CP axle rc

[grazr]

There aren't really any screenshots of those areas because they have no detail, but i assure you the pyro is not an UP class in this map, which is pretty small all around anyway. Each intermediate area has tight corridors, though 2-3 is a relatively short one, 1-2 has a lot of close quarters fighting, CP2 specifically has a lot of ambush oppotunities and pyros are probably the best choice to defend CP1, short of the demoman.

If there is a class that suffers from the lack of ambush/flank locations it's the spy, but i still see people play him and it probably works out better that way anyway; since 1 spy is more useful/effective than 3 or 4.

But, play it Friday to find out for yourself!

 

[Tinker]

A few things;

- Mid is very hard to grab back once it's taken. This is mostly due to it having only two (!) entrances, both of which are similarly chokepointy. Consider adding a smaller but stealthier way to mid, especially since a single sentry can now cover everything.

- I'm not liking the amount of dropoffs around the second point. The higher grass part at the back isn't very often used, even though it would seem like a place you could play very well. I'd suggest just making a ramp up there from the ground, making that entire area more interesting.

- The vent. What's up with that? That entire route gives you a massive height advantage as attacker, without any chance of being seen and even if you are, you're easily defensible. The grate is nonsense, remove it - it only suits attackers even more for no reason (it's hard enough to rocketjump into vents) and it bugs when two people drop through at the same time.

- I really love the play on mid itself.

- The backroute at the left (from the attackers from mid point of view) to the second CP is fairly longish and allows people to camp the doors without being seen by people on the point. That's not necessarily bad, but it's very hard to counter if a demoman is just sitting there. Also it feels like the healthpak could be bigger (not sure about that) and be moved up to the smallest part of the tunnel (sure about that).

- In general it seems caps are hard to grab back once they are taken, mostly due to aforementioned drop offs which mostly favour the attackers a whole lot, plus second being a uncomfortably long way away from last if you want to keep an eye on it.

I rather enjoyed axle, and it has the makings of a great 5cp. Keep going!

 

[Soupstorm]

There aren't really any screenshots of those areas because they have no detail, but i assure you the pyro is not an UP class in this map, which is pretty small all around anyway. Each intermediate area has tight corridors, though 2-3 is a relatively short one, 1-2 has a lot of close quarters fighting, CP2 specifically has a lot of ambush oppotunities and pyros are probably the best choice to defend CP1, short of the demoman.

If there is a class that suffers from the lack of ambush/flank locations it's the spy, but i still see people play him and it probably works out better that way anyway; since 1 spy is more useful/effective than 3 or 4.

But, play it Friday to find out for yourself!

Okay, I think I can see where the good close quarters cover could be in the outdoors, and balancing that with lots of narrow transitions will be good. I still can't wait to try it

 

[grazr]

A few things;

- Mid is very hard to grab back once it's taken. This is mostly due to it having only two (!) entrances, both of which are similarly chokepointy. Consider adding a smaller but stealthier way to mid, especially since a single sentry can now cover everything.

- I'm not liking the amount of dropoffs around the second point. The higher grass part at the back isn't very often used, even though it would seem like a place you could play very well. I'd suggest just making a ramp up there from the ground, making that entire area more interesting.

- The vent. What's up with that? That entire route gives you a massive height advantage as attacker, without any chance of being seen and even if you are, you're easily defensible. The grate is nonsense, remove it - it only suits attackers even more for no reason (it's hard enough to rocketjump into vents) and it bugs when two people drop through at the same time.

- I really love the play on mid itself.

- The backroute at the left (from the attackers from mid point of view) to the second CP is fairly longish and allows people to camp the doors without being seen by people on the point. That's not necessarily bad, but it's very hard to counter if a demoman is just sitting there. Also it feels like the healthpak could be bigger (not sure about that) and be moved up to the smallest part of the tunnel (sure about that).

