Thanks for standin still, wanker.

[Terr]

They want to discourage it, but they're not going to completely ban it mostly out of lack of interest.

I disagree. I don't think it's a lack of interest, they're just being pragmatic.

Valve can forsee how difficult/futile it is to impose a "hard" technical solution, both from the perspective of false-positives (for people who play a lot) and also from the perspective of preventing people from hacking past it. There are many technical aspects of the drop system that can back up this interpretation.

If they could wave a wand and fix it so idling gains you nothing, I'm certain they would.

 

[StickZer0]

Hate to slighhhtly derail the topic, but ever since I got the gunboats, my skill with the rocket launcher improved considerably from being somewhere in te middle of the leaderboard to topping pubs. That's just me though

On the topic of idling, I don't care when other people idle, it's just I hate attempting to join someone's game only to realise they're idling. I do think it's silly that it's completely random for four of the weapons (I want my pain train!) but the drop / crafting system has been kind enough to me so far

 

[Fraz]

Hate to slighhhtly derail the topic, but ever since I got the gunboats, my skill with the rocket launcher improved considerably from being somewhere in te middle of the leaderboard to topping pubs. That's just me though

On the topic of idling, I don't care when other people idle, it's just I hate attempting to join someone's game only to realise they're idling. I do think it's silly that it's completely random for four of the weapons (I want my pain train!) but the drop / crafting system has been kind enough to me so far

You can view game info before joining them, I do it before I join anyone out of habit, incase they're playing a map I don't like, or incase the server eez full.

 

[grazr]

If you look at the time mralbobo posted, you'll see just two minutes difference between his and mine, It takes me several minutes sometimes to make even a short post since i skip around tasks all the time. He ninja'd me, and I'm not stupid like flame in trying to troll you, you genuinely seemed to suggest that the gunboats were only attainable by crafting, which I disproved. You seemed to also blame the system's lack of gunboat drops, for your careless crafting of your eyelander, thus giving you the appearance of an upset child eager to project it's own shortfalls onto others.

Point being, Mr Albobo understood the point that i was trying to make in actually reading the post, whilst you just read the text and decided to make a clever retort about how gunboots can drop in addition to crafting, rather than actually considering what i was getting at.

Yeah its unfortunate that you crafted a weapon you wanted, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the drop system, and everything to do with your own carelessness. So you shouldn't even mention it in any kind of rational discussion of the drop system, especially in a way that makes it look like you're blaming the drop system for your mistake.

I already said crafting the eyelander was my fualt, but the chances of me getting it back are subject to the same issues in getting the gunboots for the first time.

Its a random system, you really can't get fairer than random. I know the statistical unlikelihood of having a massive dry spell isn't fun when it's you, but that's the nature of random stuff, it's.... random.

But, I do think that they should add some kind of counter to it so that no one person is ever subject to a massive dry spell and if they enter a dry spell they get a drop forced to break the appearance of the spell. Although I don't think the delay between drops now they've updated it is big enough to warrant it.

I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this arguement YM. After attempting to disprove my arguements logic you then agree that the nature of "random" is cruel and unforgiving to some people and may need addressing, which is exactly my point.

First you tell me random is fair because everyone is subject to the same rules, but my point is that the system is not fair to players because it is random, not that any player in particular is subject to more unfairness. IE all players are subject to unfairness, some just happen to be luckier than others in regards to the system droping them desired drops (and thus have little to complain about, i got the pain train the first time i joined after the update, yet there are still people complaining about not having it). For hats it was questionable, but for weapons that actually affect the game it's more intrusive.

As a designed system it stands to reason that the systems design would be such that it would satisfy players and in some cases it doesn't. In other cases like your own, you're forced to circumvent the drop system by idling (even though you intend to make hats with the drops i imagine you'll want to keep 1 pair of gunboots).

 

[Fraz]

Random drop is random, but with the new rates you're probably going to find something you want in the near future. I've had two homewreckers since the update and only got a pain train just yesterday. I've still to receive a dalohks bar but I don't mind since I don't really play heavy. Random is cruel, but random is fair. People generally want things because they're new, or at least that's the trend I'm seeing.

