Move Those Maps Up!

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by tf2.com, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. tf2.com

    tf2.com L11: Posh Member

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    If you'd rather not get spoiled on whether or not there's an update coming soon, you'd better not read the rest of this sentence, and you also might want to skip directly to the last paragraph of this post. Then also don't read it, because SPOILER: This post is allllllll about an upcoming update.


    First off: this update is going to have a list of patch notes longer than a stalemate on Hydro. Rather than just dropping all of that in your lap with no explanation, we figured we'd spend a few blog posts taking you through some of the soon-to-be-released update content, so you'd get an idea of the process behind some of the changes and additions we're making. Let’s start with maps.


    TF2 has been evolving since the day we released it back in 2007. Unfortunately, as players' tactics and abilities have grown, so have the bugs and exploits in some of the maps. For example, since Badwater shipped in The Heavy Update, TF2 has added more than 140 weapons to the game, some of which introduced new capabilities: sentry jumping, rocket jumping with no health cost, the ability to pick up and move your buildings. All of these are just a fraction of the many ways players can now turn maps like Badwater upside down.


    [​IMG]

    It didn't take long before clever players discovered how to use sentry jumping to build on roofs, Jumpers to move quickly behind enemy lines and spawn camp, and sneakily place buildings inside of their spawns. While we love players coming up with new and inventive ways to win, let's face it: It's never fun to be gunned down from above and behind.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And Badwater is just one of the maps with fixes in this update. In fact, the majority of maps in TF2 have gone through the same process. By eliminating these exploits and bugs, players can once again feel like they understand threats and the dangers presented in combat spaces.


    Secondly: Sure, it’s great to fix the old maps, but we’re also adding two NEW community-created maps by Ian Cuslidge that, and here's another spoiler warning, are fricking awesome. Introducing two all-new Capture Point maps: Process and Standin. Beyond a great polish, both of these maps offer unique and exciting gameplay; Process with its five streamlined Capture Points and Standin with its triple Cap Point free-for-all.


    [​IMG]
    cp_process

    [​IMG]
    cp_process

    These maps were selected by the TF2 team in part for their straightforward and intuitive layouts, and in part because they were a hell of a lot of fun to play. These CP maps were designed with little visual noise, were easy to understand and fun to navigate through. If you're a community map maker and want to see us ship your map, here's another spoiler on how to do that: Make it better than these.


    [​IMG]
    cp_standin

    [​IMG]
    cp_standin



    Source: TF2.com
     
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  2. PMAvers

    PMAvers L6: Sharp Member

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    Woo! New maps!

    Woo! Fixing old maps!

    Woo! Big update!

    Woo!
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  3. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Can't help but wonder if this long list of patch notes is owed partly to their GitHub... but I honestly don't recall it being used to report a lot of map exploits. The only one I've seen lately is the playerclip gap in ctf_well where you can stickyjump over the fence somewhere.
     
  4. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    Lesson #1 in mapping, one we've gone over many times here, but I find it interesting they are pointing it out themselves (again?) because it seems to come up a lot. or at least it did when I still played maps around here :(
     
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  5. RaVaGe

    aa RaVaGe

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    Where's is tc_strata ? WHERE IS STRATA ???? Nah I don't get it, they've been really really nitpicks past the years with the custom maps, and they are officializing those two 'maps' which cruelly lacks of polishing and real innovation with the gameplay, especially process. Anyway congratz to the mappers.
     
  6. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Will be honest, I still have trouble with this, but partially because I like to try and make intricate, unique gameplay zones easy to understand and follow.

    So, eh.
     
  7. Leminnes

    aa Leminnes

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    Hmm, okay... I'll try, I guess? If I want to know if my maps are better than these should I ship them via fed-ex to some processing plant?

    I'm pretty excited we got a couple more community maps. Always happy to see those added, especially when it happens so infrequently.
     
  8. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    You seem to be Strata's biggest (and only?) fan.

    I don't feel like strata holds up to Valve's standards at the moment and I'm not sure it ever will.

    The dinos may be finished one day, but even on that day, it'll still just be a TC with only minor improvements from Hydro's problems.

    But at least it doesn't have those god awful diagonal stages that Hydro has!
     
  9. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    Harsh. Just to be clear here, scorpio uprising made both these maps and i for one think they're both really good maps. I know for a fact that he put a lot of work into both of these over a long period. Dealing with both pub and competitive feeback and playtesting a lot. Gameplay wise, these two maps are probably more polished (or on par) than anything you care to name.

    You should lower your expectations if you're not satisfied with custom maps of this quality, really.
     
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  10. RaVaGe

    aa RaVaGe

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    Dude, I mean just look at the detail of those maps, I mean it's ok not more, I didn't said it was bad, but past the year, we got a lot of better maps with more valuable work wich didn't had any rewarding, like premuda/haarp/casworks/Zinkenite/Tidal/Glacier/Dusk/Furnace Creek/...

    I didn't wanted to bitch on the work of his maps, those are goods maps, sure, but why those deserve to get official and not the one that I cited above ?