- In general it seems caps are hard to grab back once they are taken, mostly due to aforementioned drop offs which mostly favour the attackers a whole lot, plus second being a uncomfortably long way away from last if you want to keep an eye on it.

I rather enjoyed axle, and it has the makings of a great 5cp. Keep going!

FYI control point caps are approximately 33% faster than any other 5cp map, including back caps. Inreased even by 12.5% since a4 (mid is 12.5% slower than _a3). Back capping mid is easier than any other push map (as per 6-8 tests on playstuff.net).

Including a third route has been incredibly difficult. _a2 had one, but was removed because literally nobody used it, even more so than the longer secondary flank on the outside.

Playstuff has encouraged a second route between 1 and 2, reaching the room overlooking CP2. As it was felt ambushes were great but only possible by lucky survivors of intitial assaults on mid. This should be (and will be) improved and worked upon.

With up to 12 tests on _a3 and _a4a, tests at playstuff have shown good back and forth gameplay, a decent defence of CP1 has lead to quality back caps and reverse wins.

But i'll take all of this under advisement as this is one of a few full (24 man) server play tests (assuming server was full during test). I'm grabbing the demo now to view results in person.

As for the vent, it has a 1 second close delay for aesthetic reasons, playstuff have also commented on how this has impacted gameplay. It will be removed and thus fixed in _a5.

 

[Prestige]

The travel times felt a little short. What are the times compared to coldfront/granary?

 

[grazr]

66%?

The map was intended to be smaller, but rest assured the spawn and cap times are balanced. Plenty of testing on Playstuff has assured players and subsequently myself. Only thing not balanced is round timer reward which is too much, for both teams (map imbalance rather than team imbalance). Going to decrease from 5 minutes to ~1.

20 more annotations on my map, i noticed, thanks guys!?! Gonna check those out after watching the demo.

 

[LeSwordfish]

I personally felt that the final point was too easy to ninja. a scout can go through the vents, into the upper walkways, right over to the point, and drop on it and cap it inbetween respawn waves. Then again, this happened less and less once we twigged, and ended up with some balanced battles- the balance of which could have been thrown off if anyone actually used the vents in combat.

Off the top of my head i'd suggest shrinking the walkways down, so they provide less cover, and making the route to them from spawn more obvious. I only spotted it after retreating through my own vent.

 

[Tinker]

FYI control point caps are approximately 33% faster than any other 5cp map, including back caps. Inreased even by 12.5% since a4 (mid is 12.5% slower than _a3). Back capping mid is easier than any other push map (as per 6-8 tests on playstuff.net).

Including a third route has been incredibly difficult. _a2 had one, but was removed because literally nobody used it, even more so than the longer secondary flank on the outside.

That doesn't make a lot of sense, because if people can't reach a point unseen at all, how will backcaps ever happen? Both entrances to mid are in clear sight, and thus (especially on a watchful team or a lot of players) backcapping mid didn't seem an option ever to me. I'm not sure what your third flank was, but it has been suggested to create a route that exits underneath the point, a little more out of sight. It doesn't have to be a huge route, but more similar to granary's mid ramps, making it 2,5 routes to mid.

Backcaps isn't really something you should base your map on - at best, they should happen very occasionally, but the main focus should be the frontlines of teams. (Except if you mean with backcaps the point just being capped back by a full team, then, fine.)

Then again this might be a whole lot of theorycrafting by me, and I'm not too sure what you're audience is for now, whether it be pub servers or 6v6 or (hopefully) both, so a competitive way of viewing 5cps might've altered my view a little

 

[Mr.Blob]

The map in my opinion is very small and "chokey". Where are sniper's ment to be stero-typically in this map ? There isn't anywhere to "sit around." - This is for Engineers too. Once Mid is capped the game play moves so fast o this map that Engineers don't have a real use either.

One thing I noticed when playing this map:

I don't want to have to go all around the side of the map.

The corridors to mid are incredibly chokey / small. It's very hard to attack mid once it's been capped.
So really only heavier classes can do anything at all.

