- Thread starter Hanz
- Start date
Bump. This was really my only complaint about the map. It's especially jarring near the blue textures of BLU spawn.
- Jan 18, 2009
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I am also wondering what to do for the setup part in stage 2. If I put respawnroomvisualizers so RED can't get in, BLU can just build teleporters there without RED being able to destroy them. :/ And if I nobuild that part, RED can't build teleporters there when you're playing in stage 1. D:
honeymustard
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- Oct 26, 2009
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- Jul 22, 2009
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i think he wants to have it the other way around - killed for R1, then alive for R2
in which case we still have a problem
The number of exits is exactly the problem. With so many entrances, like 4 + doorways that allow you to switch between exit allows spies and pyro's to wreak havoc in what should be a relatively safe area where BLU can regroup.
If you look at dustbowl this is less of an issue because there's a single choke point beyond the gate exits which makes it almost impossible for close quarter classes to make it through. If you make it through you are rewarded with the potential for massive sabotage. Otherwise, BLU has the chance to push up in relative coordination if they can muster up enough well executed ubers.
Hanz needs to throw visualisers either at the front door (drastic and not ideal, but it works) or at the inner doors. So BLU can at least exit their spawnroom and not get flanked by spies in what should be a safe area. IE the little courtyard. That way RED can advance on the doors and not get flakked from within when trying to defend at the gate exits.
I also think the big metal door serves little purpose (besides aesthetics because of the driveway) if BLU can access that room from the sides. If it is removed there's also the potential for significant performance benefits.
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- Jul 22, 2009
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I meant exits out of the spawnroom itself as there is only one, not out of the whole setup area.
edit: something like this
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/cp_mojave_b10000.jpg
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Increasing the number of exits out of the spawn wont remedy the problem that exists else-where in the map. The issue is the number and spacing of the gate exits. You might be able to partially balance or disguise this issue by providing another spawn room exit, but it doesn't directly tackle the issue at hand: That RED dominate the gate exits.
EDIT: I'd also be inclined to say that second spawn exits don't tackle the immediate problem because Valve have never seen it neccasery. Look at dustbowl or goldrush. Each forward BLU spawn has 1 spawn exit with an area that is easily controlled by BLU. In Hanz's map this area is not easily controlled by BLU and this cannot be remedied properly by increasing the spawn room exits. BLU need better map control outside of their spawn.
EDIT: I'd also be inclined to say that second spawn exits don't tackle the immediate problem because Valve have never seen it neccasery. Look at dustbowl or goldrush. Each forward BLU spawn has 1 spawn exit with an area that is easily controlled by BLU. In Hanz's map this area is not easily controlled by BLU and this cannot be remedied properly by increasing the spawn room exits. BLU need better map control outside of their spawn.
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- Jul 22, 2009
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the only reason i suggested more spawnexits was to not have a single campable exit. as for mapcontrol, the approaches do look wider than in gold/bowl, but they work both ways, making it easier to push out as well unlike in the two maps with the spammiest reputation. since blu will have control over that area during setup, they only need not to lose it and i believe that can be achieved easily with proper spawntimes, making it so that reds on point can defend, but should they decide to run into setup area, they'd be overwhelmed.
if the area still proves to be uncontrollable, another thing that can be tried is having a second floor with a balcony overlooking that area, increasing its controllability. in general, i'd much rather see fix by layout adjustment than a fix by arbitrary teamwalls
if the area still proves to be uncontrollable, another thing that can be tried is having a second floor with a balcony overlooking that area, increasing its controllability. in general, i'd much rather see fix by layout adjustment than a fix by arbitrary teamwalls
- Jan 18, 2009
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I would rather not add another spawnexit. I know what the problems are, and that it works in Goldrush and Dustbowl, but I don't know what solution to choose. Should I enable/disable nobuilds for stage 2/stage 1 and put the respawnroom visualizers at the front gates? Or should I put the respawnroom visualizers at the first gates right out of the spawn, so RED can still get in the setup building but not to BLU's spawn?
"arbitrary team walls"
I did state that visuallisers would be effective but less than ideal. The issue is that BLU have too many gate exits that each require covering from seperate positions in order to successfully prevent RED infultrations. It's far too easy for (even several) RED spies/pyro's to slip in unnoticed/unchecked. The capacity for these classes to chain-kill and ruin ubers makes this all the more of a problem. BLU can't realisticly cover all these exits, especially when they are supposed to be on offence.
