nightwatch
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- Sep 7, 2012
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You kill one person but it counts as two?
The Future of Compensation for TF2 Mappers: A Community / Valve Discussion
- Thread starter zpqrei
- Start date
You mention mutliple times that you want to have a mode where matchmaking comes in that is like CSGO. No one wants that.
You cannot:
-Mute people
-Kick people (you need all other players to F1 this, also if you participate in "too many" votes you will be tempbanned)
-Leave a game that is insufferable, tempban
-If the steam servers have issues and VAC wont allow you to play the game, you get a tempban for this
This will force you into a situation where you have to stay in a game and be forced to play it, while others make it completely insufferable. Playing without a full team of friends is a gamble. Here's what usually happens otherwise:
-If someone is upset with the game, he cant leave
-He will at first asked to be kicked which you cant because you risk a tempban even for positive participation (voting f1)
-So now he will make the game completely insufferable to anyone else that cannot leave. He will start chat spamming, then tking, then voice spamming, giving away your positions, throw grenades at you, and so on. At this point you can't do anything and are forced to hold out the entirety of the game.
I know this isn't what you meant specifically. What I am saying is that one should be careful what they wish for.
My idea of compensation:
-Leave the item system as it is
-Maybe add some sort of reward program that involves playtimes of people on maps
-Closer contact with Valve employees for all branches (mapping, comp, and mods)
-Valve should compensate maintenance costs for sites like tf2maps, alliedmods, etc. and offer tech support towards those sites in some regards (AM has been under attack a few month ago for example).
-Give credit where deserved. Accomplishing one's achievements/their portfolio and therefore recommending them to future employers is something that does not cost anything but is incredibly valuable to the contributors.
Regarding the financial stuff for mappers:
For me there's two ways to put it. Do you want compensation, or do you want profit? Compensation would be money for both the quality of the product and the time/manpower spend on it, suiting whatever the salaries are for the positions that are being filled.
Personally, I'm strictly for compensation.
Also, this is a delicate topic to some extend. Some groups that currently get less or nothing will (with more or less justification) think that this is somewhat of a luxury problem of mappers. That however does not mean that compensation is wrong. It just means that the problem is bigger than mapping-scene-related and that a more broad/low-level/generic solution would be the best way to solve both, the problems of individual scenes/groups and the whole community all-together.
On a different note, I'd like to compare the current situation to modding/mapping/whatever-scenes of other games/branches/companies. I don't have any data on that, so I tend to say that by comparison the way it is in Valve/TF2-world is kind of the highest standard by far, since I assume there isn't anything comparable yet. I think this is just something that started to be obvious for the workshop which is kind of unique.
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nightwatch
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- Sep 7, 2012
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The only way to work around people leaving would be to end the match immediately and ban the person who left. I play both CSGO and TF2 and I understand the shortcomings of the system. Bots wouldn't work at all (heck, they barely work in cs:go) so there wouldn't really be any other option.
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I actually thought of the following:
-Allow muting people
-Detect chat-spam and people throwing flashes to troll their team
-Allow a 3:2-vote to pass (maybe)
-The starting penalties should be smaller, but grow very quickly after 2 offenses
-Record kick votes against people and temp ban those if it comes up excessively
EDIT:
This is OT actually. If you like, we can bounce the volley back and forth via PM. If you're interested.
What about Idlers?
Valve already allows some verified communities to gain a % of money from model sales, if the modeler allows it. I don't think Valve, however, should go out of their way to compensate server costs for these communities out of their own pocket. That is the communities problem, not Valves.
They might not necessarily financially cost anything, but when someone recommends someone, it's based on the recommenders belief on if that person is worthy of their recognition. This comes from more than just seeing their work, but also any sort of relationship they have formed.
Many other groups have their own ways to provide money for themselves. Competitive communities can support themselves with sponsorships and prize donation pools (like a compendium like item. We see this happening in DotA2). Plugin developers can do commissions far quicker than modelers or mappers. Commission/free-lance level design work is not even worth it some times for designer because of the time it takes to complete a project, it's not enough to live off of in most cases.
I would like to remind people, this thread is talking about compensation for MAPPERS. I'm perfectly fine with conversation about other communities getting compensation for their work, but this is NOT the thread to discuss it in as it can create confusion. If someone would like to discuss compensation methods for other communities, I welcome people to open up their own thread in the Off-Topic subforum, or in their respective communities (UGC, ETF2L, AM, etc). Thank you.
For this to work one would have to sign up for some kind of compensation program and register the maps. Trade/Idle dont count of course, but regardless of the system, there will always be special cases. May it be someone who's afk. You could actually go ahead and compare the "playload" of maps in the program with official, valve-made maps as a baseline and go from there. People will be afk there, too.
