Where are you going TF2Maps?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Wilson, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    (No names are used for obvious reasons, this isn't thread for flamewars and bashing certain people)

    I saw a newbie mapper one day, he was excited and wanted to get into world of TF2 mapping, he had this idea for asymmetric 5cp map, sounds good huh. Then out of nowhere people started tearing down his entire idea of such 5cp map and so newbie mapper lost his interest on mapping for TF2 as we just tear apart ideas that just motivated him to start trying this in first place, sometime later one of the older members here had even more complex idea for a map that had much larger chance to fail, people were happy and support him with every way possible.
    After witnessing these events, i asked myself, how did we get into this point?

    Not too long ago i decided to quit Conveyance, while at the time i was angry and could done things better, the reason why i did it was fact this community (Not all of it, don't get me wrong here, but part of it) seems to thinks poking the mapper every day, telling him to work on the map, is right way to go, it isn't. This isn't even the first time this has happen.
    I found myself asking the same question again, how did we get into this point?

    Now i throw the ball to you:

    What worrying things you have seen happen in this community?
    How did we get in to this point?
    What we can do to stop it?
     
  2. jpr

    aa jpr

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    Many successful mappers come from here, people who've had their maps made official and stuff, and it has probably created this image of tf2maps as a mapping site for the best of the best and their friends. In other words, we set the bar really high for new members. What's funny is that many of the people who flame new members aren't such pro mappers themselves
     
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  3. Fraz

    aa Fraz Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.

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    I've seen this type of attitude quite a bit recently (not condoning any unnecessary flaming/whatever) but I think a lot of it is down to the bluntness of a lot of the feedback people give. Some people just can't handle other people's opinions, and after all, they are only opinions. Nobody says you have to listen to what people say. I wouldn't say it's worrying, I just think sometimes people present their feedback in a way where people may think they are trying to be mean, or abusive.

    If people are giving their opinions, or feedback there seems to be people who get offended by it. Sure, they may have said "this area sucks", but if I saw that as feedback I'd look at that area, ask whomever said that area sucked (if I didn't already talk to them about it ingame or whatever) in steam, why it sucked. A lot of the time people don't have time to write long sentences while ingame testing. I know it's helped me in the past when people have said "this area sucks" I've brought it up with them and tried to brainstorm out some solutions.

    If people take everything at face value, then of course people are gonna get pissed off. Which is why you shouldn't take "this sucks" as "QUIT YOUR MAP YOU ARE GONNA FAIL"

    At least, that's my view on the subject. I don't see much wrong with the way people are acting, I just think people need to learn how to take feedback as constructive criticism and not just pot shots at your map. I'm perfectly fine with everything as it is right now.
     
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  4. Duke Silas

    Duke Silas L1: Registered

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    I'm a mapping newbie & I joined this community as this site seemed to be the best place around for map tutorials, resources & help when needed.

    From some of the threads I have read some members can be very derisive with their responses, even to the point of being abusive. There are ways of provided feedback that do not offend. Being positive, encouraging good ideas and pointing out bad ideas in a positive way.

    Providing feedback as construction critism is good as long as it is written constructively. Sometimes it's not clear whether that feedback is constructive or a pot shot. Being polite & showing respect to other members should be the norm.

    I get the general feel that this community has some seriously skilled & well known TF2 mappers that provide their time to help out experienced & new mappers (just look at all the resources you guys provide for us...decompiled maps, ABSs' pack etc). That's what a community is for, should it become elitist then it becomes a club and I feel that would be the wrong direction for any community. Even the best mappers here started somewhere ;)

    My 2 cents worth :)
     
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  5. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

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    I still prefer the (sometimes) hostile (yet honest) community we have to any other jerk circle.
    Sure there is a happy medium between these two but it feels sorta utopian to me
     
  6. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    The thing is that people just get way too hostile towards new mappers sometimes and that is one of the reasons why i made this thread, it is good if you are honest, but it seems people have forgotten how to be honest without crushing someone ideas and motivation.
     
