WiP in WiP, post your screenshots!

[Empyre]

Here is the thread for YM's brush generation program:
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=19083

 

[tyler]

Shame that there is no way to use the construction theme that doesn't look kinda dumb.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Shame that there is no way to use the construction theme that doesn't look kinda dumb.

Wrong

/me points at backlot and vanguard and hardhat (more towards Vanguard and backlot)

 

[tyler]

I guess I mostly mean this chunky, unfinished concrete building look. Vanguard is probably the best example of it because it looks like shells of buildings being finished. Backlot is decent. Hardhat is just some construction shit laying around.

Buildings aren't built in 128x128 chunks like this and it looks bad.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Okay yea, if you do it incorrectly it can look chunky. You need to follow the textures and kind of break up bits and pieces of it along those lines.

 

[ScorpioUprising]

isn't granary's last impossible to defend in 6s? sure some might like it but to me it has always been a "bend over and take it in the ass" kind of point

Its certainly difficult, but far from impossible. If you lose mid, your med dies and theres stays up, then yes, defending last is going to be extremely hard. However, they have to uber out of the doors most of the time, and then the uber has to last long enough for them to push from those doors to the point itself. If you can juggle them enough, or have your scouts focus secondary targets so the med has to flash, then the uber isn't going to last very long and you can just hold long enough, on the pipe and such and push them back.

The other thing to consider, is that as far as comp is concerned, if a last point is easy to defend, chances are the map is incredibly problematic. cp_snakewater, cp_gullywash, and cp_warmfront/coldfront are all examples of maps where players complain incessantly about the last points being difficult to push and attack. If you can defend the last point easily, then that usually means its easier to defend last than to push the second point, which means you are incentivised to stay on last, turtling up like crazy and dragging the game out forever. Go engie, heavy, pyro, sniper, pick anyone coming in, soak up their uber like crazy, and do it all without ever putting your med in danger.

If the last is hard to defend, then when you sucessfully defend it theres a bit of an adrenaline rush, an assurance of your teamwork and coordination, and the wipe gives you a ton of momementum to push the enemy team all the way back to their second point. It feels so much better to be able to push back from a difficult last, but because the general power is in the hands of the attacking players, you'll more often see a game come to completion, rather than seeing it stale mate out for 60 minutes as each team tries again and again to push last point.

I think the best parts about granary last are:

1) Has some interesting height located centrally to the point, but not directly on it, so you don't just get an advantage by sitting on the point. The pipe is great, but you can't just sit up there and spam all day. If someone jumps you, your almsot always going to fall back which leads to some dynamic exchanges between being on pipe and not being on it.

2) Variety of options for pushing, many of which are disconnected from each other (sightline wise) so you have to cover multiple angles in order to defend effectively. They can sticky off one of the garage doors, but the other has to be defended by someone else. Likewise, they can just push uber out of the pipe door and jump the demoman. ETC.

3) Has some roles and locations for offclasses, without making them too powerful. Heavy on the pipe can be spammed by demoman easily. Sniper can peak the point from the window, but can easily be spammed out or dodged. Engie can set up behind the fence or to the left of the point behind the pipe, but either position can be spammed by demoman with very minimal effort. Spies decloak in rocket room. ETC ETC.

4) The overall displacement ground slopes gradually and is generally free of clutter. Combat revolves around either a few distinct props (concrete blocks, crates, fence or pipes) or it takes place on a reasonably flat surface, so combat is fairly balanced. It might seem boring or lackluster from a payload or a/d perspective to have such a flat area for a culmination, but as far as 6v6 is concerned it leads to clear and concise combat.

5) General purity. Instead of going for a bunch of gimmicky nonsense or overly complicated geometry, Granary (both at last and in general) is an incredibly precise and simple map from start to finish. This means the focus is on the players and their class roles, and less on the actual map itself.

If someone was going to be critiquing a last point on a 5cp map, I don't think granary is the place to start. Both badlands and granary are held up as pefect maps by the majority of 6v6 players, and barring some extreme change in how comp TF2 is played (har har, good luck with that), its incredibly unlikely they'll be dethroned anytime soon.

 

[Pocket]

The experiment continues. I was thinking about ways to replace the air vents with proper (if narrow) hallways, and I remembered a CTF map I used to play that had long spytech hallways with large windows looking down on the intel room — like the little upper room with the computer terminals in 2fort only bigger. They had more detail, of course, but I'm going to hold off until it's been tested before I add any more to mine.