I agree with the sentiment that a layout change would be a superior design change than visualisers, but the problem lies at the gates, not the spawn doors. Having a second exit doesn't remove the fact that RED can control this space. BLU maybe able to exit at another position but RED are still successfully spawn camping and controlling the inside of the setup gates.
Blu need better vision of the gates so they can spot RED moving into their setup gates. The issue being BLU just can't see when they're being flanked, especially when they're trying to push out.
badwater and goldrushes start don't have this issue because of respawn visualisers which shows it works even if it's not ideal. dustbowl's second and third stages utilise a setup area where BLU can control their side of the gates by a choke point that forces RED through major BLU traffic areas.
I did state that visuallisers would be effective but less than ideal. The issue is that BLU have too many gate exits that each require covering from seperate positions in order to successfully prevent RED infultrations. It's far too easy for (even several) RED spies/pyro's to slip in unnoticed/unchecked. The capacity for these classes to chain-kill and ruin ubers makes this all the more of a problem. BLU can't realisticly cover all these exits, especially when they are supposed to be on offence.
I agree with the sentiment that a layout change would be a superior design change than visualisers, but the problem lies at the gates, not the spawn doors. Having a second exit doesn't remove the fact that RED can control this space. BLU maybe able to exit at another position but RED are still successfully spawn camping and controlling the inside of the setup gates.
Blu need better vision of the gates so they can spot RED moving into their setup gates. The issue being BLU just can't see when they're being flanked, especially when they're trying to push out.
badwater and goldrushes start don't have this issue because of respawn visualisers which shows it works even if it's not ideal. dustbowl's second and third stages utilise a setup area where BLU can control their side of the gates by a choke point that forces RED through major BLU traffic areas.
- Jul 22, 2009
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what about moving the spawn like this and having the buildings between spawn and cp area blu-only and nobuilt?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/cp_mojave_b10000 (2).jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/cp_mojave_b10000 (2).jpg
- Jul 22, 2009
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they can't in thundermountain
as for dustbowl/goldrush, it's basically the same map with only slight layout differences.it'd be nobuilt because it'd be walled off with visualizers so that red dont go in there
also mojave already doesn't follow suit by being a 2stage a/d
there's no point in following suit just for the sake of following suit anyway
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Seriously Sergis? Dustbowl and Goldrush are not "basically the same map." Don't use that terrible generalization as evidence to support your idea.
There is no reason to nobuild anything in a map (sans a couple engine-related exceptions). If that's your way of balancing a map, you're doing it wrong.
I'm too lazy to read into what your problem here is, Hanz, so I apologize for not helping you out individually.
There is no reason to nobuild anything in a map (sans a couple engine-related exceptions). If that's your way of balancing a map, you're doing it wrong.
I'm too lazy to read into what your problem here is, Hanz, so I apologize for not helping you out individually.
- Jul 22, 2009
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1-1 blu spawn area: not buildable
1-1 point area: low ground path with high ground paths on both sides, defendable building at the far end
1-1 to 1-2 transition: indoor tunnels, one of the paths getting quite close to point
1-2: different, although base layout is the same turning right
2-1 blu spawn area: buildable, transitions to 2-1 through a ditch
2-1 point area: large building on the right with narrow passage at the back of it, some building on left, area itself rather long with another building at the end of it, right turn with easy position for a safe engy nest after it.
2-1 to 2-2 transition: main path exactly the same shape
2-2: area with a building in the middle, a path going right through the middle of the building, building interiors have access to said path and give high ground
3-1 blu spawn: buildable, larger than 2-1 spawn, has a flank path
3-1 area: rather different, although shares the same notion of having defendable highgound position very closely to blu sapwn exit
3-1 to last (3-2 in goldrush): narrow path with a high ground path following it, gets wider right before final turn, has high ground/niche on left for attackers to hold there, has small "bunker" basement thingie which is mostly useless
last cap: underground lower flank path on the left, drop flank on the right, good position for the sentry nest flanking attackers from the left.
both maps are essentially different executions of the same idea layout-wise. gameplay differences stem mostly from different gametypes and different individual building designs.
as for nobuilding, i hate nobuilds for the sake of nobuilding. what i'm suggesting is badwater-style spawnroom with spawning area and some nobuilt indoors area afterwards.
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