  7. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    The first thing you have to learn for any kind of art is to be able to take and learn from feedback. Ultimately, the goal is to make a great map as end product - nobody cares about the mapper's woes and troubles afterward.

    If you make a map and someone says "this area sucks" (and he's not the only one mentioning it - a problem with TF2M feedback is that some feedback tells you how to fix something instead of what to fix when another solution might be more elegant most of the time), maybe you should check that area again and compare it to similar areas in other maps. Chances are it does suck and now you can tell yourself "this area sucks, I better update it". The worst mistake is to get all personal about your works and to never want to delete or change things that didn't work out just because you spent time working on it previously (dev textures and brushes help you not do that).

    Some feedback may not apply but when you know you have an expert mapper commenting on your map, you better listen and don't just go "wah but he said my map isn't the best when I think it is".

    tl;dr it's about the map and only the map, suck it up

    EDIT: And as to why mapping communities get more harsh over time: the veterans have dealt with a lot of maps so now individual ones got much less special, on top of that there's some fatigue in giving feedback, but fear not - the best feedback you get from players is how they played the map, so watch those demos
     
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    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  8. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    It is a fair point, but as i said in previous post, people just get way too hostile, you can't expect that everyone is going to just suck it up if you get too hostile.
    Also, you got to understand that not every mapper that comes here is used to get such harsh feedback yet, it is stupid to hide behind "People need to take things less personally" every time someone get offended by someone feedback.
     
  9. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    How do you get used to harsh feedback when people sugarcoat everything?

    The worst "feedback" is when people only circlejerk and constantly tell each other just how good they are, just look at the Polycount or Facepunch hat threads. There's like one good cosmetic item every 20 pages yet nobody dares to say the other ones are all pretty shit. So then they make even more bad hats, and even more, and never improve.

    Yes some of the comments are abusive or personal harassment and yes those people shouldn't say such things, my point is that "this map sucks" is acceptable feedback while "I hate your guts" is not
     
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  10. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I don't want to contribute much to this thread but I'd like to reinforce this. If you can't take feedback, however harsh it may be, you need to learn that skill before you try something that is so heavily dependant on other people's critique.

    The fact that such a large portion of the userbase here is 16 or under just means we get a lot of kids who haven't learnt to take criticism yet. (This is not to say that we should be deliberately harsh) They're full of enthusiasm and spare time and zany ideas but they're not full of life skills.
     
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  11. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    I am not telling you should sugarcoat everything, but people at the times just get way too hostile when giving feedback to map or dealing with newbie mapper, then hide behind argument "People need to take things less personally"

    I am once again due nature of the thread not going to mention names, but i seen certain people from this community who have treated newbie mapper in really dick manner, we once tested someone first map ever, it was ctf map, and someone disliked it and decided to tell mapper that it is worst map he has ever played, he should stop mapping and kill himself,

    "This sucks" is ok, what i said above is not.
     
  12. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    You arn't talking about Offtrack are you? (I do kinda want to remake that map...)

    I picked up mapping because I needed a hobby, something to let my creativity flow. I didn't have the patience to write, or read. I'm not the best of artists (painting and sketch wise) but I do like art. I saw mapping as an art.

    When I first posted offtrack I said right off the bat "Hey All, I'm Fr0z3n and this is my first map. So, be mean when critiquing." I knew that I sucked, and that I was not the smartest person at doing this, so i understood that I needed to listen. I did get a couple of comments that said "This is a horrible map" and "Way to overscaled" I realized that even though it was a god-awful, full of sightlines and 3 trains map, I still learned a lot, which to me was the goal of the map.

    NOW the moral for this story. It really depends on the people who come here. As much as I have to say that the "they need to learn how to take criticism" excuse might not be the best. I think for a majority of the times, it is the best reason (not excuse). Just going with what YM said, we do have a lot of younger mappers coming in. Yes, they might have horrid maps, but if they really want to do this, they will continue to map, not matter how bad the critcizers get. Thats what I did, and when I put out rundown I was happy with it, because it used what I learned with offtrack. Hell, I designed that map in a few hours and then made it in hammer in 9 hrs, and when it first got tested it got a "I like this map". I was so damn proud.

