Where are you going TF2Maps?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Wilson, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. Snacks

    Snacks TODO: Clever title

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    It's really hard to provide quality feedback. It can require a lot of effort to identify why something isn't working and what you can do about it. Then to try to present it so your message is communicated and doesn't anger the person when you point out all the flaws.
     
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  2. Tyker

    Tyker L5: Dapper Member

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    I can find myself in what Trotim said, but I want to add one thing:

    Do not only post feedback on what is bad or what needs improvement. Don't just show screenshots of things that need improvement. Also say what parts you like, or show what things you like in a map. We are only human, we need some praise sometimes too. And it's one hell of a boost to the mappers confidence and productivity if you let hem know you like what he did!
     
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  3. The_Ulf

    The_Ulf L6: Sharp Member

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    I must admit, I have caught myself falling somewhat prey to that kind of mentality before (to some degree). I don't think I've ever thought anything that directly cruel, but I guess I do get all self-righteous when I see arena versions of Valve koth maps or w/e thrown up on the forums here within glancing distance of the READ BEFORE POSTING ONE warning post by ABS...

    Still, I've never ever thought of telling people to quit. I think that's the most important thing here, even the harshest critique I've seen (although I dunno how much perspective I have on everything) has never explicitly entailed orders to give up.

    I still love this community, it's been more helpful than I could have imagined and I've always found it supportive, even of my zany noob bullshit. :blushing:
    I guess I had been more used to critique before coming here, though (I had some brutal art professors).
     
  4. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    Just because I've seen a lot of people defer to that thread when people do post valve maps, I get the feeling a lot of people see it (or misremember it) as a rule against doing so. It isn't, it was just a friendly warning that people don't like them but you can still post them. So I don't quite understand why every time one shows up people tell them to read it like it is a rule they broke.
     
  5. The_Ulf

    The_Ulf L6: Sharp Member

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    That's true and we'd do well to remember that, but it does almost always seem like no one's read it when they post a recompile...
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  6. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    A lot of the guys who're the ones to jump down the newbies throats are guys that arn't necasserily making maps here, they just hang around and contribute or don't contribute in other ways, or are just learning the SDK in general; they see the regular, more experienced members disregard the same ideas over and over again because they've seen them fail or tried and failed at it themselves in the past, then when these "other" members see someone new with the same or similar idea(s) they see it as an excuse to zealously get out the whip and lash out with (indirect) "how are you so goddamn stupid" remarks because either it makes them feel inteligent or because they cannot be arsed to explain/don't know how to explain. But feel like immitating the experienced members... because.

    People come to our community with ideas that usually have a simple yes or no answer. But the explination as to why is much more indepth or long winded. Which could mean X member simply saw an experienced user say the same thing and immitated them without really knowing what they're talking about, or simply cannot be arsed to explain properly. Having already answered yes or no to said question they lash out and tell people to take the initiative, biting off more than they could chew by answering a question they didn't have the patience to follow through with a proper answer on.

    Sometimes it's hard to enforce this when the remarks are passive aggressive (sarcasm) or indirect, or when said users are at least half correct in what they are saying. Telling people to take it easy just gets the chat room all riled up and self-defensive.

    That said, there are 3 main areas of TF2M, the forum, the chat and the servers. The chat room is generally just full of people goofing around and hasn't always been a place where people come and ask complicated questions. Questions which can't always be answered by the people in the chat at any current moment. Questions best left on the forum until someone appropriate can answer it properly.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  7. REEJ

    REEJ L7: Fancy Member

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    As a I am a newb mapper myself, I can say that I benefit a lot from the harsh but honest opinions.
    This forum has a sort of professional approach when it comes to feedback and I'm thankful.

    However, people could be more open about saying what they do like - as that is usually the only motivation source for beginners.
     
  8. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    True, I'm probably as guilty of this as anyone. And I try not to be, personality flaw I guess.

    But it does suck trying to get good feedback and hearing the same stuff over and over that really doesn't matter at that point in testing. And comments like 'this sucks', if you're going to go there at least give some vague reason WHY it sucks. I know it's just a personal opinion, but if you truly want to help say why. If you don't want to help, or possibly play a maps that 'sucks', maybe gameday isn't for you.

    I think most of the time mappers are more than willing to change things in their map if something doesn't work, and if you can give them an idea of how to improve there's a good chance they will use it, or it'll at least give them an idea on what could help.

    And like grazr said there is a lot of 'saying what someone else said' and a lot of times it doesn't make sense.
    example, I see this on every map, and sometimes it's true:

    sightlines. But part of mapping IS having long sightlines. map balance, snipers need areas too.

    My point is that commenting 'sightlines' at every single long spot in a map isn't necessary.

    Also things like z-fighting doors in an alpha map, etc... little nit picky comments in a map testing phase that is about GAME PLAY. Who cares if the door z-fights, that shouldn't even matter until beta when detailing is the objective. And when experienced mappers bring up these issues the trickle down effect happens... The mappers/players who aren't as experienced pick up on those as the things to report instead of things like:

    'sniper owns this area' - that's when sight lines become a problem.

    Or complaints that red can't defend an area on a team with 4 snipers, 2 spies and no engies or medics.

    I'm lost, where do I go? This one usually crops up within a few minutes of an unfamiliar map loading. At least give it a few minutes. TRY to find your way. LOOK for signs instead of just saying there are none.
    A good majority of the time half the team is playing and finding their way around fine and a few players seem to be completely dumb founded.
    That doesn't make it a confusing layout, that most likely means someone is just impatient/doesn't like to learn new layouts, etc...