Grazr, surely if you wanted the gunboats that bad then you'd have idled for them? You complain about the drop system when you could've given yourself every chance to get them by a drop, and if not, possibly enough items to eventually craft them.

 

[grazr]

Midget, idling shouldn't be necassery. A game that requires you to run it in the background to get the most out of it is not a very well designed game. I'm going to go ahead and make a huge assumption in believing that TF2 is supposed to be played more than it "isn't" played; the fact that achievement_idle is the most played map is offencive.

I've tried crafting gunboots twice and failed, i've tried crafting the eyelander twice and failed. Now i need to wait for enough demo and soldier drops to get the class tokens, slot tokens and scrap required to try yet another time.

I can only hope that the new rates pose less of a problem for people such as myself missing weapons. No it's not the end of the world, yes it's annoying.

 

[Retroid]

Never idled and now I'm happy - don't feel there's an advantage to those that have an awesome internet connection/computer any more. And I think I've been pretty unlucky on the drops so overall I'm pretty damn happy.

 

[Leminnes]

Would you be satisfied if Gunboats came with achievements, Grazr? If so, it's only one item. I think you can find the patience to wait for it. It, the community weapons, and hats rely on luck. All of them are rather secondary weapons that very few people use and give the user minimal advantage if any at all. I believe that's why Valve has left the lot of them to luck instead of guaranteeing you get them from achievements.

 

[lana]

Midget, idling shouldn't be necassery. A game that requires you to run it in the background to get the most out of it is not a very well designed game. I'm going to go ahead and make a huge assumption in believing that TF2 is supposed to be played more than it "isn't" played; the fact that achievement_idle is the most played map is offencive.

I've tried crafting gunboots twice and failed, i've tried crafting the eyelander twice and failed. Now i need to wait for enough demo and soldier drops to get the class tokens, slot tokens and scrap required to try yet another time.

I can only hope that the new rates pose less of a problem for people such as myself missing weapons. No it's not the end of the world, yes it's annoying.

I agree with grazr on this point. The item drop system is flawed and it should be weighted in getting you items (not hats) you don't have yet. Let's say someone doesn't have Natascha. The current system will take months to acquire a new one, and have a player at significant disadvantage (in defense of Valve's system, that's why achievements are there, but the gunboats have to be earned via random drops.)

 

[Leminnes]

I agree with grazr on this point. The item drop system is flawed and it should be weighted in getting you items (not hats) you don't have yet. Let's say someone doesn't have Natascha. The current system will take months to acquire a new one, and have a player at significant disadvantage (in defense of Valve's system, that's why achievements are there, but the gunboats have to be earned via random drops.)

Just as you say, that's why achievements exist. Get the achievements, get the weapons. I don't see how that is unfair in the slightest. It's really not hard at all to get the 3 milestones on each class. I say that while not having all 3 milestones on all classes (I've gotten all three on 7 of the 9 classes) but luckily enough, I've gotten the two weapons I haven't gotten from achievements have dropped.

But, the achievements are there. They are completely fair and not unreasonable. The random drops of extra weapons is basically there for people who either don't play very often or people who craft their weapons.

 

[lana]

Just as you say, that's why achievements exist. Get the achievements, get the weapons. I don't see how that is unfair in the slightest. It's really not hard at all to get the 3 milestones on each class. I say that while not having all 3 milestones on all classes (I've gotten all three on 7 of the 9 classes) but luckily enough, I've gotten the two weapons I haven't gotten from achievements have dropped.

But, the achievements are there. They are completely fair and not unreasonable. The random drops of extra weapons is basically there for people who either don't play very often or people who craft their weapons.

The extra weapons are fun, though. The random drop system does not encourage fun.

 

[MrAlBobo]

personally its always seemed kinda dumb that you require 11 weapons to create one...its a ridiculous amount of items to burn through for an attempt at one you want
seems to me like using 5 might be significantly more reasonable, use a class token and a weapon from the slot you want.

or...you know...just add trading then people missing items can get them from the people getting hundreds of said item <_<

 

[grazr]

But, the achievements are there. They are completely fair and not unreasonable. The random drops of extra weapons is basically there for people who either don't play very often or people who craft their weapons.