As I was proposing a general solution, that's not contradicting. It just says it is justified to some extend as it is already in place to some extend.
Those costs are absolute peanuts compared to what Valve pays for updates.
I would like that to be done in a from as a token of respect.
Also, there's a mutual dependency between Valve and the communities, obviously.
I use stuff from others, so I credit them. Basics of social contract. It is not an oath or seal of quality. Obviously this is different from a usual (personal) recommendation. Employers know that of course and will decide what to make out of it. Again, it is something I think people deserve to be put out there. It is something they just deserve and is worth to note. As always, you have to judge for yourself.
This is not about providing money as a debt, it is about providing support when necessary. DotA is quite exceptional as you know, and collecting donations is not as simple as said.
That depends entirely on the work one specifically does. In either fields commissions can be quick or really big and extensive projects. Also the actual sourcemod devs are tasked with something that is beyond evil.
I can say the same for plugins.
I would like to remind you that I actually said why a general solution is in order in my opinion. Because mappers would profit from a bigger establishment/a general solution more than from individual smaller movements.
I am not talking about one individual group here. If you don't agree with that, deal with it. It is not OT since it is about how to help mappers the most. By establishing a solid connection which changes how Valve interacts with other people. You want something big and solid. I think it this would help mappers more and furthermore other people as well, of course. But it is obviously relevant to maximize compensation for mappers since Im talking about a big picture here which solidifies a connection.
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Maybe find a way for community maps to be released in Dedicated servers for others to play, allowing people to test it, and hopefully, spread its influence
Well, huh:
http://steamcommunity.com/games/CSGO/announcements/detail/230003535507901582
Dear Valve, TF2 needs the workshop last year.
http://steamcommunity.com/games/CSGO/announcements/detail/230003535507901582
Dear Valve, TF2 needs the workshop last year.
That won't get us money. TF2 Maps are free, CSGO ones aren't (per se) they would need a better system for monetizing maps.
Not directly, no. But CS:GO heavily relies on the workshop and it would be a big first step for TF2 mappers. If nothing else we could work on getting stuff curated while Valve works on whatever magic solution they decide to implement.
imo CS:GO doesn't rely heavily on the map workshop at all. Skins is where the money is generated. CSGO map makers are just lucky the matchmaking, which is what a high % of players only play, is so heavily linked with the operation maps. Even with an implementation of the same systems into TF2 map makers wouldn't see the same revenue gained I'd imagine, just because the main pub play isn't so linked to the competitive scene as CSGOs is. Also from being a part of the TF2 item making community long before the workshop til present I can tell you first hand, the workshop sure has made the community little by little a more bitter, calculated place over recent years.
Because there's no bitter people on tf2maps, right? 
Not bitter, no.
Just reeaaaaal salty.
Just reeaaaaal salty.
takabuschik
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- Apr 14, 2013
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Burger4games
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Thats sounds awsome Now Because Of you Valve Took as To The Next Level I will start mapping soon
Valve changed from 'we care about the core game and the community' to 'new update! featuring 5 billion cosmetics and ducks!'.
They should consider to put some alpha maps from the community in the 'Beta testing', I'm pretty sure it could be a really good move from both parts, the mapper have a lot of informations, and maybe a lot of feedback, while Valve does nothing but get some good maps from the community, and everyone is happy.
Of course those maps have to be really serious and the mappers have to know what they are doing.
That's the best compensation imo, your map is played, Valve see if the public like it or not, and then they can buy it if everyone like it.
Imo you're all talking too much money there, the best compensation for a mapper is to see their map played and enjoyed, money is a good plus, but it should never be the first incentive when you make a map.
Of course those maps have to be really serious and the mappers have to know what they are doing.
That's the best compensation imo, your map is played, Valve see if the public like it or not, and then they can buy it if everyone like it.
Imo you're all talking too much money there, the best compensation for a mapper is to see their map played and enjoyed, money is a good plus, but it should never be the first incentive when you make a map.
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The easiest way for Valve to latch onto an idea, especially when it involves their servers, is to have an idea where Valve can make money off of it. If they don't make money off of it, it'll be very hard for them to take the idea. Talking about how mapper can get money is one way of creating a way for Valve to make money.
Well you know, it's not always about money, except if Valve is the new Ubisoft or Activision, new maps should stay free especially in a f2p game, the only thing wich could work would be that crate idea, but it should defo stay something not intrusive at all, that's it, maps can't make money, except if the players want to purchase them to play them. A pay2win is not the solution, being intrusive with a lot of tricks isn't either.
Anyway, it's a lot of useless discussion for an old game where you will see max 3 new community maps added on the game before it dies.