An opinion on remakes.

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by The Political Gamer, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    After the newest addition to the massive pile of 2fort remakes hit TF2Maps and after looking at the new version of super goldrush something in my brain clicked.

    Most of the 2fort remakes accomplish nothing more then putting a new face the map but without making any improvements. On the other hand maps like pl_dbhights and pl_granary bring something new and interesting to the table. Heck I even gave some feedback to super goldrush.

    I guess I don't really mind remakes when they bring something new and possible interesting to the map.

    So TF2Maps.net what your take?
     
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  2. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    You basicly covered it all. Remakes have to show their value... reskinning isnt enough.

    2fort_upsidedown ;)
     
  3. Ninjilla

    Ninjilla L7: Fancy Member

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    But there will always be the people that say Remakes are bad, even if they do bring new things to the table. I think its a good way to get the basics of mapping down, while adding your own little flavors in.
     
  4. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    For a first time map I think it's alright, in no way does that remake need to be released though.

    And things like Super Goldrush, I kinda like those sort of remakes.
     
  5. Terr

    aa Terr Cranky Coder

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    In my biased opinion, what makes a re-make good is when it shows attention to improving the gameplay.

    ... Even if it makes people accuse you of "hating engineers and loving spies" on 2fort.
     
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  6. Passerby

    Passerby L2: Junior Member

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    i fine with remakes as long as the mapper changes things up a bit and try to address problems with the original version and if it's a remake from a differnt game people need to consider game-play difference.

    some of the original tfc maps worked pretty good with tf2 game play but a map like congestus would be horrible in tf2 due to the game play differences
     
  7. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

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    I don't care in the slightest. As long as people have fun playing on them.
     
  8. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I've really never agreed with that notion. How many times do we see new people editing valve maps and they have a plethora of issues? Most valve maps use more obscure things than even the best mappers usually bother with. Trying to learn mapping by editing a valve map is like trying to learn to swim by diving into the deep end of a pool. Yeah, you can do it. But you're really just overwhelming yourself by getting surrounded in every possible mapping aspect at once. It's better to start shallow... make your own map and get deeper into things as you go.
     
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  9. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

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    well, lately I have been thinkin about making a new game mode. (cesspool style)
    the thing is, I don't really want to make a whole new map only to find out the game mode is not workin at all.
    so I was thinkin about slappin my gamemode on turbine and see how it works. I couldn't dream of a better layout than turbine for this.
    I know its weird and that makes the map a turbine remake. how the hell can you possibly take a game mode seriously after this. so yeah, I'm kinda stuck in a dilemma right now. and I'll probably not do it at all since I have a lot of other map ideas.
     
  10. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

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    I learned mapping by editing cs_assault :V
     
  11. Jack Riguel

    Jack Riguel L10: Glamorous Member

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    I learned mapping by mapping. :/

    I still feel that if you really want to learn mapping for the first time, making something simple to start with. A deathmatch or orange map would even be OK (just don't release it). Start small, and build up. I started mapping in Zombie Master quite some time before I owned TF2, so I had a small amount of experience from back then. I started with a small arena, and continually finished, then restarted the map over and over again. Eventually it became arena_cargo after 8 restarts.

    tl;dr... Learning to map is best when you just do it. Make a box, make a tower. Anything, just jump in head first. What do you have to loose?
     
  12. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    Learning mapping also means not copy pasting parts from other maps. Including Boojum's prefabs.

    Please. Do it at least once yourself before you fuck something up and have no clue what went wrong.
     
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  13. Karnage

    Karnage L3: Member

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    when you're finally done working on your own map you can look back at older versions and be like "wow that was I remember that! what was I thinking?" You learn a lot from your mistakes and you have a lot more fun making something that is all your own.
     
  14. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    This. There are maps out there with ... issues, that maybe could be fixed if the mapper has a good grasp of layout. I would love to see a 2fort edit that actually fixes the gameplay issues without messing up the design or resorting to forced solutions (like that one where the "solution" was to make an absurdly long tunnel under the whole map from the sewer to the intel room... that I would call forced). Hell, I'd love to see said map get picked up by Valve as the new official version, but knowing how much players love their broken 2fort, I imagine that's about as likely as getting rid of hats.
     
  15. Ninjilla

    Ninjilla L7: Fancy Member

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    100 times this. Boojum's pack is a great shortcut, but it's not supposed to replace learning which entities you use when mapping for a certain game mode.
     
  16. Terr

    aa Terr Cranky Coder

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    Isn't that the point of prefabs?

    The way I see it, "do they understand entities or at least know enough not to mess up a working system given to them" is a separate issue.
     
  17. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    most remakes are not good, so people assume that all remakes are bad.
     
  18. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    They are there to save time for something that has to be done many times. People that know how to set up a 5 cp system dont realy bother about doing that for the 5th time and rather just use a prefab.

    A newbie that just copy pasted the whole thing doesnt know a thing of what he did and is most likely to mess up and ask what went wrong. they dont even learn what the prefabs do.

    And thats the problem. People think prefabs and copying of areas is the safe way that works but its not. You need to know what everything does and then prefabs are usualy the way to go.

    I personaly build everything myself even though i do clone layouts texture and sometimes even area wise. but i allways want my own work clearly visible. Gameplay cloning with your own twist isnt bad. Its recommended to me though as you will know what to expect (and sometimes its more fun to have no idea what to expect - that depends on the map and mapper usualy).
     
  19. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    "Why are your respawn times so short?"
    "Isn't it default? I used boojum's prefab"
    (No, it's not)

    "Why are we switching teams at the end of rounds?"
    "I dunno. It was set like that in boojum's prefab. Doesn't valve do it?"
    (No, they don't)
     
  20. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    You can bring new (and improved) gameplay to TF2 without rehashing a valve map.

    I have no interest in downloading another 2fort map with an extra route from the sewer to the intel room etc.

    There's absolutely no reason to release these to the public...

    I would have infinitely more respect for someone who attempted a fresh ctf map design (as opposed to a 2fort rehash), even if the results would be tainted by inexperience.

    Editing a map to try and improve its gameplay is fine, but you should execute what you have learned in an original idea.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010