Second point -> Last point is a joke. Every single time I played this map yesterday, and on Playstuff the point was "ninja'd" through the vents, before Engineers could build, or even before our team could pull back.

In my opinion the whole map is too small, mid mainly. You need more space to move around in, hide, build stuff, and even to fall back to. - And as I said, the corridors to mid are incredibly chokey, you can't get through them with out dying. So, how to run away?

Edit: As a summary: This map isn't friendly for Snipers, Spies, Engineers and Medics.
And even after that, Heavies have trouble with spam in the chokey areas of the map. Too small, nowhere to retreat back to.

 

[grazr]

That doesn't make a lot of sense, because if people can't reach a point unseen at all, how will backcaps ever happen? Both entrances to mid are in clear sight, and thus (especially on a watchful team or a lot of players) backcapping mid didn't seem an option ever to me. I'm not sure what your third flank was, but it has been suggested to create a route that exits underneath the point, a little more out of sight. It doesn't have to be a huge route, but more similar to granary's mid ramps, making it 2,5 routes to mid.

Back capping has never been a problem in my last ~16 tests but this was probably one of the fuller team tests so this does beg some questions, agreed. The majority of arguements have been along the lines of the ease of back capping:

I've played several games where one team had reached the final point and their opponents have managed to hold, push back and go on to win the game.

That doesn't always work out well, though. In the game last night (I think it was), there was a constant back-and-forth, with first red capturing four of the five points, then blue pushing them all the way back but not being able to cap the final point, then red pushing all the way through (except the final point) again. This back-and-forth lasted until sudden death kicked in.

@ Blob

I suggested this over at playstuff but got this response.

I have been considering a third route to mid under the secondary route that comes out on the cliff ledge over looking CP3. This would be great for spies, as well. You might also be pleased to hear i'm adding a third route to CP2 from CP1 that bypasses the base's vestibule.

I have also been considering slowing the cap time at CP1 because of possible "ninja" caps but successful captures vs successful defences is standing somewhere at 9:7, and has 3 for and 3 against lengthening cap times at CP1. This leads me to believe it is balanced until further testing. If anything for a final control point it appears too easy to defend (noting use of a mobile defence with classes such as demos and pyro's). Which VFIG's quote supports.

This is interesting feedback as it contradicts over a month previous of testing feedback, but i was kinda looking for this kind of response because i was getting worried certain issues were slipping by.

I've never noticed an issue about class imbalances besides perhaps the spy having a lack of flanking manouvers between CP arena areas (though once accessed they are happy with sufficient flanking oppotunities). Plus engineers almost never setup teleporters. The map in general has been great for active engineers, almost exactly like badlands except less chances for turtling, which for 5CP i take as a plus. Teleporters have gone up but this is probably the most significant problem for the engineer, quicker than usual back and forth gameplay makes it hard to maintain teleporters, but with rush distances lower than usual because of the maps size no one seems to have complained. With areas so small sentries are incredibly effective at almost any position and engineers favour the mini sentries at 3 to 1.

Snipers generally favour behind CP2/on CP2 and where you've written "To here" on that image. I have to agree there arn't any obvious sniper positions and if there were, the back and forth gameplay makes it hard for an impatient sniper to just sit back and have enemies run into his sites. I have to say, it didn't seem like you had any trouble playing sniper after watching the demo's with you in, only does attacking CP1 become problematic for a rifle sniper.

I've had no complaints from medics and medic play has been incredibly coordinated, perhaps because it has been forced because of the layout, but i can't deduce that as a negative unless medics are saying they arn't enjoying it; and there are always medics on this map so i can't say otherwise.

I put a lot of your complaints about the team not knowing how the map plays. Such as defending the last point, which goes for any 5CP map really, the engineer needs to know he should stay back and throw up a defensive SG. Which was actually the case in the demo i downloaded, so it's not true that defensive SG's were too slow to go up in defense of CP1. But concerns about flanks at CP 2 and 3 seem justified and i'm working to address these problems.