Achievements arn't the problem and anyone wanting specific secondary weapons "that bad" (as midget puts it) can usually farm them through the achievement milestones. Whilst with items like the gunboots, chocolate, homewrecker and pain train (or people who accidently crafted a weapon with no duplicates) are required to drop or be crafted at random.

These "other" weapons arn't there specifically for people who craft or idle, nor does any specific weapon provide an overall advantage; thus warrant using over another weapon (current weapon imbalances withstanding (equalizer)). They provide players with alternative tactical options. The gunboots arn't great to one person because they probably don't suit their specific style of play. But on the other hand, another person could increase their survival rate, killing rate and objective capturing capacity on them. For example, i don't use the buff banner because i prefer to get stuck into combat, relying on my sidearm for defence or picking off enemies; rather than spam for several minutes charging up a rage meter for hit and run tactics.

Not having a specific tactical option open to you whilst other players are free to exploit that option is frustrating, especially when it's being used against you. Even more so when you have no idea when such a tactical capacity will be available to you. Waiting for it is not the issue, i patiently waited for all my other milestone unlocks without farming, content in the knowledge i would get them after a couple days of play. Yet several months after the soldier update and several crafting attempts later i still have no gunboots, with no idea when (and if) i will. This is the issue (although i've repeated myself so many times i sound like an ungreatful whiney brat).

personally its always seemed kinda dumb that you require 11 weapons to create one...its a ridiculous amount of items to burn through for an attempt at one you want
seems to me like using 5 might be significantly more reasonable, use a class token and a weapon from the slot you want.

or...you know...just add trading then people missing items can get them from the people getting hundreds of said item <_<

Oh, and this. I would be less disastisfied if i could get more oppotunities to attempt crafting a specific item out of my acquired resources. 27 items just to try and get 1 other is... excessive.

 

[Terr]

While I still have a backlog of projects, I've been thinking...

Is there any niche for a crafting calculator? Could I write something that grabbed data from the TF2 backpack site and then let you simulate what you could make? (Preferably trying to always keep one of each standard unlock. )

Heck, maybe it could even calculate the optimal way to reach a specific item or hat, taking into account the results of failed crafting... Of course, this might require learning some new algorithmic stuff, but that's half the fun.

 

[Pocket]

Agreed. Randomizing which of two same-slotted weapons you get when you craft was a bad way to go about it. It puts people who want to craft, say, a Flare Gun or KGB at an advantage in that they will be guaranteed to get what they want, while those who want Gunboats or the Dead Ringer always run the risk of wasting metal on something they didn't want. The whole point of slot tokens is that the player can pick a specific weapon to craft.

I don't know what the best solution is. Popping up a menu of the two items might work, but it kind of goes against the spirit of the thing (if you can pick your item from a menu, why bother with slot tokens at all, etc).

 

[Leminnes]

While I still have a backlog of projects, I've been thinking...

Is there any niche for a crafting calculator? Could I write something that grabbed data from the TF2 backpack site and then let you simulate what you could make? (Preferably trying to always keep one of each standard unlock. )

Heck, maybe it could even calculate the optimal way to reach a specific item or hat, taking into account the results of failed crafting... Of course, this might require learning some new algorithmic stuff, but that's half the fun.

I would love that.

Achievements arn't the problem and anyone wanting specific secondary weapons "that bad" (as midget puts it) can usually farm them through the achievement milestones. Whilst with items like the gunboots, chocolate, homewrecker and pain train (or people who accidently crafted a weapon with no duplicates) are required to drop or be crafted at random.

These "other" weapons arn't there specifically for people who craft or idle, nor does any specific weapon provide an overall advantage; thus warrant using over another weapon (current weapon imbalances withstanding (equalizer)). They provide players with alternative tactical options. The gunboots arn't great to one person because they probably don't suit their specific style of play. But on the other hand, another person could increase their survival rate, killing rate and objective capturing capacity on them. For example, i don't use the buff banner because i prefer to get stuck into combat, relying on my sidearm for defence or picking off enemies; rather than spam for several minutes charging up a rage meter for hit and run tactics.