    So what I'm saying (again) is that we should probably remind others that there are younger people than them around, and they should be talked to in that way. No "Your map sucks" but instead a "Your making a Gravel style CP map? You should study how gravel did their layout, and see how it relates to yours" type thing.

    Alright, sorry for the wall of text, that is hopefully coherent.
     
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  13. Dr. Spud

    aa Dr. Spud Grossly Incandescent

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    Yeah every once in a while comments towards new members are really dickish.

    Especially when someone modifies an existing map, it's sort of ridiculous. Everyone is climbing over each other to get the chance to say "how could you post this shit, go fuck yourself", like it scores them some kind of credibility by saying that.

    Or like when someone makes a map fully detailed, and a couple people have to flex their infinite mapping wisdom by saying they're retarded for detailing before testing.
     
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  14. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    For the detailing before testing, some peoplejust like to detail maps, so as long as they dont mind doing it, i'm okay with detailing before testing.
     
  15. drp

    aa drp

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    Good discussion. But at the end of the day it takes hard work from both the moderators and users to root out disrespectful members.

    Don't be afraid to hit the report button on posts you think are overly aggressive and rude. I get an email every time that button is pressed and I read every single one.

    Is one of the site staff being rude? Feel free to send me a PM.
     
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  16. tovilovan

    tovilovan L6: Sharp Member

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    I've had this site as homepage for more than two years, and even though I'm not the most frequent poster, I try to keep an eye on what's going on and check out new maps and so on. The reason why I came here was to have a resource where I could find helpful people who would answer questions about mapping, correct my newbie mistakes, and provide guides and other resources like template maps and so on. And as such I think this site has succeeded. None of grazr's guides, none of ABS packs, none of Ravidge's or Acegikmo's library maps would've been made without this website or a similar one with the same friendly attitude to beginner mappers and the same will to improve the mapping community of TF2.

    I think the problem with this site is what people expect the forum users to think about their own maps. Most people - including myself - are expecting to get a lot of attention and everybody to help them out with their maps all the time. However, that won't happen unless you're YM and achieve automatic jizz as soon as you release an a1. You will have to rely on you own skill and experience as a mapper, and just keep on trying until you create something really good. TF2Maps will be a place where you can get technical help and a place to try out the maps, but youll have to do the mapping yourself.

    This is perhaps where the harshness against newbies originates. People who are working hard and releasing maps without getting much feedback get frustrated. Then they see these beginners releasing their first map 2fort_orange_xtreme_v8 and expecting to receive feedback. Most of us who have been mapping for more than a week realize that releasing your first map and expecting constructive criticism is just a waste of time. What you need as a beginner is experience, not people to tell you that orange_x never was a good idea. But rather than politely telling the beginner so, people have more and more turned to trolling and being idiots. This is understandable IMO.

    I'm not sure where I wanted to come with this. Basically - don't expect too much from TF2maps, rather enjoy it for what it is!
     
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  17. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    Your post made good points but...

    How is flaming and trolling newbie mappers in any occasion understandable?
    No offense, but that is just stupid, there is no situation where flaming and trolling other people is really justified and understandable.
     
  18. honeymustard

    honeymustard L9: Fashionable Member

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    Just be polite when you give feedback (appreciate how much work goes into making these maps). A lot of people are very rude in gamedays and the like... just be considerate.
     
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  19. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I think a contributor to the problem is talking to newbies the way people talk to each other. There are a lot of us that know each other pretty well, and say stuff that would be otherwise excessively harsh and mean, but the receiving party knows it is a tongue-in-cheek half sarcastic statement. New people cannot detect this since they don't know everyone's personality yet, so they simply see it as fully offensive.
     
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  20. Randdalf

    aa Randdalf

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    A lot of the time, the ideas are just silly, or we've tried them out before and they didn't work.