    I think if experienced members take these into account before speaking on it then n00bs will pick up on it and get a better understanding of what the actual testing is about.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  9. Numerous

    Numerous L4: Comfortable Member

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    I think what we need is "we're saying your map sucks, not you" or words to the same effect, written in large letters and embedded onto a picture of kittens or something.
     
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  10. PL-7764

    PL-7764 L6: Sharp Member

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    Sgt Frag says it well, so I'll quote him here.

    I witnessed this very phenomenon taking place in the Gameday I played not long ago. The first map in the test had some scaling/design issues (it was an early alpha, ALL maps at that stage have issues, that's what Gameday used to be for), and there was one person who abused the site's map feedback system by spamming "This map sucks" at least a dozen times. At first people told him to stop, but then others joined in. I really thought this community was more mature than that, but looking back I guess that can't be expected from people who in that same match wouldn't stop whining about hats (seriously guys, it's time to move past that and behave like adults).

    One other point I like:

    This is something that's bothered me personally for a long time. If there are places where a sniper can single-handedly pin down an enemy team, that's one thing - there's definitely a (likely fixable - not grounds for "your map sux, quit now") problem there. But if there are one or even two routes out of several that a team can take where they're exposed to potential sniper fire, that's called balance. There's a difference between keeping the sniper in check and making him completely non-viable.

    ---

    But that's still just telling someone they did a bad job (which they didn't necessarily) rather than pointing out individual issues and suggesting fixes, which I thought was what we were aiming for...

    "You can polish a turd all you want, but it still remains a turd..."
     
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    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  11. Rexy

    aa Rexy The Kwisatz Haderach

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    I feel like it's been much worse in the past, and that attitudes toward each other and to new members has been better recently. Those of you who've only been around 6-12 months may not know how things were previously, but my general opinion is that things are much brighter than they were. On the trolling side of things, I'm absolutely sure it's been better, as certain individuals would go on trolling map wip threads and the like without any consequence. That kind of thing I've seen less of.

    I know what it was like to be a new member and how difficult it was to get things done, how hard it was to get people to talk to me about my work, and TF2 has become widely popular for community development on all fronts. New people are coming out of everywhere and have the same problems as anyone starting a skill/project--just remember how it felt to be new here and the trials you went through to be accepted before posting or deciding to step on someone's hands for a viewpoint you disagree with.
     
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  12. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    It's ironic because those people were called trolls because people couldn't take feedback
     
  13. Moose

    Moose L6: Sharp Member

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    I pretty much concur with most of the posts in this thread. People being huge dicks to mappers is just being mean, but leaving harsh feedback is natural.

    Consider the comments junction gets all the time. I cannot count the number of times people have called it a terrible map, or used it as an example of something horrible. Calling something bad or saying it sucks is just how people react to whatever they don't like. It's extremely easy to take that as an insult, even though it isn't.

    Giving a map bad feedback has the same connotations as saying you dislike gorge or something. You could appreciate the good aspects, and love the mapper, but still hate the map.
     
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  14. ardysqrrl

    ardysqrrl L4: Comfortable Member

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    I don't quite understand this comment. Are you suggesting junction is not a terrible map?
     
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  15. Godslayer57

    Godslayer57 L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Mapping can be considered an art; like photography. One person makes this photo which he or she regards as perfection. Others regard it as trash, some regard it as an ok piece of work that needs alot of work or some work, some regard it as near perfection, others have the same view as the artist.
    No matter what form of media people will always have their own opinion on what you have created, regardless of experienece.
    You could liken TF2MAPS to a lesson; Everyone is the teacher and the student.

    Now I going to take the next five minutes to think 'WTF' have i written D:
    I think I know why I hate deep thought.
     
  16. Languid

    Languid L5: Dapper Member

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    If anything, the feedback given on tf2maps is a bit softened for people's feelings. Obviously with personal creations people are going to be more sensitive than normal, but there's no need to pull your punches as long as you're constructive. Tear my maps apart, be like flame! (only dont get banned)

    And yeah stop with the 1 sentence put downs on (yeah kind of bad) maps by newer mappers. Your age is without a doubt too young for such cynical and depressing statements!
     
  17. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    My thoughts exactly. Mapping is an artists, and we, like it or not, are artists. Just in an odd, slightly 60's esque medium.
     
  18. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    I haven't noticed any uptick in dickishness lately, but I can certainly see two reasons why it might happen:

    (1) The new feedback system means people are more likely to leave terse comments in the server instead of detailed comments on the thread (not your fault, Geit; give people any tool and laziness will ensue).

    (2) Those of us who have been around long enough have seen enough good maps come out of testing that our standards have gotten more strict, and seen maps have the same problems enough times that we've gotten kind of exasperated with them (possible solution: more "the right and wrong way to do X" tutorials and linking newbies to them when we catch them doing things the wrong way again).
     
  19. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Maybe if TF2maps.net created a compilation of tutorials we could post/publish places. I mean, between the group of major mappers we have, I'm sure that we could a log of tutorials that cover the basics, to more advanced stuff (like what Boojs has), to even modeling...

    I propose we do this.
     
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  20. HellJumper

    aa HellJumper

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    Haha, isn't that what engineer is for?