't been significantly updated by me in years, that I prefer to spend what time I have monitoring the reception of them in other venues.

The community is very useful for figuring out early mapping techniques, but beyond that most of the mappers I respect have derived much of their mapping techniques from following their own path, and finding groups of like minded individuals to support them. 3dnj doesn't wait around for your support or feedback, he goes out and makes amazingly beautiful TF2 and CS:GO maps on his own. Fishbus didn't solicit feedback here on steel, instead he makes an amazing map and then goes and gets a job with splash damage.

If you feel that Lakeside, Koth_king or w/e other map isn't quite up to your VAST AND AMAZING STANDARDS, then you may be deluding yourself about what quality is.

As far as Valve providing you with direct and immediate feedback on what they want to purchase: look, that's not how mapping works. You don't know what you want to purchase until it exists and is playable. If Valve knew what they were looking to purchase from mappers, then we wouldn't really be surprised or excited by anything that a mapper made. It would just be like "Yup, thats a map that fits our criteria, guess I'll buy that". Don't expect some formula handed down from above, game companies expect level designers to be able to come up with workable, playable, amazing level designs on their own. You aren't coloring in the lines, you are drawing from scratch and trying to wow people with your own take on design.

If you want a map to be made official there is only two methods to increase the likelihood of that happening. 1) Make the best maps possible, 2) Learn from your mistakes. What exactly "the best map" is is not known or knowable until you make it, and if you are so stuck in your ways, moaning over your hours and hours of mapping leading to nothing, or demanding that your personal favorite map get included (despite the fact that its been in a complete state for many years with very little critical reception), you'll be stuck in the same spot forever. Make maps, figure out if they are a success or failure, and then move on to the next project. Anyone can do this, you don't need Valve holding your hand to know whether or not something is successful.

Obviously, this post is a bit grumpy, and probably overly negative about TF2Maps role in mapping, but I do think its important to take mapping as both a collaborative work AND a solitary one. Yes, you need feedback, playtests and outside eyes to evaluate your maps. But at the same time you need to accept that much of what makes a map good is up to you, and making a product that Valve (or any game company, really) wants to purchase or hire based off of is ultimately down to you create. Accepting certain community members word as gospel, and creating an incredibly cliquish circle that constantly criticizes other peoples mapping decisions is not, IMO, a particularly useful path towards being a viable level designer.

P.S. For those wondering, here is a summary of the emails between me and Valve. None of this is word for word, just a quick boiling down of how the map went from my hard drive to Valve.

V: Yo, we would like to acquire process and standin.
Me: Cool! Here is a list of everyone involved!
V: Is this your current address?
Me: Yes.
V: Okay, here is a contract, please sign and scan back a copy to me. Also, we will need any vmf's and textures associated with the map.
Me: Hey, do you have a timeline? I would like to make some changes to the maps before they are put in the game. Would that be okay?
V: We have already playtested the maps as they are currently publicly available, if the changes are too extreme we might have to retest, and we may not want to purchase them.
Me: Okay, I'm only planning slight visual changes. (send the updated versions on sunday)
V: Hey can you fill out this form so we can wire you the money?
Me: YES!!! I CAN DO THAT!!

As you can see, no changes were recomended, demanded or solicited. In fact, the possibility of changes kind of turned them off a bit.
 

Freyja

aa
Jul 31, 2009
2,994
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tldr: People are shit, selfish and self-entitled pricks and TF2M is made out of people.
Yeah, I agree 100% :)

I think we all agree here that having our map bought by valve is our dream for mapping. To have our hobby verified in such a way is amazing!

So why are we not giving our undivided congratulations to Scorpio? He worked hard for this, and it finally payed off. Are we all so selfish that we can't be happy for him? So what if you don't like his maps, you know what? I hate 2fort too. But it's still an incredibly integral part of the game.

Valve is the final authority here. Even if you don't agree with their choice, they made their choice and Scorpio has got an amazing honor. We should be congratulating him for that, not trying to devalue it.
 
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Jan 20, 2010
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Hey there Scorpio,

First of all: super congrats on being included. Your maps are definitely of a high quality so you deserve it. I will admit that they aren't my cup of tea, but that really has no baring on anything I might say here.

I really hope that my comments so far haven't come off badly to you. If that have, I apologize.

I will still stand by my statement that I really thing that the TF2 Mapping community would really benefit from Valve involving themselves a bit more in our community. I definitely don't want guidelines from them as, yes, I agree that really won't serve any purpose. I do, however, think they could pop in occasionally and give feedback on maps they perhaps see potential in or maybe even themselves create a tutorial or two about some level design principals.

I don't think this is something we deserve or anything, by the way. I really don't think we're entitled to them as a community. But if Valve really wanted to breath some new life into the mapping community and tf2maps in particular, that would definitely do it.

Besides that, you make some good points and I definitely agree on a fair amount of the points.

Edit: Also, by the way, surfing through this thread, a majority of the people did congratulate Scorpio. I don't think that's really the problem here. Some of us may or may not be a fan of the maps, but I know at least for myself I'm still happy for him and just for mapping in general. It's been a significant time since the last community map was added.

Edit 2: Oh, also, thanks for the community weapon! Haha! You used my concrete recolors in process and I got a community weapon for them, so that's awesome. :)
 
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LeSwordfish

semi-trained quasi-professional
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Aug 8, 2010
4,102
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I agree with most things that Scorpio said, but i'd like to quibble on one point.

Personally, while I've derived a great deal from some of the (older) tutorials, in the recent past I feel as though my maps have gained very little from TF2Maps.net. You'll note, that most of my map threads haven't been significantly updated by me in years, that I prefer to spend what time I have monitoring the reception of them in other venues.

Surely at least part of this is that you are getting better? Beyond a certain level there's very little anyone else can do to help with your map.
 

Sergis

L666: ])oo]v[
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Jul 22, 2009
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