 

[grazr]

Suggestions?

The site line may be a bit long so i may decide to have the tunnel bend, maybe dip lower and then higher to break LoS.

 

[Soupstorm]

As far as ninja capping goes, you should raise the cap time and move the defending spawn further from the final point. A ninja cap is, in the abstract, just a cap that cannot be reasonably responded to by the defenders. With these two changes, the cap can be responded to without subjecting it to being bumrushed by entire defender spawn waves at once.

[edit] I feel like the current middle path should be shifted further away from the cliff, exiting more inside the rock's cover in the first image. Otherwise there will be too much congestion, with all three exits being roughly in the same area.

 

[grazr]

Interesting suggestion, i'll see what i can do. The current setup was to satisfy people spamming rockets, pipes and arrows at the enemy exit a-la 2fort round start between battlements.

FYI This is a basic illustration of the original third route:

But literally nobody used it except the odd spy. It came out into the small path besides CP2, but had no access behind CP2, it just exited into the courtyard. It was a classic 2fort/hydro sewer route with medium health and ammo and good sentry spot for defence. Still, it never got used; i think because it physically seperated teams up too much... i can't say for sure, there wasn't much feedback on it except remove it to make the middle smaller.

 

[Acumen]

could you please stop the penis drawings !!

Progress is looking nice, however I always feel your maps need a little ooomph to not be so generic in certain areas. Not talking about flashy eye-catching stuff, but some detail/attention spots that make clear what theme/scenery it takes place. Hope you revisit some places in the near future

 

[Tinker]

I rather like the new third route you suggested there, go for it and see what happens. I'm not sure what the reasoning was behind not wanting a ramp up the higher areas near cp2 by the playstuff guys though..? It's similar to the ramp/no ramp situation coldfront's second cp has been in for a while, and allowing players to access things fairly equally made the entire point much more dynamic (and would make yours), imo.

EDIT: Acumen, to be fair, it's only a4a and it already looks pretty damn good detail-wise. I'm sure that's coming

 

[Acumen]

Nah, it's something that I notice on his latest projects in general, no matter what the development state of the map is. Not trying to offend or anything, just something that came to my mind when browsing through the thread

 

[grazr]

Yea, it is only a4a; i don't even have soundscapes yet. But Acumen is kinda right, my artpass didn't have a lot to offer besides generally nice spytech and a good 3dskybox. I was hoping CP1's details would have been real nice but it's kinda small and subsequently hard to see it all at once... also a rock arch instead of a bridge is something that hasn't been done yet (as far as i can tell). But i'm learning i really need to step up my game in any case.

That being said, 5cp maps have never really had an "oomph" factor, except maybe badlands unique approach to the desert theme. Whilst Icarus's detail contest winners look lovely, implemented into a map they have played terribly. The shack is plagued with gameplay problems that make it boring and difficult to attack and defend and CP1 doesn't offer much in interesting gameplay either. I'm kinda trying to find where i stand...

This will probably be my last alpha as it's already starting to look like a beta. I think maybe i just need to find some inspiration.

If people have detail suggestions then please say.

edit: I might remove the water behind the BLU base as it's kinda wasting resources. particle effects, water, reflections and large models that can only be seen whilst hiding in a corner seems off...

 

[Soupstorm]

It was a classic 2fort/hydro sewer route with medium health and ammo and good sentry spot for defence. Still, it never got used; i think because it physically seperated teams up too much...

Well there's your problem - 2fort is a bad TF2 map Seriously though, I can see it breaking up combat and teams far too much. It's too long, too narrow, and too choke-y to be particularly useful outside of CTF or a high-pressure chokepoint in an attack/defend map.

 

[grazr]

Soup, we're gonna test this map in a sec (so i have been told). Nows your chance to see the map first hand

 

[Soupstorm]

I really like it, I love how quickly it bounces from point to point. It helps keep the game from stalemating. I left you some feedback points too