Not having a specific tactical option open to you whilst other players are free to exploit that option is frustrating, especially when it's being used against you. Even more so when you have no idea when such a tactical capacity will be available to you. Waiting for it is not the issue, i patiently waited for all my other milestone unlocks without farming, content in the knowledge i would get them after a couple days of play. Yet several months after the soldier update and several crafting attempts later i still have no gunboots, with no idea when (and if) i will. This is the issue (although i've repeated myself so many times i sound like an ungreatful whiney brat).

I would like to point out here how many people use those weapons: http://tf2stats.net/items/

Obviously people are getting them on a fairly regular basis. If that many people are using them it's not too difficult to imagine how many have them but are not using them.

I really have no idea what to say to you. You want those items to be just given to you or, as you seem to be implying, guaranteed to you in some way. I see little purpose in that because it is statistically true that you WILL get them at some point. It might take a long time, but you will. In the mean time, those "tactical advantages" are very minimal, very situational, and almost never happen.

Hell, I don't have the Chocolate, Pain Train, or Homewrecker yet and I have no desire to have them because I would never use them and I have yet to have been presented into a situation where I would find them useful. Gunboats I have but I only use to jump around my maps to test how rocket jumping effects my maps. In game, I just don't use them. They're far too situational and the other soldier weapons are significantly more useful at every point in the game.

Only thing I can suggest is... don't be frustrated? Have patience, play the game with what you have, and you'll get them eventually. All frustration will melt away.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

@terr, someone already did that. I saw it once when browsing the steam forums. Couldn't tell you who or what though.

 

[Fraz]

Midget, idling shouldn't be necassery. A game that requires you to run it in the background to get the most out of it is not a very well designed game. I'm going to go ahead and make a huge assumption in believing that TF2 is supposed to be played more than it "isn't" played; the fact that achievement_idle is the most played map is offencive.

I've tried crafting gunboots twice and failed, i've tried crafting the eyelander twice and failed. Now i need to wait for enough demo and soldier drops to get the class tokens, slot tokens and scrap required to try yet another time.

I can only hope that the new rates pose less of a problem for people such as myself missing weapons. No it's not the end of the world, yes it's annoying.

I agree with you in the point it shouldn't be necessary. However if you really did want them, then the logical option would've been to idle (albeit before the most recent update) to maximize your chances. I idled but only when I was in the SDK, or doing something else on my computer, I never left it on overnight or anything, all the time I could've been playing legit. I don't mind not getting every item, hell I'm fine without (most) of the new items anyway. My backpack consists of a kritzkrieg, blutsauger, axetinguisher, FaN, pain train and razorback (weapon wise) I just want to get my demoman hat and then I'll be happy. Then I'll probably save every drop I get from then on.

I also agree with nerdboy that it should favour you for weapons you don't have. When trading does however come out then everything should be fine and dandy, hell if I find another set of gunboats before you do grazr I'll give 'em to ya.

Valve could have done better with the system, but at least they're trying to fix it bit by bit.

 

[Tapp]

I'm pretty sure that valve's original intentions with the drop system were flawed. On one hand they were pulling a blizzard move on us by making us play the game, but without linking it to conscious thought it was taken over by idling. The point of hats is that they're rare. The fact is that somebody else has a hat which you don't, and they are incredibly smug about it. hence the whole setup with the gentlemanne's service medallion. Since making people play the game is distinctly out of character, I don't see why they can't simply give everybody the weapons up front, and give the hats based on how long they've owned the game, while still playing it at least once a month.

 

[Nutomic]

While I still have a backlog of projects, I've been thinking...

Is there any niche for a crafting calculator? Could I write something that grabbed data from the TF2 backpack site and then let you simulate what you could make? (Preferably trying to always keep one of each standard unlock. )

Heck, maybe it could even calculate the optimal way to reach a specific item or hat, taking into account the results of failed crafting... Of course, this might require learning some new algorithmic stuff, but that's half the fun.

tf2lobby actually has a craft simulator (you need to login and click on the stats button at the bottom).