 

[Prestige]

i really like that steve

 

[fubarFX]

I guess I mostly mean this chunky, unfinished concrete building look. Vanguard is probably the best example of it because it looks like shells of buildings being finished. Backlot is decent. Hardhat is just some construction shit laying around.

Buildings aren't built in 128x128 chunks like this and it looks bad.

but vanguard is still alpha ;_;

 

[tyler]

koth isn't really. what you've defined is good

 

[fubarFX]

koth isn't really. what you've defined is good

I never really gave koth_vanguard a proper polish, maybe I'll get to it eventually

but now I need to work on cp_vanguard :3

 

[Bereth]

I don't like the sign above the point fubar. I think that the sign is too low. It would probably restrict rocket/sticky jumping too much. You could also place a sticky trap up there or shoot rockets up there to deal splash damage, effectively negating the major advantage of the raised point.

 

[fubarFX]

I lowered those tvs just so the demo could set a trap there xD
I dunno man, the map is not very friendly for demos. I try to give them some stuff to work with. As far as rocket jumping goes, you don't really see soldiers rocket jumping on the point, a crouch jump works just fine. so yeah, I dunno man. I have no plans to change that sign but we'll see. If it becomes a problem I'll reconsider.

 

[tyler]

I lowered those tvs just so the demo could set a trap there xD
I dunno man, the map is not very friendly for demos. I try to give them some stuff to work with. As far as rocket jumping goes, you don't really see soldiers rocket jumping on the point, a crouch jump works just fine. so yeah, I dunno man. I have no plans to change that sign but we'll see. If it becomes a problem I'll reconsider.

Agreed

 

[grazr]

How does it restrict rocket jumping? Sure, if you wanna rocket jump right over the point, but most soldiers will be rocket jumping onto the point or onto those TV's. If you can get onto those tv's, that's pretty cool i reckon.

 

[Bereth]

How does it restrict rocket jumping? Sure, if you wanna rocket jump right over the point, but most soldiers will be rocket jumping onto the point or onto those TV's. If you can get onto those tv's, that's pretty cool i reckon.

If you're rocket-jumping off one wall trying to get to the other side of the room it is right where you want to go.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Unless your market gardening... or trying to bomb (in that small of a room?) I don't the sign will be THAT bad. The room is small enough that you can just jump and fire and still have the same effectiveness.

 

[Deodorant]

Ugh. I'm lazy, and being told I have to give my first map a total makeover for the second time doesn't make it better.

Well then. Sanitarium. According to feedback it was too tall, too small and linear, the area leading up the the hill was too easy to control for the defending team, the spawn needed a courtyard and there was a resupply locker prop that was clipping with the wall.

I've spent a bunch of time thinking and angstily procrastinating, and eventually ended up with this collection of blocks. It's simple and ugly, but I'd really appreciate some feedback on it before I turn it into proper playable houses. Making more elaborate indoor areas only to be told I have to scrap it all and start over again would be pretty harsh right now.

I've kept the central house pretty much intact but scaled down the pool room in it a bit. I raised the ground to second floor height, replacing the whole ground/1st floor part of the map with two sneaky tunnels. This means that the ground-level entrances you see here lead directly into the hill room. I decided to surround the central house with two L-shaped open areas, which in turn are surrounded by two-story buildings, here represented by giant blue blocks.The buildings are supposed to be continuously connected internally and have multiple entrances both from the courtyard and the area outside the central building. I'm also thinking of adding more walkable roof areas to them, as well as catwalky stuff connecting them to the central roof. Oh, yeah, I also moved the locker out a few units.

Hammer screenshot because I don't have any reason to compile right now.

So, um, does my reasoning and scaling look ok this far?

 

[bob+M|M+]

You should post that in your map thread, Deodorant. Unless they know your map, it's hard to give feedback on the routes. But one thing I can advise on, is is to walk each path, record how long it takes from spawn to cap, and balance it based on that. If one path takes 10 seconds, and another path takes 20 seconds, then the 20 second path needs a strong tactical advantage to make it worth the walk. Check out koth_viaduct for a good example. The fastest path approaches through valley, 2nd fastest on level footing with cap, and longest path approaches from above the cap.

 

[bob+M|M+]

Got my basic layout done for my contest map!

I dev-map with a VERY sloppy style. I got a ton of clean up to do...