    So yeah to my eyes, those doesn't deserve to get official seeing how they have been nitpick past the years, but that's a really good thing for the community and a good reward for the mapper, and i'm really happy for him ;)
     
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  11. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    barf.
     
  12. wareya

    wareya L7: Fancy Member

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    heavy detailing is not necessarily a good thing, nor does it imply high polish
    valve seems pretty content with having maps that don't have a lot of detail in them, just compare swiftwater to gorge for what I mean when I'm talking about detail and polish
    they also pretty plainly asked for more intuitively laid out maps, and focusing too much on detail may very well get in the way of that in unskilled hands (people who don't balance noisy details towards non-focal areas for example)
     
  13. The Asylum

    aa The Asylum

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    If they'll make an awful mess like Junction an official map, they'll make anything an official map.

    So any idea when we can expect this update to hit?
     
  14. theharribokid

    aa theharribokid

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    In the next week Asylum.

    Was expecting to come in here and see a shitstorm. I'm glad it wasn't the case.

    I wonder how much on the map bugs are taken care of tbh. Hopefully they'll continue to take feedback on them for the next short period so we can catch anything they've missed.

    And congrats to Scorpio. I don't personally have much fun on the maps in pubs but appreciate the work he's put into these and time spent doing it. Seems like only maps which take consideration of comp are going to get taken seriously by Valve judging by their recent track record.

    Would like to hear how the story of this from Scorpio if he would share, as in how they contacted him, what they said, did they give feedback, how much they paid for them if he willing to say.
     
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  15. Rexy

    aa Rexy The Kwisatz Haderach

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    Almost 6(?) years later, Valve reveals what they WANT in a shippable map. /shrug.

    I will continue to art things as good as I possibly can; the community has dictated already a lot of what the tf2 visual content is--and how does all the tf2 item/hat visual clutter help the gameplay? It's a case of 'say one thing and mean another', if you ask me.

    Glad at least they are buying maps again. I was afraid they had given up and were just sitting on the cash from micro-transactions.

    Hopefully this will revitalize tf2 mapping again, it's been struggling for a while, no?

    Also, congrats to scorpio, way to go dude!
     
  16. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    Who knows? There's probably a lot of 'reasons' that we rarely get to hear.
    In the end it might just come down to what the valve guys found fun at the time of playing. Other times it might be concerns over optimization or they simply dislike a gamemode variant or environment theme. Who the hell knows.

    One map that you mentioned Glacier, got a valve response right here: http://forums.tf2maps.net/showpost.php?p=153838&postcount=298
    They talk about the theme, how realistic/believable it is, the complex pathing and finally they proceed to shit all over the idea behind gpit style maps. So there's that.

    My point is, these maps added are good, have been created with a lot of effort by a member of our community and one map even spawned from a competition we hosted. I think they did good in picking these maps.

    As a side note, look how happy we were on this site when the first map even slightly associated with tf2maps.net map was added to the game: http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=5418
     
  17. theharribokid

    aa theharribokid

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    I find it quite ironic that they talk bad about dividing a team up between points and have now taken one on as official which has 3 cps open to attack/defend at once which i'd think would only exacerbate that situation. Very probably not the same people/TF2 team in both situations but still, glad to see that even Valve don't know what they want from a map.
     
  18. PMAvers

    PMAvers L6: Sharp Member

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    I wonder if it'd be possible to do a gpit-style map where after both A and B are captured, the attackers get a forward spawn to assault C from instead of having to walk from the back every time.

    Respawn times would be tweaked to compensate, though. Slightly worried that the attackers that died on the assault on the last captured point would just start spawning at the new room and wouldn't give the defenders a chance to actually set up a defense.
     
  19. Leminnes

    aa Leminnes

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    I'm just going to briefly voice my opinion on this and attempt to keep it concise.

    I very much appreciate the fact that Valve is trying to prod us into creating higher quality maps. But going about it this way I do not think is the most productive. If they would like to see higher quality maps from us, then I know we would all appreciate it if they would be a bit more vocal and forthright about what they expect. We get little snippets here and there and we can guess from their own maps and what they've already officialized, but we'll never really know for sure.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, it would be nice if Valve was a bit more transparent about this process. Giving us a hint that boils down to "do better than this map" is not particularly helpful.
     
  20. Fish 2.0

    Fish 2.0 L6: Sharp Member

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    [​IMG]


    Seriously, not being familiar with many community maps at all, even being here over half a year, I feel that those two maps fit TF2 more so than a lot of maps mentioned in this thread so far. When I see those screenshots in my head those look like something out of the TF2 universe.


    A lot of maps that are pumped out of this community are extremely noisy with the detailing, weather it be models or the actual layout of map map is visually strange. A path through this route may help gameplay but now you have to put a tunnel or building there so it has somewhere to 'go'.

    Map making is more complicated than simply 'good layout + good detailing = good map', everything literally has to fit together so tightly you can't budge the thing open at all. It's hit and miss, I guess.


    EDIT: HEY HEY IM WRONG

    WTF VALVE
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013